13
   

the universe and space....?

 
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 09:37 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
You don't think it's possible for thoughts to arise spontaneously?

Of course I think it possible and even probable for thoughts to arise spontaneously!

But why in so many human brains over the last more than 4,000 years has the belief in God arisen? That's got to be more than a coincidence. The probability that such has occurred coincidentally or by chance is damn small. It therefore takes a great deal of faith to believe it has occurred coincidentally or by chance.


your going back 4000 yrs what of in our society here and now ?

you find less that do

I mean what did they know ? really

if god was in my brain , initially, why do I reject god ?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 09:37 pm
@north,
It's only irrational to humans.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 09:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's only irrational to humans.


well we don't know any other advanced form of life able to give us their perspective , so we don't really know that

what is rational about a galaxy ?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 10:17 pm
@north,
That's because all we know is that only humans have the intelligence to understand the limits of what we call space. What we don't understand is limited to humans - as far as we know.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 10:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's because all we know is that only humans have the intelligence to understand the limits of what we call space. What we don't understand is limited to humans - as far as we know.


agreed

but what is also true is that , WE ARE from the Universe , we are made of the Universe , and therefore alot of its Nature can be found by us
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 10:26 pm
@north,
Yes, but we're discussing the irrationality of space. We still don't have all the answers, but with time, who knows?
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 10:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Yes, but we're discussing the irrationality of space. We still don't have all the answers, but with time, who knows?


your discussing the irrationality of space ? !!!!!!!!

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 11:48 pm
@north,
This is copied from the last page (your post):

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Quote:
Space has the property of allowing dynamic in it...it contains the relational !!!
(that seams to fit the bill very well)
In layman´s terms, Space is to "energy" and "matter" like the Sea is to fish...



You wrote:
Quote:
space has that property of allowing the dynamics of things , although , for me energy , matter , space all happen at exactly the same moment that each becomes

however the Universe also contains the irrational
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 12:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

This is copied from the last page (your post):

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Quote:
Space has the property of allowing dynamic in it...it contains the relational !!!
(that seams to fit the bill very well)
In layman´s terms, Space is to "energy" and "matter" like the Sea is to fish...



You wrote:
Quote:
space has that property of allowing the dynamics of things , although , for me energy , matter , space all happen at exactly the same moment that each becomes

however the Universe also contains the irrational



okay your point
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 12:28 am

look the Universe is neither rational or irrational , it does what does based on the interactions of things , which be figured out , goodness knows how long that will take us or any being really

what can be irrational in this Universe is any beings thinking towards its self and the Universe

therefore not understanding fundamental truths , that this Universe gives us , blatantly
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 11:30 am
@north,
north wrote:
Quote:
what can be irrational in this Universe is any beings thinking towards its self and the Universe


Doesn't make any sense.
amer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 12:33 pm
@pyko,
pyko wrote:

ok, I've been thinking about this question for sometime now. (I hope I can explain it clearly as sometimes I have been known to have really twisted thinking)

Firstly, I think I can safely say that to create/move an object you will need some space to do it. eg, you need space to move from A to B, and you need the space in the kitchen to make a cake.

Ok, now I know that there has been a lot of discussion on whether the universe was created by God, or the Big Bang (or something of that sort).

But my question is, where did the space for the universe to come into existence come from? This universe - however big it is - must need some space (space as in room to move space, NOT space as in moon, star, sun space) to start its existence, otherwise what is it in??? But then I suppose this also becomes an even more twisted question when you ask, where did the space for that space come from (and so on and so forth)?

Also, if God created the universe etc. where did the space for God come from (he had to exist first before he created the space, but then how did the space come into existence if he didn't create it?) OR where did the space for the rocks/debris etc, come from for them to collide and make the universe???

I hope I have explained it well enough...
0 Replies
 
amer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 01:00 pm
@pyko,
@Pyko - the universe and space - I think this question has no verifiable answer if it is asked in a purely philosophical context i.e. if asked completely independently to natural sciences and of course I mean physics.

In the various models (mathematical) of the physical universe a number of measurable quantities are axiomatically defined, space and time (space time) being one of these. These quantities naturally pair them selves mathematically with other measurable quantities such as momentum and energy. In fact, these pairings provide some deep insight into the development of any physical system, for instance, Energy is that physical quantity of the physical universe that is associated with temporal existence. In other words if there is no energy there is also no concept of time. Similarly, momentum and space. If there was no momentum there is no concept of space. Thus, physics shows that things that we would have intuitively thought of as primarily philosophical entities are in fact only (and exclusively) physical quantities. There is therefore no meaning to the question what was time like before the universe can into being or what did space mean before the universe came into being. Because? because these are physical entities associated with only a physical universe. They have no definition, no meaning in any context other that of a physical universe! This is a difficult and sometimes a disturbing concept but it seems to be the way the world is.

The physical models then describe not a universe being created in to a pre existing space and time but the creation of all physical entities including space and time. So, when you hear that the universe is expanding - it is not expanding into existing space, that very space is what is being created in the expansion.

I hope this helps.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 01:07 pm
@amer,
amer, Pretty good explanations on a somewhat difficult subject that most of us can't grasp because of the way most people try to explain it. You get an "A" for one of the best attempts to explain this subject.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2010 09:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

north wrote:
Quote:
what can be irrational in this Universe is any beings thinking towards its self and the Universe


Doesn't make any sense.


actually it does

for instance , when one thinks that we create the Universe through thought
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2010 09:39 pm
@north,
That's not how it reads to me! Your clarification was needed for your first statement to make any sense. "...thinking towards it self and the Universe" doesn't imply or say "we create..."
north
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2010 09:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's not how it reads to me! Your clarification was needed for your first statement to make any sense. "...thinking towards it self and the Universe" doesn't imply or say "we create..."


true

it was just an example of the irrational that some have towards the existence of the Universe and our-selves , our relationship , between the without and the essence of our being
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 03:58 pm
PLACE YOUR BETS!

What do you think is the chance that the Universe occurred through random evolution?

What do you think is the chance that the Universe occurred through designed evolution?

What do you think is the chance of anyone eventually proving either is true?

HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 05:47 pm
@pyko,
Read up on some of the new stuff about the universe, the Big Bang is quite outdated.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 01:24 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

PLACE YOUR BETS!

What do you think is the chance that the Universe occurred through random evolution?

What do you think is the chance that the Universe occurred through designed evolution?

What do you think is the chance of anyone eventually proving either is true?




1 - Its not random since it seams plausible that all possible Universes exist in Multiverse...
2 - None if all possibles are actuals...there´s nothing left aside in Everythingness to create something else, just as there´s nothing to Nothingness to speak in a before or after...HOLISTIC approach !
3 - What is to be true, since proved in itself as a Whole, does n´t require to be proved otherwise, neither it can...
 

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