SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

hamburger wrote:

foxfire wrote :

Quote:
I AM suggesting that given evidence that church attendance and religiosity has a positive influence on kids that extends to their behavior and attitude about school, the school would be well advised not to interfere or blatantly or inadvertently discourage it.

certainly , if children WANT to go to church , the temple , the mosque , there is no reason why they shouldn't .
doesn't 'freedom of religion' allow for that ?

as for children 'being better' (just my words) if they attend church ... : my personal observation is that it doesn't seem make much of a difference .
hbg

My personal observation is that the kids who are going to churches I have attended, with or without their parents, are mostly not getting into drugs, not getting pregnant, not skipping school, not having run ins with the law, and most of them go on to higher education. Secular youth organizations that I have been involved with don't have that good a track record. That is my own limited experience which being anecdotal is of course quite limited.

I was therefore interested to see the findings of the Jeremiah Project and that it seems to back up what I have personally experienced. I was especially interested to see the results involving troubled kids and how inclusion of church seems to be helping some do better. And the term I'm using is "doing better" as in behavior, not "being better" as in superior.

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I'm still sceptical.

In my anecdoctal experiance, I learned more about responcibility, follow-through, health, and in general about making wise decisions from my very secular taekwondo class as a youth. Inversely, in the church youth group I learned about "group-think," a dangerous messege to youth that in my opinion cna make a youth MORE vulnerable to peer pressure and thus make poor choices.

Teach kids
-respect, because they want to be respected
-accountability, so they can never have to face extreme consequence
-hard work, so that they will be driven
-independance, so that they critical thinkers
-etc, etc

Give people a reason to be good beyond the consequence of sin. I'm sure you didn't murder anyone today? Was it because of the bible? I hope not. I certainly hope that something beyond what is in some book kept you from hurting someone.

The motivation to be good in Christian terms is LIMITED. I say people can do better.

Assuming that a Church is going to keep kids away from drugs, or crime is a pipe dream.

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Do you have any studies you can cite, Deist, that would dispute the studies that lead to the Jeremiah Project conclusion?

I certainly have not said, and they aren't saying, that all kids not going to church or experiencing religion are going bad. The conclusion is, however, that on broadbased studies, those troubled kids exposed to church and religion are straightening out on a larger scale than those who are not exposed to church and religion.

That should not be interpreted that they think any kid going to church is going to stay out of trouble or any kid not going to church is doomed to be in trouble.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Do you have any studies you can cite, Deist, that would dispute the studies that lead to the Jeremiah Project conclusion?

I have no studies that prove that sending kids to church will have the opposite effect; make more negitive descisions.

But that's not what you mean, I know. No I don't but I think the point is that I just don't think that the study you've provided isolates ithe infuences well enough.

I could prove to you that being American is likey to lead you to being more educated etc, when compared to the world population as a whole, but it wouldn't mean that specifically "being American" as opposed to everything else that coinincides with it.

As posted earlier, I'm not surprized that children in churches are also exhibiting these behaivors. However the Jeremiah project doesn't establish that (disprove) that the relationship isn't the opposite. i.e. - Children who make positive desicions have a greater applitude to go to church.

that's just too hard to prove, and further, plenty of children who make good desicions aren't going to church.

Don't get me wrong.

Chrches are a good place for children to be: Away from the infulences of drugs, violence, etc. However, it's more the people and not the institution. Have the best; most righteous church but let it be full of the worst people, and you can't expect the same results.

Credit to the people, not the devine.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Do you have any studies to show that support your findings there? The Jeremiah Project does.

About the European situation?

Church going in Europe data can be found via the source I gave earlier.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Do you have any studies to show that support your findings there? The Jeremiah Project does.

About the European situation?

Church going in Europe data can be found via the source I gave earlier.

