SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

Foxfyre wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
More then 50% of inmates in California prisons are Christians.

That should tell you something about Christians and crime.

Hmmm. Just 50%? When some 80+% of Americans claim to be Christian? Indeed it could indicate something.

So where is the moral decay? If 80+% are Christian, how is morl decay because of the absence of Christianity? Are you going to blame 20-%?

The title of this thread is about "SAVING THE KIDS," and your theory is that they need to attend church. You seem to acknowledge the positive effects that are present in a church enviroment, but you seem to want to give full credit to the church and rather the structure.

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Diest TKO wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
More then 50% of inmates in California prisons are Christians.

That should tell you something about Christians and crime.

Hmmm. Just 50%? When some 80+% of Americans claim to be Christian? Indeed it could indicate something.

So where is the moral decay? If 80+% are Christian, how is morl decay because of the absence of Christianity? Are you going to blame 20-%?

The title of this thread is about "SAVING THE KIDS," and your theory is that they need to attend church. You seem to acknowledge the positive effects that are present in a church enviroment, but you seem to want to give full credit to the church and rather the structure.

No, I've been very careful not to put out a theory, at least yet. Nor was I referring to moral decay. I was just poking fun at ebrown for attempting to show that Christianity doesn't keep people out of prison when 50% of the prisoners claim to be Christian. Using his logic, 80+% of the prison population should be Christian. In other words, using his numbers, the premise of the study would appear to be correct. Smile

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Sorry Deist, my comment was an inside swipe at Foxfyre who, in another thread attempted to connect 'illegal' immigrants with non-immigration related crime, made up a claim that more than 50% of inmates in California were illegal immigrants.

Of course this logic is flawed on many levels, but I thought is was a ironically amusing connection.

However, the only two presidents who were ever proven to have commited crimes in office were regular church goers.

I haven't checked, but I would be surprised if the vast number of indicted congressmen were not regular church goers.

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Foxfyre is also grossly misrepresenting the article she sited.

I took the time to read the article and to look at some of the background information.

The authors of the article didn't do any research-- i.e. there was no study.

What the article is talking about is an "innovative' (read non-standard) way to combine the results of other studies.

Of course, this kind of "meta-study' is very prone to bias. This particular result seems to contradict facts about our society that are demonstrated by readily available data.

Do states where a greater percentage of the population attend religious services have lower crime rates?

The claim made by Foxfyre's article is highly dubious.

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Diest TKO wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
More then 50% of inmates in California prisons are Christians.

That should tell you something about Christians and crime.

Hmmm. Just 50%? When some 80+% of Americans claim to be Christian? Indeed it could indicate something.

So where is the moral decay? If 80+% are Christian, how is morl decay because of the absence of Christianity? Are you going to blame 20-%?

The title of this thread is about "SAVING THE KIDS," and your theory is that they need to attend church. You seem to acknowledge the positive effects that are present in a church enviroment, but you seem to want to give full credit to the church and rather the structure.

Maybe we should only consider those are religious-practicing Christians, the same can be said for any religion. There are those who claim to be part of that group when they do not even practice the same teachings preached by that group. In other words hypocrites and there are plenty of them, but it doesn't mean we should blame the institution.

Anyways, if everyone were to cultivate the fear of God in their minds and hearts then there would be no moral decay.

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ebrown takes exception to the piece itself it seems, but has not provided anything other than his own opinion to dispute it.

And while I appreciate Raul's take on it, the article did not in fact deal in subjective influences such as feelings or 'fear of God'. The article is dealing with a concept that church attendance and/or religious exercises have a positive inlfuence on those participating and/or have a negative influence on criminality and/or anti-social behavior.

Personally, I think it is a ocncept worth considering.

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ebrown takes exception to the piece itself it seems, but has not provided anything other than his own opinion to dispute it.

And while I appreciate Raul's take on it, the article did not in fact deal in subjective influences such as feelings or 'fear of God'. The article is dealing with a concept that church attendance and/or religious exercises have a positive inlfuence on those participating and/or have a negative influence on criminality and/or anti-social behavior.

Personally, I think it is a ocncept worth considering.

