Are you asleep?

I must not be communicating what I mean very clearly. I do not think this generation works harder than any other generation- certainly not physically. And yes, they do have the advantage of running water, indoor plumbing and motorized vehicles. But that's not what this thread is about.

I do believe that there was a window of time beginning in the l950's in the United States in which the American dreams of education and home ownership, as well as a secure retirment were more easily attainable by a larger percentage of the population than they are today. In my mind, that's what this thread is about.

But I could be totally wrong. I often am.

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There are always going to be the few exceptions out there when favorable circumstances, fate, or whatever just doesn't seem to be in the cards for somebody. You simply cannot hold these few exceptions up as the norm, however.

Yes it is more difficult for somebody to work their way through college these days than it used to be, but with student loans, scholarships, Pel grants, etc. it is not impossible. And it's no tougher to get a highschool education now and that costs no more than it ever did. All it takes is the will and a little self discipline.

When I left home to get married, we were flat broke and my only dowry was my dog. My mom, single at that time, nor my husband's parents were in any position to help us in any way. The wedding shower provided a few of the basics and then between the two of us we held down five jobs to get necessities such as furniture, pay off the used car, pay the rent and utilities, and keep ourselves in decent clothes and enough groceries and try to continue our education. There was no shame in that and it sure didn't hurt us.

Now that was some decades ago and most of our peers were in the same boat. Times did change and, along with student loans, scholarships, and grants, we were in a position to help our kids get a higher education more quickly than they would have been able to do so, but we also allowed them to taste a bit of poverty before they became successful. Within reason it is a powerful motivator.

It never occurred to us and it never occurred to them that making it or breaking it was anybody's responsibility but ours.

And I don't believe for a minute that the American dream is dead or beyond the reach of anybody with the determination and motivation to go after it. It might require tasting a bit of poverty, holding a 'degrading' job or two, and sacrificing some fun and games along the way, but I think most who do it that way don't regret it and think it was all quite worth it.

And, like Aiden, I could be wrong and often am. But I think we ourselves put up most of the roadblocks in our lives via the choices we make.

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Foxfyre- I'm basing my opinion (and that's all it is) on the fact that the median family income in the United States is $30,000. The median cost of a house in the US has now topped $200,000. I don't know if things have changed very much, but I know when we bought our last house, we were advised to keep our mortgage to within 2.5 times our annual income. For those who have the average income, buying the average house is very difficult, if not impossible.

Do you see the discrepancy? Do you see how it would be harder for someone to buy a house that costs seven times their yearly income (if you stuck to the averages as a standard) than it would in my father's day when his mortgage probably wasn't more than two or three times his yearly income (I'm not sure, I'll have to ask him, but I'm assuming he made at least $8,000 a year when he bought his first house).

It's not always about laziness, or greed or selfishness. Some of it is about how economics have changed. And maybe I have a skewed view, because I do work with and have always worked with economically disadvantaged people, but for every one person who I've seen that I say to myself, 'They could change that if they worked harder'- I see three about whom I say to myself, 'There but for the grace of God go I'.

And I think we'll see the real crisis when the baby boomers hit retirement, as the first wave will in just a few years.

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Well, according to the January census report, your numbers are a bit off:

Housing units, 2005 124,521,886

Homeownership rate, 2000 66.2% (At the end of 2006, home ownership was at an all time high by the way)

Housing units in multi-unit structures, percent, 2000 26.4%

Median value of owner-occupied housing units, 2000 $119,600

Households, 2000 105,480,101

Persons per household, 2000 2.59

Median household income, 2003 $43,318 (That's up at this time.)
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

In Kansas, parts of Texas, Arkansas, parts of New Mexico, and many many other places, you can still buy a very lovely 3-bedroom home in a good neighborhood near good schools for well under $100,000. Where my daughter lives in California, the story is very different. But people don't have to live in California.

Odessa TX may not be the most glamorous place in the world to live, but the cost of living there is quite reasonable and salaries are very good. If you move there you might have to live in a mobile home for awhile, though, because they can't build houses or apartments fast enough for all the people moving there.

