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FIRST A2K STRAW POLL White House 2008

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 01:14 pm
Obama's overall point is valid regardless of his gaffe.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 01:46 pm
They say that the Guard and reserve are broken. This might be more of a danger to the USA than Iraq.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 01:47 pm
sozobe wrote:
That's part of the problem, though. That should be the emphasis in the lead-up to an election. A candidate should be fleshing out already-held opinions and researching issues he or she hasn't yet decided on. And getting all of that stuff established so that it can be conveyed to the voter, so the voter knows what to expect.

I agree that a lot of time is taken up with "campaigning," but I think that American "campaigning" contains way too much frippery and not enough substance.


No argument from me there. I hate having to go to factcheck or some other analysis site to find out what a politician really said or whether what s/he said was incomplete or distorted or a flat out fabrication and even then we can't be sure how much of the analysis is skewed to a particular point of view and/or whether the person is quoted out of context and therefore represented incompletely or in a dishonest manner.

I'm guessing that most people running for public office are probably more decent than not, more honest than dishonest, and if we pay attention at all, we can get a sense of the perspective from which a person will likely govern. I think approving and/or damning somebody based on one or two positions or traits alone is not likely to elect the best person for the job.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 02:19 pm
I do think we agree. There are positions or traits that would torpedo my interest -- wanting to repeal Roe vs. Wade for example -- but overall I agree.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 02:20 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
sozobe wrote:
I agree with that, ehBeth.


I would too if it was feasible, but it is not. Most politicians have neither the time nor the resources to do the research on every issue while they are campaigning.


I find it hard to believe that American politicians don't have the resources available to politicians in other countries.

They may not have the inclination or curiosity to do the research, but they've surely got time and resources. Campaigning is their job at that point in time - doing it well should be a goal.

The 'frippery' noted by Soz just wouldn't fly in most other developed countries I've looked at.

Politicians need to be able to think on their feet, respond quickly and sensibly. If they're successful in their campaign, we need to know they've got those skills.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 03:16 pm
I don't think America is that intolerant of flip-flopping... I think they are sick and tired of plastic fakes. Bald faced, blatant position shifting with the wind is what won't be stomached. John Kerry provided a caricature like example of this. Not every flip-flop will raise the hackles.

As for politicians not having time or resources to research the issues; Shocked. Are you kidding? This is what they do. This is ALL they do. Nimh works full time, NOT in politics; yet seems to have a working knowledge (at the very least) of every meaningful election across the globe. When I hear members of our foreign intelligence committee don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia; it makes me want to punch someone in the face.

If a politician doesn't have the time, or the wherewithal to learn what it takes to do the job he seeks; than he's about as useful as a lawyer who doesn't study law or a doctor that doesn't study medicine. That we've allowed this two party monopoly to evolve into such a sorry state where the public was forced in 2004 to choose between an ignorant fool and an unpredictable weathervane is cause for shame. The Dull Clod Vs. unknown fool election of 2000 wasn't' much better. Not knowing the issues; should get a guy laughed off the campaign trailÂ… or chased out of Washington.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 03:37 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
When I hear members of our foreign intelligence committee don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia; it makes me want to punch someone in the face.

Absolutely. I mean, sorry, but WTF? I couldnt believe it when I heard that many Congressmen turned out not to know the difference. Hell, every single one of us here knows the difference, and its not even our job. This is Important Distinction #1 for anything whatsoever to do with Iraq, and your Congressmen dont know it? How can that be?? Seriously.

Then I was reading through some thread of responses to a WaPo article, and at least a dozen people were defending how you cant necessarily expect politicians to know about every such "obscure" issue like Sunnis vs Shiites. What? Your country's political issue #1 is the war in Iraq, and has been for some four years. The other overriding issue has been terrorism, of the Islamist kind. And they're saying that to know the single most basic fact about Islam is "obscure"?

That just staggered me - both the politicians' ignorance and this sample of the public's tolerance for it. Or, what was that with - I think it was McCain, who turned out to not have the vaguest clue about what his position on AIDS in Africa was? I mean, for chrissakes, this is elementary! They're not asking them about Laotian domestic politics. Politics is their job, and they dont know basic things that any reader of a quality daily would be able to express an opinion about? What do they do?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 03:38 pm
Maybe if a guy has unlimited money and/or unlimited time, he could afford enough staff to competently research every single issue that might come up before he has to speak to it. Most however choose one or two that is their flagship issues--Steve Forbes for instance chose tax reform for that and he knew everything there was to know about tax reform. Another might hone in on social security reform or health care or any number of subjects. But nobody is going to be an expert in all and every single one of them is likely to be tripped up on something.

