Atheism has the same logical flaws as religion

Folks

Many of you are going way far afield of the issue being discussed in this thread. This thread is not about whether there is a God; are gods; or are no gods. This thread is about whether or not Portal can PROVE that agnosticism is the only logical religious viewpoint.

Now you guys all know from past experience that I am a consumate agnostic -- and that I consider agnosticism to be more logical and more ethical than either theism or atheism. In fact you know that I tend to tout agnosticism at every opportunity.

But there is no way I will ever assert that agnosticism is the only logical religious viewpoint.

Frankly, I don't think it is -- and I don't think Portal has even presented arguments that attempt to prove it is -- let alone arguments that actually do the job.

For those of you who review the evidence and are pursuaded that there is a God -- I say: I don't see the evidence the way you do, but good luck to you.

For those of you who review the evidence and are pursuaded that there are no gods -- I say: I don't see the evidence the way you do, but good luck to you.

To Portal I say: How's your golf game? I managed to shoot a 38 on the front nine today -- and a 51 on the back. (For the non-golfers here: The 38 was a very, very respectable score; the 51 sucked big time.)

0 Replies

Well, you beat up on him for that, Frank . . .

I'm gonna go after him for the title . . . there is simply no way to demonstrate the statement offered in the title without positing atheists who are, in fact, not atheist.

0 Replies

I am still waiting for a shred of evidence that shows any logic at all for belief in any sort of god.

0 Replies

There is more scientific evidence that a God does not exist then there is evidence that a God does exist, at least within the confines of a semantic definition. Aristotle merely described "God" as "The Great Mover." His concept is that whatever a God or God-like entity is, it's not looking down on Earth in any particular consequence and certainly not down on each individual to see if their are good or evil. Leave that to Santa Claus (naughty or nice?)

0 Replies

BTW, in the news is in Forest, Ohio a preacher was praying for a sign from God. Lighting struck the church and set it on fire.

0 Replies

Hmm, i wonder what the preacher thinks god was saying.

0 Replies

You really piss me off, boy . . .

0 Replies

I haven't seen any evidence of any god created by man that comes close to that definition. I see nature as the over-riding influence in our lives. Natural disasters do not discriminate who is killed or not killed depending on their religious beliefs. The secondary influence on our lives is man-made. Our genetics and the environment in which we live are the over-riding influence in our lives. It has nothing to do with the religious belief of the individual, because more often than not, the individual follows the religion of his/her parent or culture. Nothing magical about that. A loving god is a myth. That any god would consider eternity in hell if you do not believe is not logical on the face of it. The average lifespan of man is about 55 years (my guess). Many infants die at birth. Many babies are born with defects. There are some 2,500 different gods created by man. Which is the right one? c.i.

0 Replies

The preacher came on the Today show to demonstrate how a bicycle can go backwards. He stated that he heard thunder and asked that God acknowledge his prescence (this is the rhetorical baloney usually coming out of a politician's mouth but is there really a difference?) Supposedly this wasn't asking for a sign as only evidoers (sic) ask for signs that God exists or is endorsing the individual's efforts and/or behaviour. The sermon went on for another twenty minutes until someone from outside came in and told them they'd have to evacuate as the church was on fire.
I suggest that God should have set the preacher's pants on fire.

0 Replies

Tartarin wrote:

How about people who are "highly developed, spiritually" but who are avowed atheists or agnostics? What do you do about people who say they aren't religious but who believe, strongly and firmly, in (for example) astrology? Why should logic "win" over belief or faith? How much of the time is logic, like faith, a matter of what we choose to accept? To what extent is religion (or lack of) simply an inherited set of beliefs, relevant to one's time on earth, culture, nationality? And above all, what is it in our culture which has made our form of Christianity so domineering, prideful, and boring?

I mentioned this before, but there is no problem with holding illogical personal beliefs. I don't care if you believe the moon is orange and loves you. However, I don't want people using illogical beliefs as fact in areas that require logic, i.e. science and debate. People tend to make up facts that support their ideologies, or suppress facts that go against them, and that causes logical flaws in science and debate. Be as illogical as you want, unless you're doing things like trying to cure me, making laws concerning me, or having philisopical debate.
Until people acknowledge that their personal beliefs do not follow logic, they will use them as though they are fact in inappropriate places.
ex: prayer in school, bloodletting, the world is flat, creationism...

0 Replies

Lightwizard wrote:

There is more scientific evidence that a God does not exist then there is evidence that a God does exist, at least within the confines of a semantic definition. Aristotle merely described "God" as "The Great Mover." His concept is that whatever a God or God-like entity is, it's not looking down on Earth in any particular consequence and certainly not down on each individual to see if their are good or evil. Leave that to Santa Claus (naughty or nice?)

you better not pout, you better not cry, you better not shout I'm tellin' you why... Santa claus is coming to town... He knows when you are sleeping he know's when you're awake.. he knows when you've been good or bad...So be good for goodness sake!

Iv'e always slightly feared santa claus. He's like some kind of fat, perverted, omnipotent stalker.
(just kidding santa...hee hee... *bites nails*)
I want presents.

