13
   

the universe and space....?

 
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 05:22 pm
@ican711nm,
It is easier for an object to occur than a god. Where did God come from? If you say God always existed then the Universe always existed. A god is more complex than an inanimate object so it is more logical to think that the Universe always existed than a god, who is capable of creating a Universe.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 06:28 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:
It is easier for an object to occur than a god.

Do we actually know that for sure?

If we're talking about probabilities outside of our Universe and all the rules therein, do we really know that it's easier for an object to exist than a god?

An object is a very specific concept, defined within our physics and composed of specific particles. A god on the other hand is a very wide ranging concept and could include some very nebulous structures or outside of our Universe something without structure. It might be easier for a non-physical entity to exist outside of our Universe than it is for a physical object to exist.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 06:31 pm
@rosborne979,
Man or living creature or life appears billions of years after earth was formed. There is an existing universe and most of it has no life. If life was easier to occur there would be an abundance of life before lifeless materials.

Quote:
It might be easier for a non-physical entity to exist outside of our Universe than it is for a physical object to exist.


There is no proof that God exists nor that there isn't one.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 06:34 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:

Man or living creature or life appears billions of years after earth was formed. There is an existing universe and most of it has no life. If life was easier to occur there would be an abundance of life before lifeless materials.

You're limiting your argument to within our existing Universe, yet the original question relates to potentials outside of our Universe. There is an inconsistency.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 06:38 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
our existing Universe

That is all there is.

You wish to speculate then you are welcome to join the club of philosophical speculation.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 03:11 pm
Let's assume that God exists ONLY as a concept stored in each of our brains for us to ignore, or contemplate and from which to obtain guidance on how we should behave to achieve better lives.

If it were true that God exists ONLY as a concept stored in each of our brains for us to ignore or contemplate, who or what put it there? DNA? Evolution? Why?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 04:05 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:

Quote:
our existing Universe

That is all there is.

That's all we know about and have access to. We don't know it it's all there is.

talk72000 wrote:

You wish to speculate then you are welcome to join the club of philosophical speculation.

You joined the club of philosophical speculation when you answered Ican's post because Ican's original post clearly implied that he was speculating outside of (before) our Universe.

I don't think you are being consistent with your argument when you claim to know something about probabilities which relate to Ican's comment, and then claim that you are restricting your argument to a "Universe" that Ican obviously wasn't restricting himself to.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 04:08 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
If it were true that God exists ONLY as a concept stored in each of our brains for us to ignore or contemplate, who or what put it there? DNA? Evolution? Why?

You don't think it's possible for thoughts to arise spontaneously?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 04:25 pm
@rosborne979,
Usually caused by the place of birth; parents and environment reinforce it - over and over.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 10:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Simple minds arrive at dumb answers; show me where I said that?


just asked a question
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 10:27 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Quote:
Do you think space, time, energy, and matter came from nothing?


NO

Quote:
if you think that, then what do you think caused it all to come from nothing?


NO

Quote:
If you do not think that, then what do you think space, time, energy, and matter came from?


Cosmic Plasma

Quote:
It takes me much more faith to believe space, time, energy, and matter came from nothing than to believe they came from God who always existed!


yet god cannot give life to the Moon

therefore god has its limits

Quote:
To date, neither can be proven to a certainty!


don't be silly


Quote:
Place your bets!

I'm betting space, time, energy, and matter came from God who always existed!


god has limits


Quote:
What is the price you pay of believing in either proposition, if you are wrong?


none , because god has limits , while the Universe has as well
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 10:33 pm

in order for any thought to be , it needs space , energy and matter

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2010 10:49 pm
@north,
simple minds ask dumb questions.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2010 02:19 pm
I assume that all that existed, exists, and will exist is part of God.

In particular, I assume that God's Wil is part of God and the following is true:
Quote:

http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm
Exodus 20:1-26
1 And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:
2 “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; 6 but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.
8 “Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, 9 you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. 10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates. 11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.
12 “Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.
13 “You must not murder.
14 “You must not commit adultery.
15 “You must not steal.
16 “You must not testify falsely as a witness against your fellowman.
17 “You must not desire your fellowman’s house. You must not desire your fellowman’s wife, nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his ass nor anything that belongs to your fellowman.”

I assume that each and everyone of us is free to assume what we want, including that God does not exist.

I also assume that any of us who assumes the wrong thing will have to pay the consequences.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2010 02:36 pm
@ican711nm,
Oh no, I see these pamphlets everywhere in the streets and laundromats. They are a good read on some some scientific knowledge like origins of coffee and so on. To each his/her own.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2010 08:48 pm
@pyko,
I would like to address a few things that I saw repeated here several times which is not quite accurate.

"Space is an empty void of nothingness"

Not true. Space is not nothing, it is something yet we don't actually have a firm grasp of what to make of it. Sure it is not like the material substance of atoms that fill up the space, but it is still something. In theoretical physics space is energy. Sure it's not the same state that you see other energy such as light, sound or heat but it is still a state of energy. This mistaken view of space being nothing or a void is where people get into trouble when they talk about the expansion of the universe or what is the universe expanding into.

