I was never spanked, but one of those "looks" from my Mother was enough to put fear in me!
I don't understand parents trying to talk things out with their kids and "reason" with them. IMO, they are too young to grasp such complex ideas. They need to understand No. And fear what would happen next.
I like your Dad's motto. Must remember that....
eoe wrote:And when you say "gaining control" I hope you mean spanking some hynies because sometimes, that's the only way to "reason" with a headstrong child and show them just who's in charge.
I do disagree with this. Sozlet's been plenty headstrong, never spanked her, never needed to. The look, I use. But it's not backed up with physical force.
I'm mostly anti spanking (I know we all disagree on this) but I was never a mother in practice, while a very close aunt in practice a few times. I simply don't remember if I was spanked before age four, but I somewhat doubt it. My parents were very gentle people, whatever their other good and less good points, and my father wasn't home for most hours of those years when I was 0 - 4. (I was born in late '41). If anything, he was the least likely to hit anyone.
I was spanked once, when I was eight - I had let the doorman let me into our apartment when I was home from school early for some reason. I had no clue what I did wrong at the time, well remember having no clue. My mother slapped me some time later, when I was seventeen. Now I admire her forebearance and wish we could talk.
I agree that it is both tricky to establish, and important to establish, that your child listens if you say NO re running toward the cliff/street/whatever. So I can understand the non-violent pat, though I'm chary of its overuse, very chary. I'm not sure a non violent pat does any good, and agree with other advice re stopping the situation.
But the thread isn't about spanking, not that it shouldn't be mentioned as it does apply re how to control a child - it is about putting the child in the seat in a timely fashion.
I was also reminded of that thread, sozobe. On the other hand, this thread subject isn't a restaurant situation - dadpad's point about the window for the plane taxi line is apropo. And spanking isn't the question, but grabbing.
I do think this thread breaks down to do you just grab the child and seat her, or do you commiserate and attempt to calm - and the pros and cons of all that.
I agree. I'm generally sympathetic to the airlines here, by the way, and am mostly responding to specific statements that were elicted by the situation (like the spanking one, above).
There are still gaps for me, which make me do my accursed "well but..." other-side-of-the-story thing, even though it may well be that the gaps, if filled, make the parents look worse if not better.
Especially, I can see the parents taking the long view. If you take a normally sanguine child (and again, the longest story we've seen here says that she traveled fine one way and is not a tantrum-er in general) and suddenly grab her and forcibly strap her in, you can expect that there will be a long, loud, extremely unpleasant trip for everyone.
This vs. using some techniques to get her in there of her own accord. Were they given any kind of time to use these techniques? I don't know. The "seatbelt" lights don't go on until the plane is ready to go. They weren't necessarily breaking any rules until the plane was ready to go -- and how long was it between when the plane was ready to go and when they were kicked off?
Anyway, that's the contrarian view, but as others have said I do see a distinct possibility that they were being too passive about it, and inconveniencing a whole lot of people while doing so.
caribou wrote:I was never spanked, but one of those "looks" from my Mother was enough to put fear in me!
I know that look!
Physical punishment is for life threatening situations only. It has no effect on under 5's anyway.
were going in 5 minutes......... we are going in 1 minute......... get in the car junior.............. get in the car NOW mister! (the look).........pick child up, put in car, ignore any screaming flailing. Drive away.
Simple.
Oh and blame the deed not the do-er. Your hands are playing with matches your hands get smacked.
I think that is the only time I ever smacked my daughter, i dont ever remember smacking my son. I just made them do the things they needed to do, after fair warning.
dadpad wrote:Physical punishment is for life threatening situations only. It has no effect on under 5's anyway.
The heck it doesn't. My mother used to spank our hands if we touched things we weren't supposed to touch and by the time I was five, I could look at an object of interest all day long and never lay my hand on it. Cause and effect is an early lesson learned. At least it used to be. I find alot of young people today don't have a clue about that, or about consequences and repercussions.
What knocks me out is the way little kids hit their parents these days. This is a new thing. I'd never heard of it or seen it before maybe ten years ago. Now, I see kids punching the mothers in the grocery store rather frequently. Man, I just can't even imagine what my punishment would have been if I'd socked my mother. Yes I can. She would've socked me right back.
Soz mentioned -
This vs. using some techniques to get her in there of her own accord. Were they given any kind of time to use these techniques? I don't know. The "seatbelt" lights don't go on until the plane is ready to go. They weren't necessarily breaking any rules until the plane was ready to go -- and how long was it between when the plane was ready to go and when they were kicked off?