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I'm willing to entertain the idea, however I feel that if you were to isolate the several elements themselves that are contributing to successful children, being in a church would not be so infulential.

I give credit to what comes with it: Structure and support.

I may not agree with a church's teachings, but if they were willing to have my son or daughter in a safe after schhol program, I wouldn't discourage my child from attending. I'll give credit to the church where it belongs. If a program is sucessful, it's not because of it's fundamental beliefs as much as it is because of the people willing to deticate their time.

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I was simply pointing out what the piece was; not a scientific study, but a meta-analysis of other studies by a biased organization.

The real problem with the article is what is represents. The idea that everyone in America should be given religion... especially through public school and other public institutions, is dangerous.

My kids read the Bible, understand and discuss Darwin intelligently, discuss evidences for God with an atheist friend and are spend time with a gay couple who are friends of our family. They have been to a couple of churches (we made them try it out) and then were given the freedom to opt out (which the two older ones have).

The problem with the more fundamentalist religions-- whether the Christian brand of Foxfyre, or the Muslim flavor of Raul is that they demand that a person limit their experience and their thinking. The rich diversity of Modern American culture, from gay marriage to modern science are threats. The irony is that Foxfyre, as a Christian, and Raul, as a Muslim almost certainly would see each other as a threat if they met.

At times I feel bad for the children of fundamentalist Christians I know. They have an identity placed on them from on high and don't get the range of good experiences that many other children have. They are given a set of beliefs that few of them really question even through young adulthood. You miss the chance to grow and develop intellectually and even spiritually (and I speak from experience).

However religious parents are part of the diversity I appreciate, and there isn't much to do about the children of the religious.

The idea that there should be a public institutionalized effort to push religion on kids, especially through schools, is a very bad idea.

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Re: SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

Foxfyre wrote:

So what do you think?

I have two thoughts about it. (1) I'm not sure that your premise, `more religion leads to less crime', is true. (2) Even if it was true, I still don't think schools should advocate for or against religion.

(1) To persuade me that more religion does indeed mean less crime, it takes more than a conservative think tank study affirming the conservative think tank's mission. By searching Google Scholar for "religion crime", I tried to get a sense of where peer-reviewed scientific literature comes down on the subject. Judging by the abstracts from the first page of hits, sociologists and criminologists seem about equally divided between two conclusions: Some find a very weak negative correlation between religion and crime, but don't say which way causation goes. Others find that even the correlation goes away if you control for other, secular factors. That's very weak evidence to base social policy on. (Shocked as I am to say it, I agree with Setanta here.)

(2) In my opinion, schools exist to teach the truth, as best they know it. On the other hand, there is no reason to think the key points of the Bible are true. Rather, the existence of the Abrahamic god, and of a Moses who received commandments from him on Mount Sinai, and of a Jesus who is the god's son, who resurrected the dead and died for us on a cross -- they are all just pretty stories without any good evidence to support them. I don't want teachers to teach myths to my child and tell them they're true -- even if the government finds it useful for my child to believe those myths.

The good stuff that's in the Bible -- concepts like the Golden Rule, "love thy neighbor", and grace -- can all be taught as win-win strategies for reasonable humans. To persuade, they need no reference to any particular religion. It's the darker corners of Christianity (and other religions) that need faith to protect them against rational scrutiny. With this in mind, I have no problem with ethics classes in schools where teachers teach the golden rule, conflict resolution, and things like this. Current constitutional law has no problem with it either. But I don't see the value of adding religion to the mix.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

I remember going to church camp. it was great. I got laid more than Bill Clinton there.

Oh, now you're telling me! Say, do they have church camps for 38 year olds in America? I'm in desparate need of getting laid these days. I also think this would soothe my aggressions and pre-empt any danger of me turning criminal.

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Thomas wrote:

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
I remember going to church camp. it was great. I got laid more than Bill Clinton there.

Oh, now you're telling me! Say, do they have church camps for 38 year olds in America? I'm in desparate need of getting laid these days. I also think this would soothe my aggressions and pre-empt any danger of me turning criminal.

let me know when you're goijg to be in the neighborhood and I'll talk to a few people. I'm well connected with the Baptisits...

