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If Jesus had known...

 
 
Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 12:35 am
Arella Mae wrote:
Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
Would you mind giving scripture to back this up?


If I had said that he did know I would understand the request for scripture. Where does Jesus say: "There will be a new religion in my name, and they will murder millions and collect great wealth"? Nowhere.


Nice try at the dodge Cyracuz. You made the statement he didn't know, so it is up to you to provide your evidence for this. I can provide plenty of scripture proving otherwise.


Jesus (pbuh) knew only a few prophecies that God taught him, without God he was just a regular mortal as you and I.

"By myself I can do nothing..." (John 5:30).
0 Replies
 
Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 12:37 am
Arella Mae wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
But Jesus, being as omniscient as his Father, would have known about all the coming carnage.

Joe(merciful god)Nation


I gotta give you that one Joe. He knew of it. He also knew of those that don't partake in it too. Good to see you! It's been awhile!


So will Jesus (pbuh) die for their sins too? You can't possibly tell me Bush is going to Paradise after all this. Shocked
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cello
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 04:40 am
I was under the impression that Jesus was supposed to do only what he was told to do by God, I don't think he had control of the situation. (I have not finished reading the Bible so I can't give quotes.)

Now was he supposed to die for the people's sins at that time, knowing that they and future generations would continue their sins, and that they would use his word to commit them? What was the purpose of his dying then? It just does not make sense to me.

Arella Mae, can you please give us some scriptures that Jesus knew like you said. I am curious.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 04:44 am
Raul-7: You have to remember a couple of things, one, Christians believe Christ wasn't just your basic holyman prophet of god, they believe he was god. It's a belief that gets them in trouble in a number of ways, of course, but there it is. Two, Christians like everybody to have a shot at heaven (they are the democratic populists of the theological world.) If George or anybody else confesses his sins and accepts the belief in Christ even a second before death, all is forgiven. Cool huh?

Of course, if it's mistake to believe Christ was god, then it is a bigger mistake to believe Muhammad was anything more than he was, a holyman and a prophet. Muslims make the mistake of treating Muhammad as if he were a god, leading to all kinds of carnage. Muhammad could have at least designated somebody to take over the family business of Islam after his death. If he had we wouldn't have idiots driving flatbed trucks into lines of pilgrims.

Or maybe not. Christians have devised all sorts of ways of dividing themselves and killing each other for the past 2000 years. The Irish are voting to stop murdering one another this week.


Joe(a pox on both houses)Nation
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cello
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 05:39 am
Joe, was Jesus God or God's son?

Raul, was Mohamet a prophet who came to take the Muslim people's sins like Jesus?
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 08:13 am
Arella Mae wrote:
Nice try at the dodge Cyracuz. You made the statement he didn't know, so it is up to you to provide your evidence for this. I can provide plenty of scripture proving otherwise.


Can you provide scripture that proves Jesus knew there would be a spanish inquisition? That for hundreds of years priests in europe would rule with an iron fist, burning or otherwise disposing of all who opposed them?

Or that a crazy German dude would kill off six million people justified, in part, by the tale of Jesus?

Go right ahead then.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:11 am
cello wrote:
Arella Mae, can you please give us some scriptures that Jesus knew like you said. I am curious.


Cello,

Go to this link and read this. It will give you an overall view of what we are discussing. If you still want more, just let me know and I will get you more scripture.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-know.html
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:13 am
Cyracuz wrote:
Can you provide scripture that proves Jesus knew there would be a spanish inquisition? That for hundreds of years priests in europe would rule with an iron fist, burning or otherwise disposing of all who opposed them?

Or that a crazy German dude would kill off six million people justified, in part, by the tale of Jesus?

Go right ahead then.


Still, you have not provided anything to back up your assertion that he did not know. Here is a link I gave to cello, it should get you started also: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-know.html
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Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 01:13 pm
cello wrote:

Raul, was Mohamet a prophet who came to take the Muslim people's sins like Jesus?


No, he was a Prophet sent to give guidance and spread the word of God. Just like all the other Prophets.

Accepting Islam doesn't mean you will automatically have a sea-view villa in Paradise. It only shows you how to reach it, it's up to the person to make the effort. Thus Muslims too can end up in Hell.
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Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 01:20 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Raul-7:

Of course, if it's mistake to believe Christ was god, then it is a bigger mistake to believe Muhammad was anything more than he was, a holyman and a prophet. Muslims make the mistake of treating Muhammad as if he were a god, leading to all kinds of carnage. Muhammad could have at least designated somebody to take over the family business of Islam after his death. If he had we wouldn't have idiots driving flatbed trucks into lines of pilgrims.

Joe(a pox on both houses)Nation


I have yet to find a sect in Islam declaring Muhammad was anything more than a messenger of God. Even the Prophet pre-warned of this, hence why he commanded we bare witness by saying: "That Muhammad is His servant and His messenger."
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 01:36 pm
I think he was just showing off for Mary Magdalene...
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cello
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 06:27 pm
Raul, thanks for your explanations. Smile

Arella, thanks for the scriptures. And yes, I would be interested to read some more. Thanks for your offer. Smile
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 08:09 pm
Quote:
I have yet to find a sect in Islam declaring Muhammad was anything more than a messenger of God. Even the Prophet pre-warned of this, hence why he commanded we bare witness by saying: "That Muhammad is His servant and His messenger."