How many candidates actually carry through on their campaign promises or go on to actually push an issue that they said was important to them in the campaign? I think many get into office and for the first time understand why a particular issue hasn't been brought to the surface in the past and why he can't bring it to the surface now. Or they get into office on high sounding rhetoric and find out public opinion and their opinion isn't exactly in as much tune as they thought.

If you're a Ronald Reagan or a Ross Perot, you have enough charisma that you don't need expertise on every issue and are allowed the luxury of focusing on two or three key things. Most aren't allowed to do that.

So they stick to high sounding campaign rhetoric that fits with the most recent polling information as to what is working and don't have a clue how to implement the promises they are making.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 03:45 pm
I think McCain had opinions about AIDS in Africa but wasn't sure which opinions he was SUPPOSED to have. Seriously. Straight talk my aunt Fanny.

Everything I read about Obama -- and the opening of the New Yorker article is all about this, too -- indicates that he's someone who's actually doing this stuff. Researching, learning, fine-tuning, while already having an impressive grasp of a lot of issues. I'm hoping that he's taking some time to formulate policies and proposals that he can really stand behind and then will fulfill more of the "new kinds of politics" promise by really punching through the platitudes. (Er, excuse unintended alliteration, no time right now to find some non-alliterative synonyms.) We'll see.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 03:45 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The Dull Clod Vs. unknown fool election of 2000 wasn't' much better. Not knowing the issues; should get a guy laughed off the campaign trailÂ… or chased out of Washington.

One thing though - the "Dull Clod" - Al Gore - sure knew the issues.

Perhaps thats part of the problem. We/you dont want an ignorant as President - you want someone who actually knows, or rather: cares to know. But, in America at least, if someone actually does know about the details and cares for them, he's quickly brushed aside as a boring geek or, worse, an intellectual. Cant have that.

Many voters appear to choose on the basis of a "whom would I rather have a beer with" argument - and are actively encouraged to do so by at least some of the campaigns (<cough> Bush <cough>). FDR would never make it anymore - too aloof, not fit enough. But like I joked before somewhere, you're not voting for BBQ guest, you're voting for leader of the country and Commander in Chief.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 03:56 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Maybe if a guy has unlimited money and/or unlimited time, he could afford enough staff to competently research every single issue that might come up before he has to speak to it. [..]

If you're a Ronald Reagan or a Ross Perot, you have enough charisma that you don't need expertise on every issue and are allowed the luxury of focusing on two or three key things. Most aren't allowed to do that.

Well, first off, if ever the presidential candidates had unlimited money to do any research they needed, it's now. Campaign after campaign, all money records have been smashed to pieces. The money this cycle's candidates will spend would probably feed a small Asian nation. So resources really is no excuse.

But moreover, I mean, we're hardly talking "every single issue that might come up" here, are we? I mean, this example of knowing the difference between the two strands of Islam - representing 1.4 billion (Sunnis) and 200 million (Shi'ites) Muslims, respectively - I mean, this is not some obscure local issue. This is as elementary as foreign policy gets.

I mean, you're embroiled in a wasting war in Iraq that is all about the conflict between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Hundreds of your soldiers are dying because of the clash there between Sunnis and Shi'ites. And you have Congressmen who dont know the difference? Congressmen on the Foreign Intelligence Committee, like Bill says? That's just mindblowingly unbelievable!

AIDS in Africa, though it doesnt involve US soldiers, is hardly akin to the intricacies of tax deduction schemes either. (Sozobe probably has the real angle on McCain's gaffe on that one though.)