I don't think there is room, much of the time if not all of the time, for techniques to cajole a child into the seat. Hey, just do it, then cajole. This is a plane, passengers, flight times, crew, yadda yadda. money, sometimes - though probably not this time, but what do you know? - security.
Plane crews have a rigamarole, and when they do that reciting of rules stuff, everyone is supposed to be tucked in, even the most inebrieated sot.
There isn't room for technique in handling, by much, it is not your living room - though there are many thousands of famous incidents for things going awry.
I'll admit to a bias, in having three friends who were flight attendents, two on Pan AM/then, later UNITED, and another with another airline. One friend dealt with many drunks back and forth to Narita (Tokyo adjacent)from LA. She was eventually disabled from bouncing her head on the ceiling in some storm and is loathe to fly since. I still could get buddy passes, I suppose, as she can still offer them, but don't want to get into that, much as I crave travel.
Not that babies are = to drunks, but that the plane MUST be secured in a timely way.
Unless they are waiting for some imprortant person, which is how I missed a connection, once upon a time.
Linkat wrote:"The flight was already delayed 15 minutes" - sounds like it was delayed for other reasons. Also, if it was the cause of the child then wouldn't they say, the airline was already delayed 15 minutes because of the child or they already allowed the parents 15 minutes to calm the child?
I'm not a parent, so could be wrong. But my memory as a fairly frequent flyer tells me that parents are usually among the first people who get to board a plane -- right along with people in wheelchairs, pregnant women in the higher months, and first class passengers. I strongly suspect those parents did have 15 minutes to console their daughter, whether she caused the delay or not.
sozobe wrote:I agree. I'm generally sympathetic to the airlines here, by the way, and am mostly responding to specific statements that were elicted by the situation (like the spanking one, above).
There are still gaps for me, which make me do my accursed "well but..." other-side-of-the-story thing, even though it may well be that the gaps, if filled, make the parents look worse if not better.
Especially, I can see the parents taking the long view. If you take a normally sanguine child (and again, the longest story we've seen here says that she traveled fine one way and is not a tantrum-er in general) and suddenly grab her and forcibly strap her in, you can expect that there will be a long, loud, extremely unpleasant trip for everyone.
This vs. using some techniques to get her in there of her own accord. Were they given any kind of time to use these techniques? I don't know. The "seatbelt" lights don't go on until the plane is ready to go. They weren't necessarily breaking any rules until the plane was ready to go -- and how long was it between when the plane was ready to go and when they were kicked off?
Anyway, that's the contrarian view, but as others have said I do see a distinct possibility that they were being too passive about it, and inconveniencing a whole lot of people while doing so.
I do agree with you - the parents may have been trying to settle her down so she wouldn't be screaming the entire flight. It would be better for quiet purposes if they could get her in her seat on her own accord and perhaps that is what they were trying to do - we will probably never know for sure.
I do believe though that the fasten seatbelts are on the moment you enter the plane. I know I point to it to my children when boarding and explain once we get seated we cannot get up again or unbuckle until that light is off. So I have noticed that the seatbelt light is on when you board.
eoe wrote:dadpad wrote:Physical punishment is for life threatening situations only. It has no effect on under 5's anyway.
The heck it doesn't. My mother used to spank our hands if we touched things we weren't supposed to touch and by the time I was five, I could look at an object of interest all day long and never lay my hand on it. Cause and effect is an early lesson learned. At least it used to be. I find alot of young people today don't have a clue about that, or about consequences and repercussions.
What knocks me out is the way little kids hit their parents these days. This is a new thing. I'd never heard of it or seen it before maybe ten years ago. Now, I see kids punching the mothers in the grocery store rather frequently. Man, I just can't even imagine what my punishment would have been if I'd socked my mother. Yes I can. She would've socked me right back.
My four year started this recently - hitting me when she gets angry. When she does this I tell it you do not hit, pick her up and put her on her bed for 10 minutes. It doesn't happen often and it just started recently - hopefully it is short lived. My older daughter knows better.
ossobuco wrote:Soz mentioned -
This vs. using some techniques to get her in there of her own accord. Were they given any kind of time to use these techniques? I don't know. The "seatbelt" lights don't go on until the plane is ready to go. They weren't necessarily breaking any rules until the plane was ready to go -- and how long was it between when the plane was ready to go and when they were kicked off?
