4
   

CHIRAC, SARKOZY The French Right prepares for presidentials

 
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 02:08 pm
nimh wrote:
Yep, that would be the correct word. Majority = over 50%; a score the SVP came nowhere close to.


Ref. your "over 50%" statement; that's an "absolute majority" in US usage. Simple majority or plurality is correct in the Swiss election case.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 02:31 pm
High Seas wrote:
nimh wrote:
Yep, that would be the correct word. Majority = over 50%; a score the SVP came nowhere close to.


Ref. your "over 50%" statement; that's an "absolute majority" in US usage. Simple majority or plurality is correct in the Swiss election case.


Hmm. Since you here refer again to the "Swiss election case" ... you are wrong.

nimh used the correct words - since it's not about US usage but how the Swiss election system works.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 06:17 pm
Meanwhile, in other news. The French transit strike made news here for a few days. The wonks in the U.S. opine that Sarkozy better win this. If he doesn't he will become a "lame duck." In the early days (when it still made our news) the French public seemed to be supporting him, feeling that the unions, with very early retirement ages, were bilking the system while so many are under-employed.
Tonight comes news of a transit strike in Germany. I hear that the public sentiment there is tending towards the unions.
Any clarification would be appreciated. -johnboy-
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 06:22 pm
dittoing johnboy...
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 07:31 pm
Actually, as I understand it, the German strike does not impact commuters as much as it affects the transport of materials and finished goods to and from factories. There is a difference in the public's eye.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 12:25 am
I really can't say anything about "the public" feeling in Germany.

That certainly is divided: government, but especially economy nad trade don't support that strike.
The strike does impact all: only between (depending on regions) 30 and 50% of trains are running, local communter trains in some regions only any two hours enstead of 20 or 30 minutes.
Many long distance trains don't run at all.

That will become worse when the now doing the job civil servants and unorganised have to go on breaks due to labor law.


I've always dobe, especially, since the railway company acts in my opinion like those 'steel barons' of 19th century did.



In France, I've always siad that the president (and the government) will get difficulties when they try to enforce what they said.

If Sarkozy fails, however, he will be seen everywhere as just another Chirac. Thus the key to the strike is not Sarkozy but the unions, who have to follow their members or lose them to their more radical rivals.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 04:59 pm
Thanks, Walter. As I noted, the U.S. press is no longer covering this. I rely on yall and the BBC.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 04:06 am
Nothing really to add to this Reuters report - passenger trains are nearly running normal (until Tuesday?), but it will take one week until the freight trains could be on normal schedule.

Quote:
BERLIN (Reuters) - German train drivers returned to work early on Saturday, ending the country's biggest rail strike, but the misery is far from over for commuters as the union has threatened more action next week.

The 62-hour strike over pay hit both freight and commuter services and raised fears about the impact on Europe's biggest economy.

Some companies, including car maker Audi, were forced to cancel shifts due to parts shortages and shipping containers piled up in Hamburg, Germany's largest port.

The wage dispute between the GDL train drivers' union and rail operator Deutsche Bahn has dragged on since March.

The two sides are not talking and there is little sign that either side is about to budge.

GDL deputy head Claus Weselsky on Friday threatened further strikes next week if Deutsche Bahn failed to come up with a new offer and talk is rife the dispute could run over Christmas.

Deutsche Bahn has said it will make no new offer.
[...]
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 04:06 am
And the latest from France (by the German Press Agency in English :wink: )

Quote:
Nov 17, 2007, 9:42 GMT

Paris - French rail service and public transportation in the greater Paris area were severely disrupted Saturday by a strike as trade unions continued to protest against proposed government reforms.

About one of five scheduled metro trains were operating as the strike entered its fourth day with just 40 per cent of buses and trams operating, according to the RATP transit service.

The national railway network SNCF said that about one third of the scheduled high-speed TGV trains were running.

As a result of the strike, traffic was piling up around Paris.