I mean, shouldnt we be able to agree on - lets call it the A2K-basic-knowledge-standard? Like this: anything that every one of us in this conversation is able to formulate an articulate opinion on, a Congressman (let alone a presidential candidate!) should surely be able to say something about spontaneously too. If not, he has embarassed himself as not being worth his salt.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 05:26 pm
Not worth a single grain of salt. Earth shattering ignorance when you consider 1/4 of the world's population is Muslim, and opinions on Muslim Fundamentalist Terror has been the overwhelmingly largest campaign issue for half a decade. Today, arguably the single best practicing politician of our time announced his resignation. Had he ever displayed a fraction of the accepted ignorance of American politicians he would have been tarred and feathered in the House of Commons before his head was proverbially placed on London Bridge. That the opposition party here couldn't come up with a more palatable politician than George Bush in 2004 has no doubt left the thinking majority of the world in a collective:
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4392/shockblowuplr5.jpg
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2007 05:56 pm
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Maybe if a guy has unlimited money and/or unlimited time, he could afford enough staff to competently research every single issue that might come up before he has to speak to it. [..]

If you're a Ronald Reagan or a Ross Perot, you have enough charisma that you don't need expertise on every issue and are allowed the luxury of focusing on two or three key things. Most aren't allowed to do that.

Well, first off, if ever the presidential candidates had unlimited money to do any research they needed, it's now. Campaign after campaign, all money records have been smashed to pieces. The money this cycle's candidates will spend would probably feed a small Asian nation. So resources really is no excuse.

But moreover, I mean, we're hardly talking "every single issue that might come up" here, are we? I mean, this example of knowing the difference between the two strands of Islam - representing 1.4 billion (Sunnis) and 200 million (Shi'ites) Muslims, respectively - I mean, this is not some obscure local issue. This is as elementary as foreign policy gets.

I mean, you're embroiled in a wasting war in Iraq that is all about the conflict between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Hundreds of your soldiers are dying because of the clash there between Sunnis and Shi'ites. And you have Congressmen who dont know the difference? Congressmen on the Foreign Intelligence Committee, like Bill says? That's just mindblowingly unbelievable!

AIDS in Africa, though it doesnt involve US soldiers, is hardly akin to the intricacies of tax deduction schemes either. (Sozobe probably has the real angle on McCain's gaffe on that one though.)

I mean, shouldnt we be able to agree on - lets call it the A2K-basic-knowledge-standard? Like this: anything that every one of us in this conversation is able to formulate an articulate opinion on, a Congressman (let alone a presidential candidate!) should surely be able to say something about spontaneously too. If not, he has embarassed himself as not being worth his salt.


First, despite the mega millions that go through U.S. campaigns, most candidates who drop out do so because the money runs out long before the campaign is over. Add the Electoral College to the process in a country as large as the USA with our mostly incompetent national network news pulling a tiny fraction of the viewing or listening audience and the so-called national newspapers dealing with ever dwindling readership, it is imperative for the candidates to be able to put their ads into local newspapers and on local radio and television outlets. As this is a very large country, such advertising gobbles up many tens of millions of dollars over a period of weeks, let alone months. Most campaign staff are doing good just to keep on top of the polls, do damage control, manage the candidate's schedule and burnish his/her image. Add to this the cost of campaign literature, travel expenses for a huge entourage, mega salaries paid to public relations experts, and there really isn't a lot of cash left to pay people just to research issues and devise a comprehensive plan for dealing with them.

Yes, you are right that any candidate worthy to be president should know the general basics related to all the major issues. (Personally I think people should be required to know that before they are allowed to vote, but I probably wouldn't get anywhere with that kind of campaign.) That the candidate should have a plan formulated for dealing with all the issues before declaring his/her candidacy however is entirely unrealistic. It seems to be a presumed requirement that the candidate attack whatever the opposition is already doing to deal with the issue, but when the opposition has not found a solution after years of virtually unrestricted and/or unlimited resources, it's a pretty fair bet that the problem is not so easily resolved as some would want us to believe.

Also armchair quarterbacking is a national sport and is frequently applied to all walks of American life. It is always easier to say that given the chance, I would do this or I would do that, but when it comes to implementation of our grandiose convictions, we suddenly see all manner of issues and problems we didn't consider before.

Oddly enough, as much as George W. Bush is blasted and criticized and scorned and ridiculed and chastised, he is probably the most consistent president of the last 100 years in sticking with his campaign promises. You won't find many, if any, issues in which he doesn't believe now as he stated in his campaign rhetoric.

