SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

Re: SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

ebrown_p wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
In 1998, the Manhattan Institute did perhaps the most exhaustive scientific study ever done on the effect of religion on America's youth with emphasis on delinquency, truancy, criminal recidivism, etc. The study entitled "The Jeremiah Project" seems to conclude that church attendance and/or practicing a religious faith is a significant factor in reducing anti social behavior and also in reducing poverty.

If the rather impressive findings are correct, not only is a religious faith and church attendance important for a more peaceful and orderly society, but we should definitely rethink what it may be doing to our kids when we send signals that God or religion is inappropriate in the schools.

Come on Foxfyre!

You started this thread with excessive hype over "the most exhaustive study" with "impressive findings". It turns out it is not even a study.

Then you you make a controversial unfounded claim that promotes a dubious social policy (pushing religion in schools) that many Americans find both offensive and dangerous.

What do you expect?

If you had refrained from misrepresenting the article... or from pushing your opinion on us so forcefully, you might have received more tempered responses.

I'll give you that I should have explained the thesis as being from an article based on studies rather than inadvertently giving the impression that the writer(s) based the thesis on his/their own study.

I did not, nor have I ever "pushed religion in the schools'.

I did express my opinion that IF the information in the article is correct, educators should rethink what they are doing when they discourage religious references in the schools. I did not express an opinion as to the validity of the article.

Now you tell me exactly how any of that is inappropriate when I offered a particularly interesting (to me) article as a basis for discussion of a particular topic?

And if you can cite another source other than this one that even discusses this particular issue in a comprehensive way, I would be delighted to see it. Otherwise, I continue to hold an opinion that the Jeremiah Project may offer the most thorough and focused information available on this particular subject regardless of the sources of the information compiled.

Finally, why are you so offended at a thesis that church going may be good for kids?

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reply to original post:
Foxfyre, even though I am not Christian, I agree with you entirely. Children don't get enough moral education. In fact, it doesn't have to be Christianity, they just need to learn basic values. Believe it or not, some atheists have values as well!

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I remember having read ( a survey done by barro, I think) that going to church often has negative influences in economy.

Well, that might be as true as what what Foxfire's report concludes.

I'm only wondering, why e.g. Germany with such a low number of regular church-goers (8.4% go to church once per week; in Denmark, with a state church, only 3.8%; in Catholic Spain 19.8%) and many other European countries have a much smaller prison population than the USA. [Data from the European Social Survey]

You can "prove" everything with statistics - at least that's what Foxfyre usually tells me.

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aperson wrote:

reply to original post:
Foxfyre, even though I am not Christian, I agree with you entirely. Children don't get enough moral education. In fact, it doesn't have to be Christianity, they just need to learn basic values. Believe it or not, some atheists have values as well!

Aperson,

You are making a logical mistake. We all believe that chidren should be taught values. The point is that in a secular diverse society, these values should be taught without religous baggage.

There is a difference between "moral education", teaching the basic values that are generally accepted in society (i.e. service and respect) and indoctrination, teaching one set of rules from from a particular part of society (i.e. homosexuality is a sin).

Religion is very good at indoctrinating kids. If you only want to give them a basic "moral education' religion is completely unecessary.

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aperson wrote:

reply to original post:
Foxfyre, even though I am not Christian, I agree with you entirely. Children don't get enough moral education. In fact, it doesn't have to be Christianity, they just need to learn basic values. Believe it or not, some atheists have values as well!

Thank you aperson. And never mind ebrown. His posts generally suggest that he considers any opinion but his own to be illogical and, at least so far, is more interested in trashing people or concepts or methodology than in actually discussing any issue.

I appreciate your comments very much.

I agree 100% that ethical values did not originate with Christianity nor can Christianity claim to be the sole repository of them now. I disagree (with others) that religion indoctrinates kids any more than do those who attempt to denigrate religion. If one person tells a kid that going to church is beneficial and another person says he's better off not going to church, which one is doing indoctrination? If the Church says it is better to get married before you have kids and somebody else says it is okay to have kids outside of marriage, are not both putting forward a particular value? Who can say one indoctrinates more than the other?

So the issue here are not all the red herrings some are throwing out there. The issue isn't that some priests or pastors have set bad examples or have done bad things to kids. The issue isn't that some don't seem to benefit from church or some religious people have squirrly ideas. The issue isn't whether more people go to church in one country than in another country. The issue isn't even whether it is necessary to believe in God.

The issue, according to the Jeremiah Project, is whether it is beneficial for kids to attend church. They say the evidence strongly suggests that it is. And if it is, how much sense does it make to discourage that or for the schools to make it appear as if religion is unacceptable and taboo in the schools?

I'm not advocating at all that the schools include religion as a matter of policy or practice other than in a historical sense. I'm only advocating that the schools not encourage kids to not be religious.

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Quote:

There is a difference between "moral education", teaching the basic values that are generally accepted in society (i.e. service and respect) and indoctrination, teaching one set of rules from from a particular part of society (i.e. homosexuality is a sin).