Cross-border railway services were also disrupted.

The strike, the second in four weeks, was called to protest the government's plans to end certain pension privileges for some 500,000 workers in the railway and energy sectors.

Despite agreeing in principle to negotiations, fronts have hardened between the government and the unions.

Labour Minister Xavier Bertrand has said no negotiations would be held until unions called for an end to the job action.

However, unions have demanded that Bertrand call a meeting 'without preconditions' to define the framework of negotiations.

© 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 01:46 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
High Seas wrote:
nimh wrote:
Yep, that would be the correct word. Majority = over 50%; a score the SVP came nowhere close to.


Ref. your "over 50%" statement; that's an "absolute majority" in US usage. Simple majority or plurality is correct in the Swiss election case.


Hmm. Since you here refer again to the "Swiss election case" ... you are wrong.

nimh used the correct words - since it's not about US usage but how the Swiss election system works.


the matter is too absurd to bear further discussion, Walter, but your statement above makes no sense - regardless of applicable jurisdiction Smile
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 05:23 pm
High Seas wrote:
the matter is too absurd to bear further discussion, Walter, but your statement above makes no sense - regardless of applicable jurisdiction Smile

Something is absurd allright..

    [b]ma·jor·i·ty [/b]/məˈdʒɔrɪti, -ˈdʒɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-jawr-i-tee, -jor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation -noun, plural -ties. 1. the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total (opposed to minority): the majority of the population. 2. a number of voters or votes, jurors, or others in agreement, constituting more than half of the total number. 3. the amount by which the greater number, as of votes, surpasses the remainder (distinguished from plurality). 4. the party or faction with the majority vote: The Democratic party is the majority.
Seems pretty clear what the more commonplace usage of "majority" (as opposed to "plurality") is, in political contexts..
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 12:47 pm
nimh wrote:
High Seas wrote:
the matter is too absurd to bear further discussion, Walter, but your statement above makes no sense - regardless of applicable jurisdiction Smile

Something is absurd allright..

..


Indeed, you got that right, nimh!

Referring to my own post on previous page, repeated for ease of reference >>


High Seas wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
High Seas wrote:
nimh wrote:
Yep, that would be the correct word. Majority = over 50%; a score the SVP came nowhere close to.


Ref. your "over 50%" statement; that's an "absolute majority" in US usage. Simple majority or plurality is correct in the Swiss election case.


Hmm. Since you here refer again to the "Swiss election case" ... you are wrong.

nimh used the correct words - since it's not about US usage but how the Swiss election system works.


the matter is too absurd to bear further discussion, Walter, but your statement above makes no sense - regardless of applicable jurisdiction Smile


>> look up "absolute majority" (50% and higher) and "US usage" (US linguistic usage, i.e. what you would expect to find in a US-based website).

US usage has nothing to do with psephology, whether in the US, in Switzerland, or anywhere else.

It's hard to believe that neither you nor Walter are familiar with these commonplace expressions - but, as the greatest disciple of Kant notes, remarking on difficulties encountered in explaining Kantian thought: "...man verstand nicht und wurde aergerlich; oder man verstand nicht und merkte doch, dort sei das fuer all unser gegenwaertig moegliches Philosophieren Entscheidende zu verstehen; oder man verstand, als ob man verstehe, und verbaute durch seine Interpretation noch den Zugang zum Fusssteig"

Not to imply anybody here is Kant, but - aergerlich? Why not ask, if you don't understand?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 12:05 pm
To continue the linguistic discussion... Cool

High Seas wrote:
look up "absolute majority" (50% and higher) and "US usage" (US linguistic usage, i.e. what you would expect to find in a US-based website).

I realise that an "absolute majority" refers to over 50%, specifically - in any country. The point is rather that the term "majority" usually and primarily also refers to having over 50% (of seats, votes, etc) at hand - as opposed to "plurality", which designates a lead in votes or seats that doesn't reach 50%.