It really isn't how hard we work but more a matter of the choices we make. I've also worked with the economically disadvantaged and there are some heart breaking stories to tell, but I've also seen the difference it made when different choices were made. It isn't helpful in all cases, but with the young and reasonably able-bodied, we don't do them any favors when we discourage them from making those better choices.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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Foxfyre-I was looking at average housing and said median. I can't find the link where I saw what I thought said that the median US income was 30,000. But I do agree the median would be a better and more accurate indicator than the average.

It's reassuring to see that things are not so dire as I thought. Thanks for posting those facts.

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aidan wrote:

Foxfyre-I was looking at average housing and said median. I can't find the link where I saw what I thought said that the median US income was 30,000. But I do agree the median would be a better and more accurate indicator than the average.

It's reassuring to see that things are not so dire as I thought. Thanks for posting those facts.

Well you're welcome. I wish they were more up to date and reflected the current median home cost for instance. And median is median and is not a good indicator of the overall picture. Economics are rarely static, and poverty is sometimes a relative term.

I spent a wonderful summer in West Virginia awhile back in some of the poorest Appalachian counties. By median U.S. standards so far as income goes, most of the people were living in crushing poverty. But in reality almost all owned their land and very modest homes, few had mortgages, almost all owned or had access to an automobile, they all had gardens and grew or raised much of their food, and widespread hunger or homelessness was at a minimum. It was not a problem free environment by any means, but I think few of the people felt like they were poor.

People with such low incomes in Santa Cruz County or Los Angeles County California would be living under bridges and would scarcely be able to afford enough necessities to keep themselves alive.

We should always be alert to care for those who are helpless to help themselves. But I sure think we should be practicing tough love with those who can.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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Quote:

When I left home to get married, we were flat broke and my only dowry was my dog. My mom, single at that time, nor my husband's parents were in any position to help us in any way. The wedding shower provided a few of the basics and then between the two of us we held down five jobs to get necessities such as furniture, pay off the used car, pay the rent and utilities, and keep ourselves in decent clothes and enough groceries and try to continue our education. There was no shame in that and it sure didn't hurt us...

And I don't believe for a minute that the American dream is dead or beyond the reach of anybody with the determination and motivation to go after it. It might require tasting a bit of poverty, holding a 'degrading' job or two, and sacrificing some fun and games along the way, but I think most who do it that way don't regret it and think it was all quite worth it.

I think both Aidan and LockeD are speaking of the purchasing power of the dollar (inflation). Squinney's $20,000 job enabled her to live in comfort 20 years ago. That's about $1,250 a month, after taxes of approx. 25%. Today, the average price of a one-bedroom apartment is close to $850 in major cities where the clerical jobs are. Add on to that the cost of food, utilities, health insurance, renter's insurance, transportation (public or car, insurance, fees and maintenance). That does not leave much room for anything extravagant like cable TV, cell telephones, and other luxuries most people view as necessitates. You don't get those with that $9.61 ($20,000)an hour job unless you are working two of them.

That $20,000 comfy salary 20 years ago, leaves you as one of the working poor in this country, especially if your rent should be increased, an illness occurs or transportation breaks down. The costs of food, utilities, and health care have been rising much faster than salaries.

Moreover, this is not just regarding the new generation of graduates heading into the workforce. Many people have already earned all those luxurious cable TVs, cell phones, fancy cars and other symbols of success. With all the higher paying service industry and clerical jobs going overseas, many well-established workers find themselves having to work 2 and 3 jobs just to stay even now. If you were one of many who were sucked into the American Dream fed by the banking industry's credit card drug, you're now hitting bottom and need to get off that addiction before it destroys you.

For those who saw the writing years ago and cleaned up all their debt, they are watching their grasp of those items they worked so hard to earn, slowly slip away from them. People are not working 2 or 3 jobs to feed their ambition. They are working 2 or 3 jobs to tread water and still feed themselves. More and more people's heads are dipping under water. If anything wears out, they cannot afford to replace it.

That is what LockeD and Aidan are choking on. People in the service industry, the working poor, are slipping into poverty because the middle class is losing ground right along with them and employers aren't stupid. They are hiring the experienced, veteran job seeker (all those middle managers that lost their jobs) for entry-level jobs. It is not about ambition and wishing to increase financial status. It is about survival. Anybody remember the stories we heard in school. Computers are the future of America. Computers will not eliminate jobs, they will enable Americans to work smarter and more efficiently, and provide more free time for them to enjoy their time off away from their jobs. We are working smarter and more efficiently, but we sure are not seeing any of that free time. All we are seeing is stagnant rates of pay while basic costs of living skyrocket and our good-paying jobs go elsewhere.