Religion is very good at indoctrinating kids. If you only want to give them a basic "moral education' religion is completely unecessary.

when i went to highschool in germany in the late 1940's , 'religion' was taught in the context of the religions of the world ; there was no religious instruction .
to the best of my knowledge , all of us - we were a class of 30 plus students - have been living in this world without becoming social misfits .
my best friend in germany (we started school together in grade one) is a very dedicated lutheran ; i don't belong to any organised religion - still , we have maintained our friendship over all the years and respect each other .

a long way of saying i fully agree with ebrown_p .
hbg

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I can tell you that one of the best music teachers I ever had was Lutheran because she once told us how happy it made her come out of the church (in Norway) on Christmas eve and it was snowing. They were so afraid it wouldn't snow. I can tell you that a typing teacher was Seventh Day Adventist because something came up one day in class that made it appropriate for her to mention that. I can truthfully say that we kids did not have a clue what a Lutheran was or Seventh Day Adventist was from either of these teachers because they never discussed it in class.

I can't tell you what religion, if any, a single one of my other teacher in elementary, middle school, highschool, or college was except for the ones who attended my church. I can't remember any teacher ever discussing his/her faith or encouraging a child to discuss his. Nor can I remember a student led prayer preceding a special occasion being inappropriate though it certainly didn't occur on all occasions. I can remember the kids inviting a minister to preach at baccalaureate at graduation every year--it was usually a father of one of the graduates. There was never a time that kids couldn't use something religious for show and tell or that they felt uncomfortable talking about their beliefs or faiths in school. We were free to enjoy and sing Bach and Brahms and Mendehlsson and Handel and all the other great composers who wrote on great religious themes. I'm sure all the kids were not religious but they didn't indicate they felt 'left out' and I firmly believe that they did not because religion and secular were all an uncomplicated part of the social fabric.

And we had no guards at our school. Nobody feared some kid would be offered drugs or the kids were in danger of being kidnapped or shot or bombed. Kids were kids then just as much as now, but it was so uncommon that somebody got into serious trouble that it was never in our heads. The worst fear was that somebody would rat out the kid who put the frog in the principal's desk drawer.

Was it because religion was so much a part of our lives then? I don't know. But if the Jeremiah project is correct, it is worth looking at that.

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My kids have been taught about religions in a scholarly way. My son studied Christianity (as one of sections on many religions). I have no problem with that.

Hamburger makes the proper distinction between this, and religious instruction (where kids are taught they should follow certain religious precepts). Again this is the difference between education and indoctrination.

I also support the idea of student run prayer groups (in fact even the ACLU defends student run prayer groups). The issue is that no one in a official capacity with the school should be involved.

There are plenty of examples of religious people abusing their position as a public employee to promote one religion over another. Kids get hurt when this happens.

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if anyone would have brought up the idea of "student run prayer groups" when i went to school , i'm sure neither students nor teachers would have known what to think of it - i guess we would have said : "if you want to pray , do it at home or in church " .
many of us went to meetings of the YMCA - me included , even so i did not belong to any church . these we usually discussion type meetings , were we would discuss such things as : the evils of war , the power of the state ... and the next camping trip . i don't even recall that a prayer was said at any of these meetings .
those that wanted to , attented church service when they felt like it .
hbg

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I saw this on a bumper sticker...

Quote:

Don't pray in our school, and we won't think in your church.

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hamburger wrote:

if anyone would have brought up the idea of "student run prayer groups" when i went to school , i'm sure neither students nor teachers would have known what to think of it - i guess we would have said : "if you want to pray , do it at home or in church " .
many of us went to meetings of the YMCA - me included , even so i did not belong to any church . these we usually discussion type meetings , were we would discuss such things as : the evils of war , the power of the state ... and the next camping trip . i don't even recall that a prayer was said at any of these meetings .
those that wanted to , attented church service when they felt like it .
hbg

I never experienced a 'student run prayer group' at any time in my education except for student religious unions in college that were founded and run as religious support for various denomination (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) by those denominations but which were open to anybody and everybody who wanted to be a part of them. They have those even now at the University of New Mexico here in Albuquerque.

There have been afterschool programs at least in the past in which the schools provided not advocacy for, but did provide space, for church supported after school programs for latchkey kids, groups like the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, etc. All in all I never heard anything but positive assessments of such programs.

Again, the issue in the thesis in this thread is not religion in the schools. There is nothing in the Jeremiah Project that even suggests that. The issue is whether kids benefit from church attendance and religious activities. The studies cited seem to agree that there is a positive influence there and this extends to reduction of truancy, delinquency, criminality, etc.

So again, I am NOT suggesting the public schools become churches nor a place where kids have religious services, etc.

I AM suggesting that given evidence that church attendance and religiosity has a positive influence on kids that extends to their behavior and attitude about school, the school would be well advised not to interfere or blatantly or inadvertently discourage it.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I AM suggesting that given evidence that church attendance and religiosity has a positive influence on kids that extends to their behavior and attitude about school, the school would be well advised not to interfere or blatantly or inadvertently discourage it.