0 Replies

Portal Star wrote:

Until people acknowledge that their personal beliefs do not follow logic . . .

No intent to be unkind to your here, Boss, but that is a foolish expectation . . . it ain't never happened, it ain't never gonna happen--the huge issues anyone could raise with you over a definition of "logic" quite apart, better you devote your mental energies to means of living in a world where logic has little or no place in decision-making . . .

0 Replies

Portal, check out this site..'tis a real classic (unfortunately it's not a gag):

http://www.fixedearth.com/

Quote:

The non-moving earth & anti-evolution web page...

Read all about the Copernican and Darwinian Myths (and their many ramifications all the way to Big Bangism!)

0 Replies

So far the thread reminds me of a song title:
Ninety Miles an Hour Down a Dead End Street

0 Replies

Tra-la...

0 Replies

Portal Star wrote:

Dux wrote:
I'm an atheist in search of universal truths, I HAVE NOT GIVEN UP ON THE QUEST, like agnostics, they simply say they don't know to avoid the problem, it's a rather simple position, & like most simple, are wrong, since things are always complicated!

Agnostism is a rather pessimistic way of thinking, since it says you can't know, they are giving up, it's for those who lost the will of find the truth or people who rather live a simple life in a lie.

Religions & the concepts of God are false, since they are all a human creation, the concept of God has always been created with an objective, be it immortality or a simple favor, or just to be in grace of the so called god, just like a person in the court of the king tries to be in grace with his king, the only difference is that their king is false, it doesn't exist. The concept of god is a CONSOLATION for the weak, the hopeless, the ignorant & the tired people.

Those who defend the position of theist expect some kind of reward from their false god, which is rueful.

The concept of god is one of this society's greatest evils.

I don't believe you've been reading the previous posts. We aren't talking about specific religions, or good or evil, or even the perception of truth. We are talking about which view is logically correct: Atheism, Theism, or Agnosticism. I am arguing for agnosticism, as my previous posts indicate. We are not using our personal beliefs, we are using logic. There is a difference, as personal beliefs are not required to be logical. Debates should be.

Agnosticism doesn't say a darn thing about giving up. I don't know where you got that from. Science and logic are all about the quest for knowledge. I'm not asking that we stop seeking out knowledge, just that we don't hold logically false beliefs in debate.

It just like failed actions(of Freud), they don't have to, but some words & the intention behind it or that is supressed tells it, I'm not saying most agnostic have given up on the quest, but many have, they are like the critics, they don't make anyting to serve the quest, but they just critic.

Btw, I second craven, your logic is laughable, however you're new to philosophy, so I don't expect from you a perfect logic. The reason I wrote all those things is because of the attacks toard atheism, btw, how can you prove I didin't have an epiphany about the non-existence of god?, or how can you prove this life ain't a dream?, you can't, but you can prove that the whole concept of god is a human invention, like the language.

Another thing, for someone who demands you're prety quick for making deductions(I did read the whole thread)

0 Replies

edgarblythe wrote:

I see nothing so far but the same old run around. People invent their gods and then expect me to have evidence of it. Ridiculous.

I second that!!!!!, however we an prove how they created their gods & why, psychology & logic help alot! Very Happy

0 Replies

Portal Star wrote:

I'll check out the other thread when I'm not on an e-machine. People, don't buy e-machines.

I agree with the other points you made, especially the one that g-d either exists or doesn't. I know that agnosticism isn't an answer to the argument. However, I'm not saying that agnostic is the logical choice for the rest of eternity no matter what. If some evidence prevented it's self, say in the future, it could be worked with. If you would like, I could say agnostic is the only current logical position. However, I feel that there will continue to be a lack of evidence on either side. If some evidence is prevented, then one side or the other could be logically chosen. It has not, so agnosticism is the only logical choice.

Here's a psychological guess, you're just going through a time in your life where agnostism is the logical, choice, YOU'RE NEW TO PHILOSOPHY, I was once an agnostic, but when I was new to philosophy, & many other people were agnostic a little part of their life because they weren't sure of what path their logic would tell them to go.So later you'll choose a side(probably), there are some who stay agnostic(unless you like a simple life, then you surely stay theist or agnostic). Just a guess usinga little bit of psychology.

0 Replies

fresco wrote:

Craven

The "problem" with theism stems not from its lowly intellectual status but from its high level utility in fulfilling emotional needs.
Marx may have been correct when he called religion the opium of the masses, but it seems that the masses NEED their opium. Addicts don't play the logic game (or they don't play fair). Thats the problem with the original question on this thread.

No argument from me there. My qualm is that demanding logic IMO does not reify. But it's a minor quibble yes.

To dignify talk of gods with an effort to debunk is indeed a way of reifying, i get that much but it's also not a choice. It's forced upon us. But yeah, it'd be nice to be able to just cite burden of proof and have the wide eyed wonders prove their gods but it's also nice to explain to them why the onus should be on them.

anywho, I'm off..

0 Replies

Now there are some good posts!

0 Replies

Atheism has the same logical flaws as religion

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know