If you have a great job, best hold on to it. You will not find another one that pays as well for the same kind of work. To do so, you'll have to move out of state, away from family much like families did in the '50's when people had to move off the farms and find jobs in the cities to maintain the family farm. And even then, don't count on the salaries remaining high while the cost of living is lower. People suggest migrating to areas with a lower cost of living without also looking at the fact that salaries paid in those areas are also lower. The purchasing power of your dollar still remains marginal.

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Butrflynet, I'm not buying the doom and gloom scenarios painted by the left. The U.S. standard of living has increased steadily over the last century for all those who follow the simply prescription:
1) Get a minimum of a HS diploma and make sure you get an education in th process which includes a basic understanding of math, economics, and proper use of the English language.
2) Stay away from illegal drugs and activities.
3) Don't have kids until you are married and financially self sustaining.
4) Be willing to take the grubby jobs to establish references, develop a work ethic, and learn a trade or marketable skills.
5) Expect to earn what you have and don't expect others to support you.

Those who follow that prescription are enjoying one of the world's higest standards of living, enjoy unprecedented leisure and have the means to enjoy it, and have never had a more bright future.

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Re: LockeD

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BumbleBeeBoogie"]LockeD, Welcome to A2K. Don't become discouraged. I understand your frustration and agree with some of your points, if not your posting style. A less belicose style might be a better method of communication, especially to those who think a person your age should be seen and not heard.

LockeD should just remember the old saying "out of the mouths of babes" and carry on. Been interesting reading and I agree with much which has been said by BBB and others.

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BumbleBeeBoogie:

Quote:

The primarily Republican administrations have reversed most of the benefits of the G.I. Bill. Their public policies have made the cost of higher education too high for most people. Decent home ownership is becoming more difficult for far too many people. Good paying jobs are harder and harder to find.

How did they do this. I just got back fro deployment in Oct and found out I have more educational benefits then I know what to do with. They are also good for up to 10 years and when you deploy that time starts over.

Can you please explain to me how the govt controls what a college charges for their tution? Last time I checked Univeristies ran their own tution costs and told you what you were going to pay, it didn't come from the WH.

Good jobs are out there, you just have to have the education or work experience to get those jobs. Take my company for instance. We are always hiring and the inflow is non-stop. A training class for the internet and phone portion of my company is 6 weeks long and every 6 weeks the class is full.

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Their economic policies are a disaster as we lose our industrial base to foreign countries. We can't even find enough manufacturers to produce the number of armored vehicles needed to protect our troops in Iraq-Afghanistan. Our troops are dying while waiting for them to come out of the one factory in the U.S.

I don't mean to mention the C word but Clinton started allowing those companies to ship out and Bush hasn't done anything since to stop them. The full blame doesn't fall on Bush for this one but is shared by the previous admin.

The Hummer is made by single company and as far as I know, they are always putting out new Hummers for military use. The up armor kit is produced by another company and I don't know how many factories they have that make them. Contractors put a majority of the up armor kits on the Hummers, a friend of mine has that job as his civilian job and works on Chinooks as his military job.

[/QUOTE]They bow to the demands of their special interest political bases and block efforts to free us of reliance on foreign oil imports. They retard medical science advancements to pander to those they depend on for votes to retain power. It's ironic that they use wedge issues to pander to the Religious Right to retain their power so they can promote and protect the Corporate criminal classes.

Quote:

This isn't special to any political party or presidental admin. THEY ALL BOW TO SPECIAL INTERESTS. Its almost part of their job description to do so.

Please explain how they retard medical science advancements. If you are refering to stem cell testing, they have only limited govt funding to stem cell research. Private stem cell research isn't hindered except where ethics comes to play. When was the last time the US govt had successful medical research come to the market? The medical industry has been run by private companies for decades and they do a much better job of research then the govt could do anyways.

Are you going to complain about the left and their catering to their special interest groups? Illegal immigration, gay rights groups, global warming fanitcs, anti-war groups.