By the way I love the question posed by the OP and I have asked and pondered similar ideas and questions myself. For example along a similar line of reasoning as the original question;

If the universe has an edge, what is the edge made of? What determines the edge of the universe, what's there? Is it some kind of barrier, some kind of skin that you can't penetrate?

I have some conflicting answers of what I consider the universe. I actually say that since space is energy it can be manipulated by matter and this is why it appears to be expanding when in fact it is not expanding but instead the matter, the atoms with the space is what is moving and manipulating the space around it as it moves. In other words the space of the universe is actually infinite, however the atoms the matter of the universe is not infinite.

To put it another way, the space is not actually being stretched, it only appears to be that way because there is matter interacting with it. If space were nothing, then by all means the matter would probably have no effect but since space is actually energy, matter impacts it.

So if you buy anything that I have said here, then by all means, the universe does not have an edge, however there could be areas of the universe where there is no matter or atoms or molecules or physical states of energy. These shouldn't be called voids though, they still contain energy.

The big bang theory for me does not include space itself, space for me has always existed and time has always existed. However the matter in the universe is in a state of constant flux. In fact I propose that there probably wasn't a single bang event but instead there are many different bangs. My theory is that when you get a certain amount of matter condensed down to a certain point something occurs and it ruptures and the matter contained within that point spreads out and the process repeats.

We happen to be within one of these explosions of matter and since our view on the universe is very limited in scope to our size and relative size of how far we can observe we are under the impression that there is only one event. However; I could be mistaken but it solves a lot of problems in theoretical physics to not have an edge to the universe. I know conveniences should never be considered as solutions.

north
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Dec, 2010 09:26 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

I would like to address a few things that I saw repeated here several times which is not quite accurate.

"Space is an empty void of nothingness"

Quote:
Not true. Space is not nothing, it is something yet we don't actually have a firm grasp of what to make of it. Sure it is not like the material substance of atoms that fill up the space, but it is still something.


true , just space

Quote:
In theoretical physics space is energy.


no , there is energy WITHIN space , space does not have energy in and of its self

Quote:
Sure it's not the same state that you see other energy such as light, sound or heat but it is still a state of energy.


no

Quote:
This mistaken view of space being nothing or a void is where people get into trouble when they talk about the expansion of the universe or what is the universe expanding into.


space is just simply the room that energy and matter need to exist

for instance , to build a house , you need a certain area of matter , Earth , therefore space , that is not taken by any other source of matter that would not get in the way of building this house

Quote:
By the way I love the question posed by the OP and I have asked and pondered similar ideas and questions myself. For example along a similar line of reasoning as the original question;


Quote:
If the universe has an edge, what is the edge made of? What determines the edge of the universe, what's there? Is it some kind of barrier, some kind of skin that you can't penetrate?


space , lack of energy and matter , whats there , space , the only barrier , is the amount of energy and matter being present which creates space or the amount of energy and matter being created within the Universe




Quote:
I have some conflicting answers of what I consider the universe. I actually say that since space is energy it can be manipulated by matter and this is why it appears to be expanding when in fact it is not expanding but instead the matter, the atoms with the space is what is moving and manipulating the space around it as it moves. In other words the space of the universe is actually infinite, however the atoms the matter of the universe is not infinite.


energy and matter is absolutely infinite

since the opposite , has the absence of depth of quality

Quote:
To put it another way, the space is not actually being stretched, it only appears to be that way because there is matter interacting with it. If space were nothing, then by all means the matter would probably have no effect but since space is actually energy, matter impacts it.


above

Quote:
So if you buy anything that I have said here, then by all means, the universe does not have an edge, however there could be areas of the universe where there is no matter or atoms or molecules or physical states of energy. These shouldn't be called voids though, they still contain energy.


not possible


Quote:
The big bang theory for me does not include space itself, space for me has always existed and time has always existed. However the matter in the universe is in a state of constant flux. In fact I propose that there probably wasn't a single bang event but instead there are many different bangs. My theory is that when you get a certain amount of matter condensed down to a certain point something occurs and it ruptures and the matter contained within that point spreads out and the process repeats.


sorry but nothing new here , heard this kind of theory before



Quote:
We happen to be within one of these explosions of matter and since our view on the universe is very limited in scope to our size and relative size of how far we can observe we are under the impression that there is only one event. However; I could be mistaken but it solves a lot of problems in theoretical physics to not have an edge to the universe. I know conveniences should never be considered as solutions.


above

0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2010 01:03 am
Space has the property of allowing dynamic in it...it contains the relational !!!
(that seams to fit the bill very well)
In layman´s terms, Space is to "energy" and "matter" like the Sea is to fish...
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 06:11 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:
You don't think it's possible for thoughts to arise spontaneously?

Of course I think it possible and even probable for thoughts to arise spontaneously!

But why in so many human brains over the last more than 4,000 years has the belief in God arisen? That's got to be more than a coincidence. The probability that such has occurred coincidentally or by chance is damn small. It therefore takes a great deal of faith to believe it has occurred coincidentally or by chance.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 09:29 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Space has the property of allowing dynamic in it...it contains the relational !!!
(that seams to fit the bill very well)
In layman´s terms, Space is to "energy" and "matter" like the Sea is to fish...


space has that property of allowing the dynamics of things , although , for me energy , matter , space all happen at exactly the same moment that each becomes

however the Universe also contains the irrational
 

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