Now I realise that you're now arguing that this is not true in US usage - but the dictionary definition I quoted does not seem to back you up on this.

Of course, since you have a two-party system, the difference is hardly ever relevant in the US; whichever way the vote turns out (unless it's a tie, of course), either one or the other candidate will have a "majority", rather than a plurality, of seats in Congress or any other legislative body. So I can see how the word "plurality" is hardly ever used, and Americans would naturally just use the word they know and generally use, "majority", to describe any election victory.

That doesn't, however, make ït correct. That's why it might be useful to take to heart a reminder that the use of the term to describe an election victory is rarely ever correct in the context of multi-party systems like Switzerland's. Getting less than a third of the parliamentary seats does not make for a "majority", hence your typical newspaper report sentence that "the party won the elections, but does not have a majority.

Don't take my word for it, consider the use in these random newspaper articles - which include sources like BBC News and Fox News:

  • "another poll by Allensbach Institute showed that Merkel 's bloc will win 49.5 percent, and still lacks a majority to win the elections"

  • "The DPP is now the largest party, but lacks a majority"

  • "These scenarios were in turn rejected by Civic Democratic Party leader Mirek Topolanek, whose party won the elections but lacks a majority"

  • "The Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) to which the president, Chen Shui-bian, belongs is the largest party in the legislature, but it lacks a majority"

  • "Oscar Berger earns 54 percent of the vote in the runoff for president. However, Berger lacks a majority in Congress and may be forced to rely on [..] Portillo, leader of the second-largest party"

  • "If the winning candidate lacks a majority of votes, he and the second-place finisher would go against each other in a March runoff."

Well, etc.

High Seas wrote:
Not to imply anybody here is Kant, but - aergerlich? Why not ask, if you don't understand?

Right back atcha. Cool
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2007 03:42 pm
nimh wrote:
................I realise that an "absolute majority" refers to over 50%, specifically - in any country. The point is rather that the term "majority" usually and primarily also refers to having over 50% (of seats, votes, etc) at hand - as opposed to "plurality", which designates a lead in votes or seats that doesn't reach 50%.

Now I realise that you're now arguing that this is not true in US usage - but the dictionary definition I quoted does not seem to back you up on this.

.......
Quote:


Nimh - by successive iterations, we seem to be converging in our opinions! Other dictionaries give different definitions, as in e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_majority
but essentially we're agreed. Glad you like Kant, btw, and have a happy Thanksgiving.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 01:26 am
Quote:
Comment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sarko v the gréviculture

The president is trying to divide the strikers, and desperate to keep the French people on side

Agnès Poirier
Thursday November 22, 2007
The Guardian

The French are not amused. Trade unions and the government know they'd better speed up negotiations and find an agreement on the reform of special pension schemes or France will soon reach boiling point. On day nine of transport strikes, the streets are simmering with discontent. Yesterday's announcement that Jacques Chirac is being questioned about l'affaire of the Paris town hall's fictitious jobs has done little to soothe the highly volatile national temper.

This is a tale of two Frances. The first is made up of 1 million beneficiaries of special pension schemes defending their "acquired rights" by going on strike, and of 5.2 million civil servants staging walk-outs over their decreasing "purchasing power" and against Nicolas Sarkozy's plans for substantial job cuts in the public sector. However civil servants have taken great care to detach themselves from transport workers, whose fight is getting less and less support from the public. Here is the key to the crisis: as long as these two social movements don't unite into one massive strike, Sarkozy still has some leverage to carry out the reforms for which he was elected. And he knows it. Hence his attempt at assuaging the "deserving" civil servants while talking tough to "the transport strikers who are holding the French hostage".

