Ogling

This has come up a few times. I certainly understand what you're saying, and understand that it would be frustrating, but who is doing this? Where are the generalizations about all men being dogs? Where is the connotation that the men who are sensitive to uncomfortable situations are perverted? If you just mean that some women you have run into have acted that way, my sympathy, and my agreement that you probably don't deserve it. But that keeps coming up here, and want to find out if you think those generalizations have been made in these conversations.

Yes, I am not speaking of occurances on this thread, hopefully all the talk of ogling isn't in reference to happenings on this thread either. :-)

Odd, every one of them bother me. If not for the discomfort they would be giving if it were a real situation for their aid in propagating a stereotype about men.

Coolness. (Hmm, maybe I better not get that webcam... )

I don't get this sentence, sorry:

"If not for the discomfort they would be giving if it were a real situation for their aid in propagating a stereotype about men."

Are you saying that if they were more comfortable (i.e. no photographer) they would be giving aid? Or that... oh, actually, I think I just got it. They all bother you, if not because (if this were a real situation) they would be causing the woman to feel uncomfortable, then because they are helping to propagate a stereotype about men.

I just talked to E.G. -- neither of us really remember the specifics of that conversation, but I think we basically re-enacted it. I said,

"you know that postcard..."
"...that girl in Italy?"
"Right... do you remember we talked about it when we first started dating? What did you say?"
"I dunno... she's hot?"

At any rate, then I explained about the bus, yadda yadda and he remembered and had some interesting things to say. He said imagining a bus full of gay guys doesn't work -- imagine a bathhouse, or a bar, something with a bit more menace. He's been there, done that, (bathhouse in Budapest, trying to take a shower with a guy lounging in the doorway a few feet away, checking him out) and says that's a better analogy. I brought up your homophobia comment, Craven, and he said no, that's not the point... it's not about being scared of gay people qua gay people, it's being scared of one specific guy who has a sexual interest in you that is not reciprocated, and who can do something about that sexual interest, against your will, if you're not careful.

Yup, you got it (meaning of my post). I didn't need to add the "it'd fake" clause but I felt odd saying that the guys were causing her discomfort since I don't think they were.

In any case in situations such as those guys frequently do cause discomfort. Those guys are just asses, they aren't even just being too horny or anything, they are just asses.

The others are just tasteless IMO. Like I said, I think it becomes untoward if it's at all perceptible.

I look at women all the time, but never in a way that they or others would notice. Prolly too discreet but there are a few things I'd hate too come across as, greedy and out-of-control-horny being some of them.

soz, It might be a silly quibble but I think the fear you speak of is central to homophobia. I grew up with very homophobic views (part of religion).

The first gay person I knew scared me. He gave me a hug on my birthday and I felt awkward.

He was the brother of the girl I was living with and for a while we shared a room. I was kinda uncomfortable and found myself staying awake and making sure I slept after him.

The fear was that he'd be sexually interested in me and decide to try to do something about it.

It did not take me very long to realize that the fear was irrational and largely a part of my homophobia. I was about 13 at the time, before i met the guy I was an indiot saying (these are verbatim quotes) that "gay people should be banished to an island" and that (and this is almost painful for me even to type, even more that it was a view I actually expressed) "if they like stuff up the ass I suggest a shotgun".

Anywho, my fears were obviously entirely based on homophobia and meeting that guy radically changed my opinions. I realized that gay people were not the sexual predators I'd envisioned.

Anywho, I'm not saying that E.G.'s fears were bourne of homophobia, just that I think many times men fear homosexuals. i did and it took living with one to get over it.

I think you used homosexuals in your "test" because men simply don't fear women easily. Even if you made them big and powerful men would have a hard time accepting that image.

Your point was to make an example that men could relate to in terms of fear, I think choosing homosexuals was relevant both because it eliminates the wanted factor (i.e. "women ogling me? cool!") and because of the fear factor. I just happen to think a large part of homophobia is the phobia about homos :-).

Anywho, the reference I made about women toying with male homophobia is something that might be exlusive to my experiences. Other women have been puzzled about it.

In my experience unwillingness on my part to engage in sexual activity has wrought the "then you're gay" dismissal, which I understand, it sounds better than "is it because I am unattractive?".

But it also was OFTEN used to try to elicit a "me? gay? no way, brace yourself, I'll show you!".

In Brazil (a Latin culture) it's common for both men and women to poke fun at guys with the gay jokes. Heck, i used to chide my friends in that they ahd 5 track minds, cars, football, sex, and that someone is gay.

Craven,

IMO you obsess a bit about this. -eg. that your looking must be 'imperceptible' or else you might be seen as "out-of-control horny...(to) ...some of them...'

Some women are going to dislike you and think ill of you no matter WHAT you do. If your goal is to please everybody you will always fail and then wrongly blame yourself.

If most women that know you think you're ok, what does it matter that an occasional woman doesn't like you, or forms a mistaken opinion that you are 'out-of-control horny' ?


PS
Oh BTW, If you REALLY ARE 'out-of-control horny', disregard all of the above!

LOL, well it's not just what they think that factors into it. Lots of other reasons. Some petty some not.

Oh I get it...

You catch hell from the girlfriend if she catches YOU ogling!

No no, IMO ogling with a girl falls under different personal guidelines. Mainly ones about treating any significant other nicely and such and how not doing so has bad results.

Some of the reasons.. well here's a petty one.

Ever have people expect certain reactions from you? And as the very notion of reverse psycology would suggest, some of us like to do exactly the opposite. I can't help but get a little childish pleasre in disappointing people by not being predictable.