Then you might want to pass that knowledge on to your fellow Islamists who were so incensed by the depictions of His servant and his messenger in the Danish cartoons that they felt it necessary to burn down churchs and commit riots and murders throughout the world.

Oh, and ask Salman Rushdie if his portrayal of Muhammad justified the death sentence put on his head by those sects that you apparently cannot locate. Here, I'll help, it was Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

Joe(totally bizarre behavior in defense of a religion of peace)Nation
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 09:14 pm
arella mae wrote:
Still, you have not provided anything to back up your assertion that he did not know. Here is a link I gave to cello, it should get you started also



That link proves nothing, certainly not that Jesus knew what the thousands of years after his death would bring.

But there is mention in the bible that Jesus suspected that he would be arrested. Note "suspected". If he didn't even know that for sure, how could he have known the rest?
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Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 09:27 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
I have yet to find a sect in Islam declaring Muhammad was anything more than a messenger of God. Even the Prophet pre-warned of this, hence why he commanded we bare witness by saying: "That Muhammad is His servant and His messenger."


Then you might want to pass that knowledge on to your fellow Islamists who were so incensed by the depictions of His servant and his messenger in the Danish cartoons that they felt it necessary to burn down churchs and commit riots and murders throughout the world.

Oh, and ask Salman Rushdie if his portrayal of Muhammad justified the death sentence put on his head by those sects that you apparently cannot locate. Here, I'll help, it was Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

Joe(totally bizarre behavior in defense of a religion of peace)Nation


This has more to do with respect than with anything else; God's Prophets shouldn't be protrayed at all, especially not for humor or satire.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:51 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
arella mae wrote:
Still, you have not provided anything to back up your assertion that he did not know. Here is a link I gave to cello, it should get you started also



That link proves nothing, certainly not that Jesus knew what the thousands of years after his death would bring.

But there is mention in the bible that Jesus suspected that he would be arrested. Note "suspected". If he didn't even know that for sure, how could he have known the rest?


....slain before the foundations of the earth..... He knew before the earth was even created that He would be slain for mankind.

Could you give me the scripture for this "suspected". Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen. He said, "tear this temple down and in three days I will raise it up again." He was talking about Himself. He knew.

Now, where is your scripture to back up the fact that you think he did not know?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:53 pm
cello wrote:
Raul, thanks for your explanations. Smile

Arella, thanks for the scriptures. And yes, I would be interested to read some more. Thanks for your offer. Smile


I will post them for you tomorrow.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 04:07 am
Raul-7: This thread is supposed to be about Jesus and the Nixonian Question "What did he know and when did he know it?" which is about as ridiculous an inquiry as I can imagine.

Yet, I need to say something when you say this:
Quote:
This has more to do with respect than with anything else; God's Prophets shouldn't be protrayed at all, especially not for humor or satire.


I ask "Why not?" I will also tell you.

It's to make sure that no one looks too carefully at just what ideas those prophets, gurus, priests, pastors, bishops, immans are trying to foist on innocent people. There is no more truth to the idea that a superior being has a particular and peculiar interest in you than there is to the idea that the number 13 is bad luck. Right?

But there is something else here too. If we take the notion that holymen are somehow beyond examination, then we become reticent about making any criticism about them even when they are clearly in the wrong. And that's is wrong, my friend, and dishonest.

It allows people like Khomeini to actually threaten a writer with death and Khomeini stilll remains uncriticized by his Muslim brethren. It allows Osama bin Laden to operate his death squads and his Muslim brethren speak not against him. It allows Catholic Archbishops to shelter sex-abusers in their parsonages and to attempt to silence any criticism of such holymen. It allows people like Pat Robertson to attempt to blame the attacks of 9-11 on homosexuals and to ignore the brief outcry that followed those remarks and go on his merry way stuffing his pockets with donations of his followers.

What person is beyond criticism? None. What idea is beyond examination? None.
===

We now return to the discussion as to whether Jesus knew that his followers would perform despicable acts in his name.

He is apparently an all-powerful god who has his hands tied.

Joe(Should I be afraid of meeting 13 triskaidekaphobiacs?)Nation
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Mar, 2007 05:45 am
Arella Mae, seems I was off on that one. Couldn't find it... Sorry. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't think Jesus knew what would follow.

If he did, that doesn't make him out to be all that good, now does it? I mean, if he knew that he would be used as an excuse for all kinds of attrocities wordwide for thousands of years, and still went through with what he did, then is that all good?

But I just remembered that I don't really believe in all this. This discussion deals with the hypothetical as far as I'm concerned. Just thought I'd let you know.
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kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 07:27 am
the bible teaches that JEsus has all the divine excellencies, and in these he is co-equal, consubstantial, and co-eternal with God the father....
john 1:1, 8:58,10:30, 14:9
Col 1: 15-17
hebrews 1:2
isaiah 9:6

Now these are only a few...more can be provided if you need...
For Christ to be equal and have all the qualities of God, he would have to be omniscient as God is. The bible also shows us that while on earth, Christ spoke of his betrayal and death and resurrection, all prior to its occurance... To say that Christ didn't know what would happen to him contradicts the scriptures.
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