the universe and space....?

truth
RedHorn, that's a great Nietzsche quote. He once said that we dare not face the profound existential truths of life; instead we eclipse/opaque them with religious and other ideological fictions. The major one, of course, is the fiction of a judging and saving God, the source of all security, authority and The Good. But with the rise of industrialism, science,and political secularization in the 19th century, religion was pushed aside by secular motivations and political constitutions (his famous announcement that "God is Dead")--except for many theocratic Muslim states, of course.

Uh Oh ... this is it, I guess. The future ain't so bright, after all. Suppose we oughtta start makin' plans?
Heavens: We're [size=27]DOOMED[/size]

No, that's merely fallacious logic.

I'm sure you've heard the phrase: "taking a chance". The basic logic of that phrase is that someone or something is taking a chance. Usually, that phrase is expressed by a person in a statement like: I think I'll take a chance and try <this> to see if that will work.

Is any direction implied there? I think there is! :wink:

There is someting for almost everyone in the following definitions :
Merriam Webster
www.m-w.com
Main Entry: 1chance
Pronunciation: 'chan(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin cadentia fall, from Latin cadent-, cadens, present participle of cadere to fall; perhaps akin to Sanskrit sad- to fall off
Date: 14th century
1 a : something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause b : the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings : LUCK c : the fortuitous or incalculable element in existence : CONTINGENCY
2 : a situation favoring some purpose : OPPORTUNITY <needed a chance to relax>
3 : a fielding opportunity in baseball
4 a : the possibility of a particular outcome in an uncertain situation; also : the degree of likelihood of such an outcome <a small chance of success> b plural : the more likely indications <chances are he's already gone>
5 a : RISK <not taking any chances> b : a raffle ticket
- chance adjective
- by chance : in the haphazard course of events <they met by chance>

I favor definitions 1(b) and 2. 1(b) suggests that sometimes the word chance is used as a psuedo-explanation for a cause of events when the actual explanation has not yet been found. But of course, in light of your comment, definition 2 and the raffle ticket example in definition 5 (someone had to choose to buy it) gave me quite a chuckle.

With zero stuff, how can one observe a moment of time before or after?

Let's try your thinking on the question of what is the number of Life Evolving Planets (LEP) within SATOOU and OOU. When you or your computer can count 20 moogol plus 1 such planets, you'll make a believer out of me.

To me how big is empty space is a question like how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. I don't care. On the other hand, how much stuff exists is of interest to me only to the extent that knowing the answer to that question may help me know the answer to how many LEP exist.

Please none of that! Making plans? Smacks of directed chance, unless one can quarantee the desired outcome, in which case, there's no chance at all! Hmmmm I've got a problem with this, but let it ride!

truth
One can invite chance to occur within a controlled range, as when artists splatter paint in certain areas for certain GENERAL effects. This is sometimes referred to as "controlled accidents" (I guess Jackson Pollack's dripping technique is the best known example). One might argue, however, that the "control" in controlled accident is quite apart from the "accident" in controlled accident, and that exercising a degree of control in this way does not affect the nature of chance or accident as defined by BoGoWo.

Hermanuetics and sophistry aside, I gotta say I find the term "Directed Chance" an oxymoron, if not an absolute absurdity. One may initiate a chain of decision and action having a defined goal, which goal may or may not be met. That the goal be met in no way logically implies that the chance of that goal's achievement was in any way directed; the determinates of success or failure often defy either categorization or even recognition. That a thing may happen or a condition may pertain may indeed be influenced, even effected, by the chain of decoision or action pertinent thereto, but unless the outcome is a predetirmined statistical certainty and thus independent of chance, there remains the chance, however slight, that thing or condition, due to circumstances unforeseen, may not be realized. The entire value and practice of planning lies in minimizing the potential for "Unforeseen Circumstances", and is imperfect at best. Just ask the millions of folks who's meticulous plans came to naught this afternoon due to the chance occurance of a grid-crippling power failure.

HeHeHeHe ... here at Timberland, we have a propane-fueled generator which automatically kicks in and switches the house and outbuildings to self-generated power against the certainty, not the mere chance, of the unreliability of the rural power grid. I ain't about to hand-milk cows by lantern light just 'cause a pole went down somewhere nearby during an ice storm. That's planning, and this is way-rural Northwestern Wisconsin. Of course, I COULD run out of propane, but that's a very remote likelihood; its a 2500 gallon tank and is tended on regular schedule, as it is critical to building heating and cooling, water heating, , cooking, refrigeration, clothes drying, and the decorative faux-antique pole lantern which marks the intersection of my driveway with the road.

OH MY GOD!!!!! MY POST IS NEXT TO THE MODERATORS!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!! I WANT TO BE A MODERATOR!!!!!!

Ican,
Re empty space, The Observable Universe requires a certain volume.
We are able to measure distance and time and volume in some manner meaningful to us.
Or 200 moogol>200 moogol + 1. Tis but a portion of infinity.

Hokie, sometimes a jump makes one think a bit. I used to be a born again Big Banger until someone pointed out that that was merely a "belief system". After about a year I determined that he may have been correct in his assumptions with respect to me. I was embarassed to find out that I had very little more "KNOWLEDGE' than a snake handling preacher. .

So most of my inquiries have been directed thusly. "How do you KNOW" that there was a beginning, or "How do you KNOW" that the Cosmos is finite?