Foxfyre wrote:

My personal observation is that the kids who are going to churches I have attended, with or without their parents, are mostly not getting into drugs, not getting pregnant, not skipping school, not having run ins with the law, and most of them go on to higher education. Secular youth organizations that I have been involved with don't have that good a track record. That is my own limited experience which being anecdotal is of course quite limited.

My personal experiences as a "youthworker" (in leading position in our state and overviewing the situation there for nearly ten years) is different.

But I really think that has a lot do with the influence of religion in everyday's life in various regions - as it is to be seen here, too.

Besides that, even in stron catholic parts of our stae (like where I live) only 20% of the population goes to church regularily - something, always happened "traditionally" ('church going is something for women').

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Diest TKO wrote:

I'm still sceptical.

In my anecdoctal experiance, I learned more about responcibility, follow-through, health, and in general about making wise decisions from my very secular taekwondo class as a youth. Inversely, in the church youth group I learned about "group-think," a dangerous messege to youth that in my opinion cna make a youth MORE vulnerable to peer pressure and thus make poor choices.

Teach kids
-respect, because they want to be respected
-accountability, so they can never have to face extreme consequence
-hard work, so that they will be driven
-independance, so that they critical thinkers
-etc, etc

Give people a reason to be good beyond the consequence of sin. I'm sure you didn't murder anyone today? Was it because of the bible? I hope not. I certainly hope that something beyond what is in some book kept you from hurting someone.

The motivation to be good in Christian terms is LIMITED. I say people can do better.

Assuming that a Church is going to keep kids away from drugs, or crime is a pipe dream.

All those things you mention about teaching kids - I see daily in my daughter's Christian school. I do believe there are some more extreme Christian Churches/schools that only teach as you point out about Christian terms. I actually saw such a one when I was looking for schools for my daughter. Fortunately there are now many more that teach about respect, accountability, etc. rather than if you do this God will be angry. They absolutely teach about critical thinking and many that go onto public schools in high school from this particular school, end up being top students in their classes.

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Linkat, I went to a Christian school as a kid, but I recognize that my experience is not representative of all. Looking back, my school failed because we were taught the 'answers' without being allowed to question.

Knowing the truth is not very conducive to learning.

Actually in my case this experience unintentionly helped me think independently because I rebelled. I was a horrible student (and was even paddled more than once) but turned out to be a very good learner.

I am curious if at your daughter's school, they are able to teach real independent thought on current issues outside of the religious subculture.

I don't know how old your daughter is, but is she able to independantly wrestle with issues like the conflict between the Bible and science, and tolerating and understanding the existance of homosexuality in society?

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children are sent to church to atone for the sins of their parents.

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Diest TKO wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Do you have any studies you can cite, Deist, that would dispute the studies that lead to the Jeremiah Project conclusion?

I have no studies that prove that sending kids to church will have the opposite effect; make more negitive descisions.

But that's not what you mean, I know. No I don't but I think the point is that I just don't think that the study you've provided isolates ithe infuences well enough.

I could prove to you that being American is likey to lead you to being more educated etc, when compared to the world population as a whole, but it wouldn't mean that specifically "being American" as opposed to everything else that coinincides with it.

As posted earlier, I'm not surprized that children in churches are also exhibiting these behaivors. However the Jeremiah project doesn't establish that (disprove) that the relationship isn't the opposite. i.e. - Children who make positive desicions have a greater applitude to go to church.

that's just too hard to prove, and further, plenty of children who make good desicions aren't going to church.

Don't get me wrong.

Chrches are a good place for children to be: Away from the infulences of drugs, violence, etc. However, it's more the people and not the institution. Have the best; most righteous church but let it be full of the worst people, and you can't expect the same results.

Credit to the people, not the devine.

Perhaps the Jeremiah Project is not conclusive, but it is certainly more persuasive than any scientific argument I've seen yet and I've seen no studies to disprove it. It don't think what brand of religion any particular church is pushing is factored into the equation nor, unless I skipped over it, does the religious group have to be Christian.