I don't think there is room, much of the time if not all of the time, for techniques to cajole a child into the seat. Hey, just do it, then cajole. This is a plane, passengers, flight times, crew, yadda yadda. money, sometimes - though probably not this time, but what do you know? - security.
Plane crews have a rigamarole, and when they do that reciting of rules stuff, everyone is supposed to be tucked in, even the most inebrieated sot.
There isn't room for technique in handling, by much, it is not your living room - though there are many thousands of famous incidents for things going awry.
I'll admit to a bias, in having three friends who were flight attendents, two on Pan AM/then, later UNITED, and another with another airline. One friend dealt with many drunks back and forth to Narita (Tokyo adjacent)from LA. She was eventually disabled from bouncing her head on the ceiling in some storm and is loathe to fly since. I still could get buddy passes, I suppose, as she can still offer them, but don't want to get into that, much as I crave travel.
Maybe the parents are not frequent flyers so they are not knowledgeable to all the rules and tight deadlines and so forth. I know often working in a particular field for years you can be de-sensitized to others not experienced in this field. I had a doctor tell me once with no emotion that I scratched my cornea. It sounded awful to me - I said will this get better - response it is the fastest healing part of body - you will be fine. What is everyday to one person - is brand new frightening, confusing to another.
Thomas wrote:Linkat wrote:"The flight was already delayed 15 minutes" - sounds like it was delayed for other reasons. Also, if it was the cause of the child then wouldn't they say, the airline was already delayed 15 minutes because of the child or they already allowed the parents 15 minutes to calm the child?
I'm not a parent, so could be wrong. But my memory as a fairly frequent flyer tells me that parents are usually among the first people who get to board a plane -- right along with people in wheelchairs, pregnant women in the higher months, and first class passengers. I strongly suspect those parents did have 15 minutes to console their daughter, whether she caused the delay or not.
I have flown frequently with small children and now it is rare to do this. Only on one flight has this ever happened to me. It doesn't matter if you have young children or not you board with the pack now.
Phoenix32890 wrote:Thomas- No, you are not wrong. That is what is known as "preboarding". Those parents had plenty of time to calm the child before takeoff.
Actually, anyone can preboard if they feel that they need the extra time. (The airlines don't check the extent of a women's pregnancy 
) Since I have reached a certain point in my life, and sometimes need help putting the carry-ons in the overhead bins, I have begun to preboard.
Wish I knew this - I flew when I was obviously pregnant several times and was never offered the opportunity for pre-boarding.
Linkat wrote:
I have flown frequently with small children and now it is rare to do this. Only on one flight has this ever happened to me. It doesn't matter if you have young children or not you board with the pack now.
We have pre-boarded on all the ~22 flights we have taken with our 18-mo. old - domestic and international. The extra few minutes we get to settle all the paraphernelia we travel with AND baby are very, very useful. As to how accommodating air staff is during the journey - that's another matter. As a rule, each time we've made an international trip, we've had good to excellent service/ help from the staff. (In fact, I was so impressed with Singapore Airlines that I actually wrote them a complimentary note when we returned home.) Domestic has been a very mixed bag. Ranging from the very helpful to the downright annoyed: "how dare you inconvenience me by traveling with a baby on my shift" (that was the attitude, not actual words).
We have been offered pre-boarding only when one of my kids was still a baby, and only about 50% of that time. After about age 2, it became inconvenient to preboard. You get on, you get settled, then the kids sit there with nothing to do until takeoff, and you get whacked in the head by every passerby's luggage. If we could afford to fly business or first class, I'm sure that would be another matter.
Linkat wrote:I have flown frequently with small children and now it is rare to do this. Only on one flight has this ever happened to me. It doesn't matter if you have young children or not you board with the pack now.
I haven't been on a flight in the last decade that did not offer pre-boarding.
I fly from Boston and Providence at least 3 times a year - usually on United, Jet Blue or Southwest. Although they have Pre-Boarding it is always announced for those that are First Class passenagers. Only Southwest twice announced it for those with small children. And believe me I listen for it.
I travel JetBlue.................and I have not seen hide nor hair of a first class seat. They are ALL coach seats. They always announce preboarding by saying that it is for small children, people in wheelchairs, and anyone else who needs a little extra help or time in boarding.
Yup - JetBlue always has pre-boarding - at least when you're going in NYC or Buffalo. Southwest has had it for all flights I've been on - all levels.
Mebbe not offering it is a MA specialty?