Fine. So you think that Europeans (and especially, Germans, English, Welsh, Scottish, Dabish, Swedish, French etc) would have get a betzter behaviour, less crime, less poverty etc if we became regular church goers? (That is: become religious before, I think.)

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Re: SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

Foxfyre wrote:

we should definitely rethink what it may be doing to our kids when we send signals that God or religion is inappropriate in the schools.

So what do you think?

I think we should encourage students to continue to study the history and development of a range of world religions within their history/society classes/programs in school.

I don't think organized religious practice has any place in school.

~~~~~~

Forty+ years ago, a little girl in my class went and stood in the hall each morning as we did a Bible reading and recited the Lords Prayer, prior to singing God Save the Queen. It wasn't nice for her, or for any of the rest of us in the class. It upset a lot of us.

The only upside was matzoh crackers to share a couple of times a year.

~~~~~~~

I think we would have been much better off using that time to learn about Michelle's religion, as well as our own, and others.

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I wonder if what Foxfyre calls "better behavior' is correlated with conformity, an inability to think critically or an unwilingness to question social norms.

When I taught in a public high school in a community with a strong evangelical base, the religious students were (in general) some of the more mediocre students. They would do their work just fine, and they would not break rules, but they lacked the joy of asking questions that other students asked.

The students who enjoyed thinking and questioning were the kids who learned and understood the most. Strangely these were not always the kids who got the best grades-- and they certainly weren't the perfectly behaved students. A mischeivious, even rebellious, spark is often benficial to true learning.

Of course this is an overgeneralization and i won't say that all of my religious kids were well behaved.

But speaking as a teacher... well behaved is not the first quality I want in a student.

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Re: SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

ehBeth wrote:

Forty+ years ago, a little girl in my class went and stood in the hall each morning as we did a Bible reading and recited the Lords Prayer, prior to singing God Save the Queen. It wasn't nice for her, or for any of the rest of us in the class. It upset a lot of us.

Well, that was fifty years with me, nothing related to some kind of governmental or other authority and it was only the Pater Noster .... but we could stay outside, if wished. In a Catholic primary school.
(They never got such an idea in grammar school later - but we did have -voluntary- school service, both Catholic and Evangelical.)

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Fine. So you think that Europeans (and especially, Germans, English, Welsh, Scottish, Dabish, Swedish, French etc) would have get a betzter behaviour, less crime, less poverty etc if we became regular church goers?

Well, I found a strange correlation in Southern Europe countries.

Disaffection towards the church goes along with the decline of criminality.

How is that?

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foxfire wrote :

Quote:

I AM suggesting that given evidence that church attendance and religiosity has a positive influence on kids that extends to their behavior and attitude about school, the school would be well advised not to interfere or blatantly or inadvertently discourage it.

certainly , if children WANT to go to church , the temple , the mosque , there is no reason why they shouldn't .
doesn't 'freedom of religion' allow for that ?

as for children 'being better' (just my words) if they attend church ... : my personal observation is that it doesn't seem make much of a difference .
hbg

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

I AM suggesting that given evidence that church attendance and religiosity has a positive influence on kids that extends to their behavior and attitude about school, the school would be well advised not to interfere or blatantly or inadvertently discourage it.

Fine. So you think that Europeans (and especially, Germans, English, Welsh, Scottish, Dabish, Swedish, French etc) would have get a betzter behaviour, less crime, less poverty etc if we became regular church goers? (That is: become religious before, I think.)

If I had thought that Walter, I would have said that. I didn't.

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Re: SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

ehBeth wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
we should definitely rethink what it may be doing to our kids when we send signals that God or religion is inappropriate in the schools.

So what do you think?

I think we should encourage students to continue to study the history and development of a range of world religions within their history/society classes/programs in school.

I don't think organized religious practice has any place in school.

~~~~~~

Forty+ years ago, a little girl in my class went and stood in the hall each morning as we did a Bible reading and recited the Lords Prayer, prior to singing God Save the Queen. It wasn't nice for her, or for any of the rest of us in the class. It upset a lot of us.

The only upside was matzoh crackers to share a couple of times a year.

~~~~~~~

I think we would have been much better off using that time to learn about Michelle's religion, as well as our own, and others.

I have no problem at all with schools teaching comparative religions or for parochial schools to teach hands on religion. I am 100% opposed to the public schools teaching hands on religion.

But that isn't what the Jeremiah Project was about. It was about looking at the effect that church going and religiosity has on the student population in general. It was not suggesting that the schools promote religion. It certainly did not suggest that there were no exceptions or anomalies in their findings, but their findings are pretty conclusive that there may be something to it. In my opinion that is worth considering and discussing.

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Francis wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Fine. So you think that Europeans (and especially, Germans, English, Welsh, Scottish, Dabish, Swedish, French etc) would have get a betzter behaviour, less crime, less poverty etc if we became regular church goers?

Well, I found a strange correlation in Southern Europe countries.

Disaffection towards the church goes along with the decline of criminality.

How is that?

Do you have any studies to show that support your findings there? The Jeremiah Project does.

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SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

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