Once these groups get their hands on the politicans they are just as stuck as their counterparts. Look at the actions of Code Pink since the Dems took control. They have done nothing but harass Nancy Pelosi since she took her position.

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Sadly, the goal of most conservative Republicans is to reverse all of the Democrat President Franklin Roosevelt administration policies and take us back to the days of Republican President Herbert Hoover policies.

So you think these policies by Roosevelt are the be all and end all of political policies? You don't think some of them are out of date?

Quote:
If the voters don't wise up soon, we are f**ked!

I agree with you but not for the same reasons.

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Quote:

Can you please explain to me how the govt controls what a college charges for their tution? Last time I checked Univeristies ran their own tution costs and told you what you were going to pay, it didn't come from the WH.

She said administrations, not just the White House.

The Republicans running Texas basically doubled my tuition during my time in college by cutting state funding time after time, while at the same time giving massive tax breaks to oil and energy companies in the state. They also cut funding for pell grants and loans on the Federal level simultaneously. This all has the effect of raising tuition for students.

To say that the universities decide what their own tuition costs are is laughable and displays a lack of knowledge of how this system works.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Can you please explain to me how the govt controls what a college charges for their tution? Last time I checked Univeristies ran their own tution costs and told you what you were going to pay, it didn't come from the WH.

She said administrations, not just the White House.

The Republicans running Texas basically doubled my tuition during my time in college by cutting state funding time after time, while at the same time giving massive tax breaks to oil and energy companies in the state. They also cut funding for pell grants and loans on the Federal level simultaneously. This all has the effect of raising tuition for students.

To say that the universities decide what their own tuition costs are is laughable and displays a lack of knowledge of how this system works.

Cycloptichorn

Your trying to tell me that don't decide? Well then how come every year we hear about university here or university there having to raise tution costs? Who pays the teachers and decides how much they will charge per credit?

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Baldimo wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Can you please explain to me how the govt controls what a college charges for their tution? Last time I checked Univeristies ran their own tution costs and told you what you were going to pay, it didn't come from the WH.

She said administrations, not just the White House.

The Republicans running Texas basically doubled my tuition during my time in college by cutting state funding time after time, while at the same time giving massive tax breaks to oil and energy companies in the state. They also cut funding for pell grants and loans on the Federal level simultaneously. This all has the effect of raising tuition for students.

To say that the universities decide what their own tuition costs are is laughable and displays a lack of knowledge of how this system works.

Cycloptichorn

Your trying to tell me that don't decide? Well then how come every year we hear about university here or university there having to raise tution costs? Who pays the teachers and decides how much they will charge per credit?

They raise the tuition costs in main part because the state provides less funding.

The state and the schools together decide what the appropriate tuition levels are. It isn't an independent thing on the part of the schools.

You are trying to tell me that cutting state funding to schools doesn't affect the amount tuition costs?

Cycloptichorn

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Are you talking about private or public universities?

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Public - Private universities generally aren't funded by the state.

Also, the vast majority of college students attend public universities, so it's rational to focus on them.

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

Butrflynet, I'm not buying the doom and gloom scenarios painted by the left.

That's good, because I didn't write with any partisan paint. I could care less what any politician says about it while in their safe little bubble. It concerns me that "paint" is the first thing that comes to your mind when reading about the struggles of imperfect people.

What I wrote were and are my own personal experiences and observations of people's lives around me. I hope your bubble never pops and that, if it does, there are no perfect people pointing and urging penalties because of the quality of the patch job you did to try to repair it.

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Adults
Yo, homie G dawg mister fancy pantz, let me let you in on a secret: Todays young are too depressed and suppressed by their older counter parts to partake in conversations like these, so they revert to their own slang and way of life to make themselves diffrent in your eyes as well as your mind. However, you're talking to one "Young one" that is pushing foreward through the headaches to learn about the world around him and talk to other people to find their views and understands of such things.

You should be proud, not telling me to be quite, but telling me the problems or impossiblities of my views, instead older poeple with simular views come in and argue my point, and yet you still instist on me "being seen yet not heard." I'm sorry, but this is rediculus and childish of you. If you can't see me as a person with idealistic, however intelligent, views then your narrow minded, close minded, and foolish. I believe that'd make you the child and me the open minded adult listening to you whine about me being in the same forum as you.