But if they reached a sound conclusion that at risk kids display significantly less truancy, delinquency, criminality, recidivism, etc. when they attend church, I do think that is something that we should look at more closely.

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Haven't read the entire study just yet, but I noticed that the headline states that "religion" is the crime-cutting factor. This would seem to mean any religion. Maybe we should get our kids to the mosque? Do you, Foxfyre, see a need to differentiate, or do you think any religion will do?

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I might have expressed my previous question unclear ...

Foxfyre wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

I AM suggesting that given evidence that church attendance and religiosity has a positive influence on kids that extends to their behavior and attitude about school, the school would be well advised not to interfere or blatantly or inadvertently discourage it.

Fine. So you think that Europeans (and especially, Germans, English, Welsh, Scottish, Dabish, Swedish, French etc) would have get a betzter behaviour, less crime, less poverty etc if we became regular church goers? (That is: become religious before, I think.)

If I had thought that Walter, I would have said that. I didn't.

... but since you say it here again, I'll try to put it differently.

Most - if not all - European countries have a low percentage of church goers, especially the youth is rarely going to churches.

Germany might be significant low besides the Scandinavian countries and some others.

But e.g. any European country (even the UK) has a much smaller prison population than the USA.

So do you believe that here as well children/youth would show "significantly less truancy, delinquency, criminality, recidivism, etc. when they attend church"?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I might have expressed my previous question unclear ...

Foxfyre wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

I AM suggesting that given evidence that church attendance and religiosity has a positive influence on kids that extends to their behavior and attitude about school, the school would be well advised not to interfere or blatantly or inadvertently discourage it.

Fine. So you think that Europeans (and especially, Germans, English, Welsh, Scottish, Dabish, Swedish, French etc) would have get a betzter behaviour, less crime, less poverty etc if we became regular church goers? (That is: become religious before, I think.)

If I had thought that Walter, I would have said that. I didn't.

... but since you say it here again, I'll try to put it differently.

Most - if not all - European countries have a low percentage of church goers, especially the youth is rarely going to churches.

Germany might be significant low besides the Scandinavian countries and some others.

But e.g. any European country (even the UK) has a much smaller prison population than the USA.

So do you believe that here as well children/youth would show "significantly less truancy, delinquency, criminality, recidivism, etc. when they attend church"?

The study was not addressing Germany or any European country, so the issue is moot. If they had included European children in the studies, and found that per capita church goers got into trouble less than do non church goers, would that sway your opinion? They did find that to be the case here.

Probably some people who hate church, hate Christians and/or Christianity, hate religion, don't go to church, didn't send their kids to church, prefer Atheism or don't just don't get involved in any form of religion want to be validated by discrediting the Jeremiah Project or showing how it is in error. But if it isn't in error, and we care about the kids, why wouldn't it be something to consider in helping at risk kids?

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Here's my unscientific opinion. Children need to feel connected. If they don't feel connected to family, church, school, a sports team, or some other positive community, they will find that connectedness elsewhere, in gangs, criminal friends, or some other negative organization. Or worse, they will flounder. I think that church's can often be a positive factor in a community, especially if it is active in trying to improve that community. But religion, by itself, isn't necessary or sufficient to raise up moral children.

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Foxfyre wrote:

The study was not addressing Germany or any European country, so the issue is moot. If they had included European children in the studies, and found that per capita church goers got into trouble less than do non church goers, would that sway your opinion? They did find that to be the case here.

Probably some people who hate church, hate Christians and/or Christianity, hate religion, don't go to church, didn't send their kids to church, prefer Atheism or don't just don't get involved in any form of religion want to be validated by discrediting the Jeremiah Project or showing how it is in error. But if it isn't in error, and we care about the kids, why wouldn't it be something to consider in helping at risk kids?

You might have missed some of my previous posts.
I have been working professionally on a rather high level in this subject, in our state.
I have developed a couple of projects, done dozens more myself and worked academically in child-/youth prevention as well.