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I think a lot of well meaning people, in this case including Foxfyre, confuse church and religion with a decent upbringing and instilling character and morals in children.

If time were spent at home teaching by both word and example the tenets of decent and moral behavior that all religions have in common (on paper) we'd be a hell of a lot better off than we are by putting so much emphasis on religion and churches which are merely organizations and buildings.

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ebrown_p wrote:

The authors of the article didn't do any research

Actually I think that's a bit harsh. If you search Google Scholar for the authors of the article, you find that Larson and Johnson have published on the subject in reputable, peer-reviewed journals such as Justice Quarterly. However, the findings that made it through peer review are much narrower than what they say in the (non-peer-reviewed) article Foxfyre had cited.

Foxfyre wrote:

ebrown takes exception to the piece itself it seems, but has not provided anything other than his own opinion to dispute it.

Let me try to take ebrown's objections, as I understand them, and put them to you from a different angle. Suppose there was a Buddhist think tank on a similar mission as the Manhattan Institute. They conduct a similar criminological study as the Jeremiah project did. The study finds out that Buddhism is even more successful than Christianity at reducing juvenile delinquency and other crime. In fact, Buddhist temple attendance leads to even more peaceful neighborhoods than church attendence, according to the study. I'm curious how you would react in such a scenario.

(1) Would you take such a study at face value, without any suspicion that the Buddhist think tank might have published something self-serving?

(2) Assuming that you found the study solid, would you say "forget Christianity in schools"? Would you demand that teachers instill Buddhism in American children instead?

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

let me know when you're goijg to be in the neighborhood and I'll talk to a few people. I'm well connected with the Baptisits...

Okay. Looks like it's going to be early May, instead of April which was originally planned. I'm looking forward to this Baptist neighbor-lovin already.

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Take this study for example.

Transcendental Meditation reduces crime (From Mararishi University)

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hamburger wrote:

i hope someone remembers the sex crimes committed against childern and juveniles by a variety of members of some churches .
further one should keep in mind that the people commiting these crimes were usually people in a position of trust !
the parents trusted these people and they would no doubt tell their children to trust these people .
i know that these deviants are the minority , but one would do well to remember the untold pain these people have been able to inflict on innocent children .
so how would these occurences have been reflected in the study by the institute ?
i have nothing against children attending church , but i think parents better keep a close eye on them - a very close one imo .
hbg

I think as you state that these are in the minority if so there would be little impact in the study. Also, I am sure there are in the minority attendees of churches that are not family oriented and do not participate in their child's life. The jist of the study is that in the majority this is true.

There are also deviants in all aspects of life, unfortunately, and in many where people are put in a position of trust. Doctors, teachers, counselors, policemen, etc.

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ebrown_p wrote:

More then 50% of inmates in California prisons are Christians.

That should tell you something about Christians and crime.

I wonder how many become Christians after they get into prison.

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Linkat wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
More then 50% of inmates in California prisons are Christians.

That should tell you something about Christians and crime.

I wonder how many become Christians after they get into prison.

You notice that this would emphasize Foxfyre's point, which is that Christians are less likely than Non-Christians to get themselves into prison?

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Thomas wrote:

Linkat wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
More then 50% of inmates in California prisons are Christians.

That should tell you something about Christians and crime.

I wonder how many become Christians after they get into prison.

You notice that this would emphasize Foxfyre's point, which is that Christians are less likely than Non-Christians to get themselves into prison?

Actually I have heard alot of prison becoming Christians once they get into prison. I believe many of it has to do with the fact of so many missionsaries targeting prisons. Many of these prisonors never had any positive influences, some one willing to help them, etc. and here comes some body telling them that God loves them and they can be saved. I would imagine for many of these people it is quite a powerful statement and something positive for them to cling to.

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ebrown_p wrote:

The problem with the more fundamentalist religions-- whether the Christian brand of Foxfyre, or the Muslim flavor of Raul is that they demand that a person limit their experience and their thinking.

A very fair summary of concern.

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SAVE OUR KIDS: GET THEM TO CHURCH!!!

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