Now that is behind us, let me move on to better points.

Do you not think that having a college education is more in demand now than it was when you were trying to find a decient job? I laugh at you if you think not. Generally, the amount of funds needed to get 1 year of college is the same it would cast a family of four to live for a year, not confortibly, but generally, and that's the cheapest price your going to find.

Think of it this way, if the government funded colleges completely and allowed those who passed the tests that see if you're smart enough, to go to college without costs at all, the technolegy, which is associated with wealth now days, in this country would sky rocket. Just ponder that for an hour before you try to shoot this "Young one" Down agian.

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Butrflynet wrote:

Quote:
Butrflynet, I'm not buying the doom and gloom scenarios painted by the left.

That's good, because I didn't write with any partisan paint. I could care less what any politician says about it while in their safe little bubble. It concerns me that "paint" is the first thing that comes to your mind when reading about the struggles of imperfect people.

What I wrote were and are my own personal experiences and observations of people's lives around me. I hope your bubble never pops and that, if it does, there are no perfect people pointing and urging penalties because of the quality of the patch job you did to try to repair it.

I also write from my own personal experiences and observations and hands on work with people who are truly economically disadvantaged. So don't be so sure that I, another imperfect person, am just being myopic or sanctimonious or looking through rose colored glasses in my opinions about what it takes to get ahead in the past, in the present, and in the future. I don't think we do anybody any favors when we tell them they can't, they aren't able, they won't have a chance etc. etc. etc.

Yes, a college degree is important now, especially if one wants to be in a discipline that requires it. But there are many MANY young people out there who are supporting themselves without one. Some are doing the college thing on line, night school, or as they can pick up classes now and then, but not all are doing that. There are still well paid trades out there that do not require a degree.

Those oil field jobs I mentioned earlier, for instance, aren't even requiring a GED if the person can read, follow directions, and do simple math.

It's funny though, that so often if you get somebody thinking I can, instead of constantly showing or telling him/her how disadvantaged s/he is, most do get that GED and sometimes more. Few things breed success more than a taste of success.

Yes, a moral society helps those who are unable to help themselves. But we sure don't do anybody any favors by telling those who can that they can't.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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I hereby nominate the one and only "LockeD" for providing some of the most entertaining and thought provoking conversation ever witnessed on A2K. Like bees to a honeycomb, everyone wants to be so helpful with suggestions, advice, and encouragement. LockeD has found a truly valuable source of help right here.

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Locked wrote:

Quote:

Do you not think that having a college education is more in demand now than it was when you were trying to find a decient job? I laugh at you if you think not. Generally, the amount of funds needed to get 1 year of college is the same it would cast a family of four to live for a year, not confortibly, but generally, and that's the cheapest price your going to find.

Another good point, and an indisputable fact.

Foxfyre-I don't advocate telling anyone "you can't" or "forget about it because it's too hard and you won't be able to do it", and in fact would never do that.
But on the flip side saying, "I did it, so you should be able to as well" is not as helpful as it could be either, if you're not recognizing the different barriers and obstacles that might be in place for people today that weren't in place when you did whatever you managed to do.

I think Locked is just casting out ideas here. I'm not saying I agree with all of them, but I do agree s/he's identifying real issues.

Quote:

Those oil field jobs I mentioned earlier, for instance, aren't even requiring a GED if the person can read, follow directions, and do simple math.

I don't know you at all- and I personally don't attribute negative characteristics to people until I know them- but this strikes me as condescending. And the reason it does is because it seems to say to me that you believe certain people should just be satisfied with a certain job. It seems to me that you're saying that certain people should just be happy to put a cap on their ambition or dreams for college and an education (because they don't have the money for it) and settle for a GED, $25 an hour, with little hope of advancement but lots of overtime.

I know somebody has to do these jobs-but it seems disingenuous to me when someone from the comfortable middle class (which again, I'm assuming describes your situation-I could be wrong) dictates or decrees what they believe should be enough for people who have come from less-and it pretty much sentences them to a lifetime of having less. This sounds to me that although you're not saying they can't or they're unable- you're assuming they probably don't want to.

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Are you asleep?

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