Quote:No offense Cyracuz, but when it comes to the Bible, our opinions or what we think means nothing. What matters is what the Word itself says.
Of course, no one has been able to figure that out yet either. I guess Christ was not surprised by the vast numbers of the versions of his truth.
In England, they hounded the first English translators of the Latin Bible (the Vulgate) to death at the direction of the King,(burned William Tyndale at the stake,) three years later English Bibles were being produced by royal decree. It is all about timing.
Quote:Ah, people blame God all the time for things. Fact is, people are the one committing the atrocities, not God.
Here's the rule: if good things happen, God did it. If bad things happen, people are at fault.
God apparently takes all of the authority and none of the blame.
Joe(I worked for a guy like that one summer)Nation
Joe Nation wrote:Quote:Of course, no one has been able to figure that out yet either. I guess Christ was not surprised by the vast numbers of the versions of his truth.
Oh I don't think it's that no one has been able to figure it out Joe. That's the problem, they have figured it out. Why would anyone make changes to what God has said if they agreed with it? They wouldn't I figure. They make changes to accomodate what it is in their lives they want to continue doing. The message of salvation and the teachings of Christ are just "too simple" according to so many.
Quote:In England, they hounded the first English translators of the Latin Bible (the Vulgate) to death at the direction of the King,(burned William Tyndale at the stake,) three years later English Bibles were being produced by royal decree. It is all about timing.
Couldn't agree more with you, it is all about timing. God's timing.
[quote]Here's the rule: if good things happen, God did it. If bad things happen, people are at fault.
God apparently takes all of the authority and none of the blame.
Everything that happens, whether good or bad is either inspried by God, led by God, or merely ALLOWED by God. But, it still all comes down to us, as human beings, making the choice between following the mandates of God or not.[/color]
Quote:I was under the impression that Jesus was supposed to do only what he was told to do by God, I don't think he had control of the situation.
Hmmm... If Jesus was on remote control, how are humans supposed to identify with that?
Quote:Everything that happens, whether good or bad is either inspried by God, led by God, or merely ALLOWED by God. But, it still all comes down to us, as human beings, making the choice between following the mandates of God or not.
And the innocent who are killed or maimed in a earthquake or who are lined up and shot by some yops claiming to be messagers of some god or other, what choice did they make? When the little old lady down the street is run over by a bus, is that inspired, led or allowed? And if the light was green for her which mandate did she fail to adhere to? Cut it out.
Look, life is unfair. Bad things happen. Good things happen. Neither of those events depends upon the interference or influence of a god or many gods. It just is. You can follow the mandates of whatever priest has told you were the words of a god to the letter and still have horrible things occur in your life. You can be an amoral bastard and live a life of bliss.
Holy words are meaningless in the face of reality. Reality reveals their hollowness.
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Jesus knew just how badly humans would use his words, yet he died on the cross. He must be a god suffering from some kind of messiah complex.
Joe(pass the medications)Nation
i could care less what jesus knew or when he knew it
if however he know's the lottery numbers, i'd appreciate a PM, to let me know
Oh! I love it..... " If a good thing happens it's the work of God? If a bad thing happens... it's just because God allowed it and It's all our fault because we have choices??? going on that, I chose not to believe in religions or their different Gods... does that mean I'm no longer under any Gods or religions control... if so wouldn't that make me a God, with my own religion... like- just me?
Quote:Our choices have consequences. Plain and simple.
That is absolutely correct, but the results and effects, the consequences, come from reality and are not imposed on us by anything else.
One choice which could have severe consequences is believing that, because you are following the words of some scripture, your life is being watched over by a superior being, that you are protected.
Joe(then comes the housefire)Nation
The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike Joe. None of us gets out of this alive alive. :wink:
And you, whether you chose to believe it or not, are not protected by anything beyond this existence.
Joe(that's the real freedom)Nation
God seemed to have done an enormous amount of work in the last year or so, getting that American Idol girl an Oscar. (She was certainly convinced of that.) Maybe her god thought that would make up for Katrina?
Arella Mae wrote:Joe Nation wrote:And you, whether you chose to believe it or not, are not protected by anything beyond this existence.
Joe(that's the real freedom)Nation
Guess we'll just have to call it a stalemate Joe. Because I can't prove I am anymore than you can prove I'm not. :wink:
Sorry, kiddo, it takes two to call a stalemate. One of us is living in the real world, the other is guided by figments of imagination. One of us keeps trying to figure out which parts of the law are still law and which parts constitute the new law of grace. The other lives amongst other humans without the necessity of a superior being's voice in his head. (The quiet is actually quite soothing.) If something good or bad happens to one of us, it will be God's Will and Timing which pass understanding, for the other it will just be the way life is.
Quote:God seemed to have done an enormous amount of work in the last year or so, getting that American Idol girl an Oscar. (She was certainly convinced of that.) Maybe her god thought that would make up for Katrina?
I was hoping he'd spend less time helping Carrie and more time helping George, but so far the only thing that's happened is that George keeps playing "Jesus, Take the Wheel." on the limo CDplayer.
Joe(life is complicated enough without having to guess what the gods are going to do next.)Nation
Just so we put this 'what did Jesus know discussion' in it's proper perspective:
we know humans have been gathering in social groups for about 100,000 years, give or take 10,000 years, and that during the next 84,000 years, hundreds, if not thousands, of religions appeared, flourished and disappeared in the dust. We know the names of some of these gods, we know they were loved, feared and prayed to by their worshippers. The gods had power over fertility, weather and war.
About 6000 years ago a god appears who is a kind of combination of Baal (Lord) and Osiris (Judge). This is Abraham's god. You know the rest. Moses, Pharaohs, Commandments, desert wanderings for forty years, great wars of conquest, failings, expulsion from the promised land, gradual return to Jerusalem and the birth of Christ.
What we are asked to take on faith is that after 100,000 years of gods coming and going, this god is the real one. Not only is he real, his son the Christ is also the real God, not a separate god but one of several persons in this one god along with the Holy Spirit.
Okay.
So this is no longer the god of Abraham who was a single person-god, this is (now 2000 years ago) new. This new god has several new aspects to his character, for one thing he is not as vengeful as his father who throughout the Old Testament is constantly finding the Israelites guilty of something and causing them to be thrown into some kind of tribulation. And he dies on the cross for the sins of man and rises again from the dead. (Actually, the Christ-god of love who died and rose again is not new, there are Babylonian gods who did the same thing year after year every Spring. But nevermind that)
And this new god proclaimed by James and Paul and Peter was all-knowing. Knew all the past, knew all the future, that was really new, none of the Greek or Roman gods could tell the future, so ,,,,we have a three person god who knows everything and in the form of a man is killed and rises from the dead in order to reconnect mankind to the great Lord Judge Father God (you remember who scared the hell out of the Jews) Goodie. We are reconnected.
Right. 100,000 years and we get what? No god of fertility, no god of weather, no god of war. We do get a god of miracles every once in awhile, so I guess Christ did know that the Boston Red Sox would win a World Series at least once in 100,000 years, but for the rest what was the point of Jesus's death? We get into heaven, the poor slubs of the previous 92,000 years are left out as are the worshippers of Baal and all the previous thousands of other gods, the dopes.
So my question is this: Did Jesus know that in 5000 years there won't be a single mention of him in any history written? That he will be just as the other gods, loved for a time, feared for a time and then forgotten.
Joe(ps they won't remember the USA either)Nation
Personally, I tend to think that the bible as we have it, is a Greek interpretation of a politically motivated Judaic interpretation and thus bares little resemblance to the original teachings of the man. Unfortunately.