I hope in the next election we do elect a president who is smart, savvy, and committed to excellence. I hope this person is sufficiently wise to do his/her best to promote programs and policies that actually work and to do no harm. If we get that kind of person, I'll forgive him/her for not knowing the name of the dictator of some obscure banana republic or not being up on the price of milk this week.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2007 01:09 am
Foxy, we voted for the same guy in the last election... and not only do I admit it; I stand by it being the right thing to do... but for Dog's sake, Shocked. Are you reading along at all?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2007 07:11 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Foxy, we voted for the same guy in the last election... and not only do I admit it; I stand by it being the right thing to do... but for Dog's sake, Shocked. Are you reading along at all?


Are you? I was addressing my comments in response to Nimh's post and was not disagreeing with him. I don't know what in my post you find objectionable. All of it? Something specific? What prompted your criticism here?

My point was intended to mean that we seem to expect a president to be omniscient, omniponent, infallable, and essentially perfect re everything, and that is simply an unrealistic expectation. Further the system, along with poltiical mentality that focuses on a politics of personal destruction rather than debate on the issues, creates an environment that makes it extremely difficult for any candidate to get elected at all if he or she is meticulously honest about what he or she really thinks. We seem to know and focus much more about a candidate's divorce(s) or religion or color of skin or use of a politically incorrect word than we know what a candidate's basic philosophy of government might be. I think that is unfortunate and makes it extremely difficult to elect the best person for the job.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2007 02:07 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
I mean, you're embroiled in a wasting war in Iraq that is all about the conflict between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Hundreds of your soldiers are dying because of the clash there between Sunnis and Shi'ites. And you have Congressmen who dont know the difference? Congressmen on the Foreign Intelligence Committee, like Bill says? That's just mindblowingly unbelievable!


and there really isn't a lot of cash left to pay people just to research issues and devise a comprehensive plan for dealing with them...

If we get that kind of person, I'll forgive him/her for not knowing the name of the dictator of some obscure banana republic or not being up on the price of milk this week.
Why would anyone need to pay people to research the most important issue of our time to have a friggin clue about it? Sunni/Shia is NOT analogous to the name of the dictator of some obscure banana republic. Ignorance of this distinction, shown by any politician who has or aspires to a position that addresses it is obscene.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2007 02:16 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
I mean, you're embroiled in a wasting war in Iraq that is all about the conflict between Sunnis and Shi'ites. Hundreds of your soldiers are dying because of the clash there between Sunnis and Shi'ites. And you have Congressmen who dont know the difference? Congressmen on the Foreign Intelligence Committee, like Bill says? That's just mindblowingly unbelievable!


and there really isn't a lot of cash left to pay people just to research issues and devise a comprehensive plan for dealing with them...

If we get that kind of person, I'll forgive him/her for not knowing the name of the dictator of some obscure banana republic or not being up on the price of milk this week.
Why would anyone need to pay people to research the most important issue of our time to have a friggin clue about it? Sunni/Shia is NOT analogous to the name of the dictator of some obscure banana republic. Ignorance of this distinction, shown by any politician who has or aspires to a position that addresses it is obscene.


And pray tell, where did I in any place suggest this not to be the case? I believe if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I agreed that the candidates should know the basic issues.

(Muttering that there must be something in the water or the phase of the moon today. Sheesh.)
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2007 02:33 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
My point was intended to mean that we seem to expect a president to be omniscient, omniponent, infallable, and essentially perfect re everything, and that is simply an unrealistic expectation.


Alert, aware, and interested would be a tremendous step in the right direction.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2007 02:37 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
My point was intended to mean that we seem to expect a president to be omniscient, omniponent, infallable, and essentially perfect re everything, and that is simply an unrealistic expectation.


Alert, aware, and interested would be a tremendous step in the right direction.


My husband, my next door neighbor, and (immodestly) myself fit that criteria quite handily. All three of us would make absolutely lousy Presidents of the United States.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2007 07:19 am
Getting back to the subject at hand, I am wondering why Richardson from New Mexico is doing so poorly in the democratic race. He seems to have excellent experience in all the issues both foreign and domestic. Why has it come down on the democratic side a choice between two unwinnable candidates?

(Hillary because she carries so much baggage and Obama because he is basically inexperienced and for some losers out there-black.)

Bill Richardson

I think given this time in history in the state of so much unrest most voters want someone who knows about the world outside of United States as well as someone who is interested in domestic affairs. From what I can see, Richardson has it all, why aint he doing better?
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