The other France is the small majority of the public Sarkozy has convinced that the economy can no longer sustain those "extravagant" 128 different special schemes allowing, for instance, railway workers to retire at 50 or ballet dancers to gracefully leave the stage at 42. The fact that some of these special schemes date back to Louis XIV provides Sarkozy with the seeming proof of their "archaism" - a motto carefully relayed by the media owned by the president's friends.

As a result, few in the opposition have dared raise their voice against the new consensus to debate the nature of the reforms Sarkozy wishes to implement. The silence of a moribund Socialist party, in disarray since Ségolène Royal's defeat in the presidential elections, has left it to the small radical parties on the left to try to explain that the special pension schemes of railway workers offer a small privilege compared with the status of MPs, who after five years in parliament are entitled to a €1,600 (£1,100) monthly pension. It has been left to the head of the Revolutionary Communist League, Olivier Besancenot, to explain that scrapping the special pension schemes will save taxpayers only €400m. A drop in the €1,200bn public debt ocean.

Reforming a country like France is an art. Sarkozy may be no artist but he is certainly a smooth communicator. His next battle won't be with trade unions but with the public: trying to get a large majority on his side against the strikers. To win them over, he has set his formidable spin machine in motion. He is trying to convince the public that France must break with its endemic gréviculture, a culture of protesting that has become archaic and pathetic, a disease that is the real culprit of France's bad financial results in the world economy.

François Doutriaux, an employment law expert and historian, recently compared 18 western countries and their records of strikes since 1970. Italy tops the charts, with Britain third (until 1990) and France 11th. The most illuminating fact is that, between 1970 and 1990, private-sector workers led the strikes while state workers shied away from the streets. The trend has been reversed since 1990, with a majority of strikers coming from the public sector. According to Doutriaux, the insecurity of jobs in the private sector has silenced its workers.

As Besancenot said yesterday: railworkers are just Sarkozy's aperitif, then he'll take on the rest of the workforce as his main course. Unless the French have him for breakfast first.

agnespoirier.com
Source
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 04:41 pm
As I understand it, most of the transit workers went back to work. One union did not.
But now French university students have taken to the streets. What is that all about?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2007 12:52 am
In theory, four of the eight unions from the SNCF, representing three quarters of its workers, had not officially called off the strike.

But the number of those not working had dropped to 14.5 per cent at SNCF and just 11.7 per cent at RATP, the metro and bus network.

And not just the students (they're actually the minority) - from students angry at education reforms to disgruntled cigarette vendors against a smoking ban many more demonstrating against the government and Sarlozy's reform plans. on the streets. (For instance hundreds of thousands of civil servants marched on Tuesday against planned job cuts and the rising cost of living.)
0 Replies
 
Radical Edward
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Nov, 2007 05:02 pm
Some of the French students, searchers and teachers have started an "active strike" about 2 weeks ago to protest against the "Pécresse" law. This law (roughly) is a reform of the french universities. It opens the funds of the universities to private firms, which would mean, as many fear, an increase of the university ffees and a reinforcement of the inequalities between the departments (the "scientific" departments would see their budget rise, while the art, language or lliteraturedepartments would sink). Moreover, the law gives more power to the directors of the universities (and, of course, less to the students, teachers and unions).
In most of the universities that are in strike, the classes are suspended, but other solutions are proposed, such as debates, discussions of the law, "civil disobedience courses", etc. That's what they call an "active strike".
We still don't know what's going to be decided for next monday. Wait and see...

Oh! And the SNCF and RATP have not completely gotten back to work. The unions and the government are nnegotiating and if they don't come to an agreement in a month, they'll strike again.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Nov, 2007 02:22 pm
Thank you, Radical Edward, for the clarification and welcome to this thread. As I mentioned the U.S. media isn't very good at following something like this. Obviously there are places I can go to find out, but I just "got back" (figuratively) from the elections in Australia. So many things for a political junkie to keep up with!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:52 am
In the New York Review of Books (Volume 54, Number 19 · December 6, 2007): Who Is Sarkozy?
0 Replies
 
 

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