That's one, there are a lotta dumb reasons I do the things I do.

A little oppositional eh?

Well, go right on being that way!

That's just one darn it! To give a nice complex balance I'd need to list them all <who said too late?> and to do so, you know, would make people think I'm crazy or something.

We ARE interested, though - or I am!

We'd NEVER think you crazy!


Or something.....

I'm jumping in late here, and I haven't yet read any replies that were posted after the first page. If this picture hadn't been staged for the specific purpose of exposing Italy's alleged macho culture, I'd say it mostly tells a story about a naive American: An American who visits a foreign country, neither knows nor cares about the customs and the culture of the place, and then gets pissed off at the male population because she's getting in trouble.

I have a problem with this attitude because Italy, you see, is a real country, not a theme park set up for the pleasure of American tourists. As a real country, it has social customs different from America's, and Americans may not like them. That's too damn bad for the Americans who visit! They're the guests, so it's their job to adapt to the culture, not the other way round. The girl on the picture, like many American tourists I observe where I live, forgot about this basic rule of international travel. (Then again, those who do respect local culture aren't as easily identified as American tourists.)

If I choose to swim in a shark pond, I have a right not to get eaten, but as a practical matter I probably will be. If I, a naive white European, choose to take a walk in a black Detroit slum like the one depicted in Eminem's movie "8 mile", I have a right not to be beaten up by gangs, but as a practical matter I probably will be. In both cases, most people will hold their compassion and say I was asking for trouble and got it.

These people are right -- and the "American girl in Italy" would be no different if this was a real scene.

-- Thomas

Thomas,

I'd say the more American thing to do is what most visitors to a new culture do. Focus disproportionately on the differences. Ogling is not exclusive to any culture but yes the degree to which it is tolerated differs in each culture (and even region within a country, I have seen it vary from city to ciity). In a foreign country elements such as a difference is the acceptable norms and the increased attention given to foreigners everywhere can impress u[pon one's memory more strikingly than the vast similarities. Some of these impressions give a disproportionate perspective, others are spot on (gringo seeing Carnaval and concluding that Brazilians spend a lot of time naked = not really :: gaijin from Sweden thinking that it's comparatively rare to see a natural blonde in Japan = spot on). I think it's understandable that women feel uncomfortable with this in other cultures, the basis of much of the discomfort relates to the inability to know what intentions are. In a foreign culture where behavior is different i don't think it's so much an understanding of the culture that is at fault so much as the trepidation inherent to travel, factors like travelling alone, and the difference in behavior coupled with the lessened ability (due to the difference) of discerning the innocuous behavior from the tell tale signals. But that is hardly even the pertinent question.

But even if all your points are true I have a question: What about the women who are well aware of the culture differences? Is their behavior supposed to chance somehow? Are they supposed to like it?

I have lived in cultures where the ogling is more pronnounced than elsewhere. Within those cultures I have met many women who did not appreciate some of the common behavior.

Did they simply suffer a lack of understanding about their nation's culture or did they have a valid complaint about the social behavior and the way it made them uncomfortable?

No, I wouldn't go that far. What I would say is that they are supposed to take it or leave it. For example, I have a problem with the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia, so I'll refrain from living there and maybe even traveling there. What I definitely won't do is move to Saudi Arabia and then complain about the Saudi Arabians acting like Saudi Arabians. I know the problem is even worse for western women who travel there (or not), but that doesn't change the conclusion in my opinion.


For all I know, it could be both -- certainly the two explanations aren't mutually exclusive. Speaking for myself, one of the benefits of getting older is that you learn how to make people treat you the way you want them to by subtly adjusting your own behavior. There were many instances ten years ago when I felt mistreated by groups of other people. Your mileage may vary, but in my case, I found out that the problem was mostly my own ignorance of social customs, and I now know how I could have avoided the more unpleasant situations without great cost to my individuality. Nevertheless, you don't have to approve with everything about the society you're living in, and trying to change what you don't like is certainly fair game.

Please note, though, that the title of Ruth Orkin's picture is "American Girl in Italy", which suggests that the depicted scene happened because the guys acted like Italians and the girl acted like an American.

-- Thomas

Craven,

I think I've got it!

Your covert ogling is NOT the problem.

Women probably don't initially REALIZE that your eyes are on them. I'll bet that what gets you into trouble is that OTHER covert thing you're doing while pretending not to look......

Solution? keep your hands out of your pockets.

Nice turn of phrase.

Your posts are very articulate Thomas. I think we're going to enjoy having you on A2k.

I'm always looking at anyone who stands out (for all kinds of different reasons), though I usually try to be very discreet about it. I like to draw & suchlike, and, well, unusual / beautiful / funny / ugly / exotic / foreign / etc / etc looks fascinate me..with guys & girls, though prolly more so with girls. Weird thing is, a lot of tourists here get annoyed because they think Japanese are always staring at them & such, but I stare at European/American-looking gaijins (like me) all the time too. Err..I've lived here the majority of my life, and people who are different from the norm around me will always stand out.

Is it my imagination or has Craven's avatar morphed into dlowan's retarded brother?

Is it my imagination or is cavfancier ogleing Craven's avatar?

I look. I used to ogle. Never did catcalls, wolf whistles (except to present company who needed the appreciation)... but I did have a tendancy to 'lock-on' and get slack jawed.

My apologies to any and all who are/were offended.

I ogle Mrs. SealPoet openly. This is a good thing.

Truly I never ->meant<- to be offensive! But according to some girlfriends and female friends, I sure was... damn them genes anyway.