I noticed, of course, that the quoted report was about the US only and only referring to studies made in some states/regions of the USA.

But if church going (and as you said yourself, it's not even referring to Christianity alone) works so good in the USA, it certainly would work as good elsewhere.

I have no doubts that it might be suitable for some or even for more.

But children working 18 hours on seven days of the week might show the same effects. (Look up the children/youth criminality until the 18th century.)

I believe more on an individual approach.

As do, btw, our churches here: no-one forces members of the church youth to go to church services - in that case, they truely could close them.

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Don't you have to include the numbers/findings from europe?

if something is effective here but not there, then the dependant varible isn't church, it's some other factor.

Quote:

Perhaps the Jeremiah Project is not conclusive, but it is certainly more persuasive than any scientific argument I've seen yet and I've seen no studies to disprove it. It don't think what brand of religion any particular church is pushing is factored into the equation nor, unless I skipped over it, does the religious group have to be Christian.

The only science we can hope to evaluate is observational social science, which is always inconclusive or at most just unimpressive.

Quote:

All those things you mention about teaching kids - I see daily in my daughter's Christian school. I do believe there are some more extreme Christian Churches/schools that only teach as you point out about Christian terms. I actually saw such a one when I was looking for schools for my daughter. Fortunately there are now many more that teach about respect, accountability, etc. rather than if you do this God will be angry. They absolutely teach about critical thinking and many that go onto public schools in high school from this particular school, end up being top students in their classes.

I am pleased to hear this. I still give credit to the people, not the insitution. You and your daughter are fortunate then to have a caring faculty. I do share a curiosity with ebrown_p in wondering how much REAL independant thought is being allowed.

For instance, would your daughter be able to question teachings? If she needed to understand "how" and "why" beyond "what," what responce would she get?

If a classmate identified themselves as Gay, what would the responce be by the faculty? How would they model their behaivor? How od you want them to react?

If a classmate was to become pregnant...etc.

I went to public school, and all of my worst senarios have happened there, so I don't mean to suggest that ONLY relgious schools restrict independant thought. The difference is the institution being private versus public. In the public arena you have a better platform to fight/think for yourself.

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One other thing.

I think there are benifits to both secular and relgious orginizations.

I think of all the values that have been discussed here, and I think about where I have learned my lessons. sometimes things can't be taught, you can only be given the opportunity to practice.

Patience for instance. how would you teach it? I say an individual can only have the chance to learn kinetically.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Here's my unscientific opinion. Children need to feel connected. If they don't feel connected to family, church, school, a sports team, or some other positive community, they will find that connectedness elsewhere, in gangs, criminal friends, or some other negative organization. Or worse, they will flounder. I think that church's can often be a positive factor in a community, especially if it is active in trying to improve that community. But religion, by itself, isn't necessary or sufficient to raise up moral children.

Sounds pretty reasonable for an unscientific opinion.

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I agree. (I didn't work differently at all Laughing

)

I just want to add to FreeDuck's response that the quoted report isn't about religion per se but about church going.
That's even more than one step further.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Haven't read the entire study just yet, but I noticed that the headline states that "religion" is the crime-cutting factor. This would seem to mean any religion. Maybe we should get our kids to the mosque? Do you, Foxfyre, see a need to differentiate, or do you think any religion will do?

You apparently haven't read much of the thread either or you would have seen more than one incident in which I posted that the study did not seem to put any importance on what brand of religiosity was involved or that it be Christian or any other specific faith.

The whole point was focused on one issue and one issue only. Evaluting broad based studies, the evidence appears to indicate that all other things being equal, kids who attend church will have lower rates of truancy, delinquency, criminality, and recidivism.

The group seems to want it to be anything other than the church/religiosity experience that is the cause of the positive influence, but nobody has yet come up with anything to dispute it.

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