I have already agreed that Our Observable Universe is finite and have explained the "mechanical" limitations upon the electromagnetic radiation which is the only tool by which information is conveyed to us in understandable (interpretable) form.
I have not agreed that the Observable Universe is all that there is.
There MAY be a difference.

Timberlandko, I happen to agree with the term "directed chance" and even recently described the mechanism by which it occurs. The mechanism does not imply any goal whatsoever on the smallest living scales.
Happy Thoughts everyone. M.

JL re your post of Aug 14, 11:53
Nobuddy kin make much money offa facts. IS is kind of common. But IS is all we KNOW, and often we are not too sure of that!.

re your post of Aug 13, 10:59.

"Even Mystics----" SO Is it not a worthy goal? A quest perhaps even one with some chance of modest successes.

Funny, even if I am nothing but a conglomeration of self replicating molecules I have a goal. Bibical isn't it .

Nother thread-- Are Goals necessary to self replicating molecules

Well, apparently, to direct your chance of becoming one, first get yourself a faux-antique pole lantern. Immediately after installing the thing, I became a Moderator here ... that very day, in fact, and nothing else about or within my life had changed, as far as I've been able to determine. One day I had neither the illumination device nor the designation, responsibilities, and permissions of Moderator, the next day I had both the light and the position. Obvious, isn't it?

Red along with good (but chancey) advice from Timber (but then, being from TO, who am i to doubt!); i offer some of my own..........

Begin with MODERATION, and see where it leads!

and Mech; while a goal is nice, i guess mere existence is challenge enough, trying to fall on the positive side of "chance" (trying to 'direct' it!), without letting entropy flush us all down the cosmic pipe.

truth
Everybody

Some here have asserted that God exists.
Some here have asserted God does not exist.
Some here have asserted they don't know whether God exists or not.

One here, namely me, has asserted that he has insufficient, valid data to warrant a guess about what the definition of God is.

I infer that all the others here do have what they think is sufficient, valid data to warrant a guess about what the definition of God is, because without such a definition, the first three assertions are at best a joke.

So, please provide your definitions, unless you are joking.

got me there ican;

touche.......... i was just joking!

actually god is real because i saw it on the subway this morning;

now my logic:
it must have been god, because the power is out, and the subways aren't running!
and, it must have been god, because i wasn't taking the subway, i never use transit - car or preferably bike!

so it must have been god.

Bogowo,

let me 'splain it atcha!

The huge northeast power failure in 1965, and the huge western power failure in 1996 were caused by enormous solar flares that generated massive transient electric currents in the country's nationwide power distribution network. These transients shut down several generation plants they disliked; the remaining ones, despite their historically cordial relationship with electric transients and their proven readiness to negotiate, couldn't handle the load and were shut off before dubya could disconnect enough of the net to keep its failures from spreading. Thursday, the same thing happened again despite prior efforts by dubya to negotiate a change in the sun's attitude and to install faster disconnects.

Now you might think that God caused those solar flares. But actually, they were caused by too many people at America's beaches stirring up the sun with excessive desire by their near nekid atire. After all the sun can only take so much. It's not made of stone, ya know! The sun cleverly waited 'til dubya was distracted by playing horsy at his crawford texas ranch, and in an uncontrollable passionate state flared before dubya could stop the shut down.

In baseball, three strikes and your out, but not in energy production. Three times now dubya has failed at the net. By doing so he has made a dramatic contribution and caused a massive decrease in the amount of energy expended by our society. For all of these failures on dubya's part, and his ultimate reduction of the amount of carbon dioxide in our air, he is rightfully promised a reward by the courageous Sierra Club, and election to the baseball hall of fame as the outstanding career catcher.

It's time poor dubya finally got some real recognition for his efforts and accomplishments.

Terry,
I've been thinking about the possible relationships between the "speeds of time" and the "blue shifting" of light since you kindly explained the concept. I have not tried the math yet but it has occurred to me that.

Since light (as a photon or particle) has mass it presumably also posesses inertia.

Since time as a function of the accelerations of gravity probably has no mass or inertia.

Then light will presumably always lag behind time as a result of inertia.

This would result in a "red shift" due to a space time interpretation of the forces of gravity. ( Probably.) Same waves, more and more time (longer and longer seconds)

But it "blue shifts" due to a gain of energy in a gravitational field.
Is this the source of "gravitational" energy discussed due to the collapse of a star?

Another thought, If The Universe is all there is then presumably gravity will be non-existant outside (if there is one) Since time slows in an intense gravitational field then it would be very rapid in a very low acceleration area( for want of a better term).
What do you think that this would do re. the CMBR
More and more diagrams comin up )

I am leaving for a couple of days. Thousand mile trip to Upstate NY and New England to visit relatives et al.

Problems are interesting. Leave a couple for me. Best Mech

Mech,
The photon is alleged to have zero mass and finite energy. Presumably it is the equivalent mass of that energy that has the characteristics you described.

Finally a scientific probalistic thinker discussing some real certainties.
Absolutely correct in your interpretations. Tis indeed a pleasure to be able to agree with you.

Also am glad to see that the US gov't does not intend to go on mindlessly polluting my kids world. What a wonderful way to shut down the bureaucracy. Mr. Bush may not be a rocket scientist but he certainly has a feel for whats best for America.

Kudos and Huzzahs, and Thanks Ican,

Ican, Yes but I don't know what to do with it yet. (hopefully)