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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 07:44 pm
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

I don't intend to sound mean, but you are either stupid or completely misinformed. A virus cannot be cured. With out current technology, it is impossible. We can't even cure a common cold...

Actually... I'm not even going to get into this argument. You are so far behind the learning curve on this that it would take me forever to get you to understand.



And isn't Polio a virus. We created a vaccine to cure that malady. I hope you're your broad minded enough to not be arguing semantics between a cure and a vaccine.


A vaccine doesn't cure, it prevents.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 07:45 pm
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

no... your point is invalid. cancer is an infinitely more difficult issue to resolve. all the money in the world might not cure it in the next 100 years.


My point (god your dense) is that parma has more of an interest in creating TREATMENTS for diseases then they do for creating CURES.


Dense as I may be, your spelling is lacking. You are one of those people who assumes that things are conspiracies if they don't happent he way you want. Barring bacterial infections, there are exceptionally few illnesses that can be "cured." They are only cured BY treatments. There is no way to undo cell death. If you can't understand that, you are far more dense than I.


And why are you throwing out bacteria? Can't there be cures/vaccines there too? Do they not fit in the nice bubble you're trying to create for your argument here?


Once again, demonstrations your lack of understanding. A vaccine ONLY works to prevent a virus - not a bacteria. Bacteria are living organisms that we CAN (usually) kill. Even that isn't always guaranteed.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 07:46 pm
maporsche wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

I don't intend to sound mean, but you are either stupid or completely misinformed. A virus cannot be cured. With out current technology, it is impossible. We can't even cure a common cold...

Actually... I'm not even going to get into this argument. You are so far behind the learning curve on this that it would take me forever to get you to understand.



And isn't Polio a virus. We created a vaccine to cure that malady. I hope you're your broad minded enough to not be arguing semantics between a cure and a vaccine.


And smallpox.


And again... a virus... we can prevent it, not cure it.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:03 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

I don't intend to sound mean, but you are either stupid or completely misinformed. A virus cannot be cured. With out current technology, it is impossible. We can't even cure a common cold...

Actually... I'm not even going to get into this argument. You are so far behind the learning curve on this that it would take me forever to get you to understand.



And isn't Polio a virus. We created a vaccine to cure that malady. I hope you're your broad minded enough to not be arguing semantics between a cure and a vaccine.


And smallpox.


And again... a virus... we can prevent it, not cure it.



Dense as a neutron star.

Fine, to rephrase my question.

What would you say is the most profitable business model A)to treat a disease caused by a virus, such as AIDS for life (as we have today, see Magic Johnson), or B) to create a vaccine that would need to be administered say 1 time that would prevent someone from getting AIDS, eventually eradicating the disease ala smallpox and polio.

What business plan is more profitable (the primary objective for Pharma) for Pharma? Just answer A or B.

Do you see how this is really the same question, and if you weren't so busy trying to weasel out of answering the question that you're arguing the smallest details of my question in a not so subtle attempts at avoidence.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:07 pm
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

I don't intend to sound mean, but you are either stupid or completely misinformed. A virus cannot be cured. With out current technology, it is impossible. We can't even cure a common cold...

Actually... I'm not even going to get into this argument. You are so far behind the learning curve on this that it would take me forever to get you to understand.



And isn't Polio a virus. We created a vaccine to cure that malady. I hope you're your broad minded enough to not be arguing semantics between a cure and a vaccine.


And smallpox.


And again... a virus... we can prevent it, not cure it.



Dense as a neutron star.

Fine, to rephrase my question.

Would you agree that for a business the most profitable model would be to treat a disease caused by a virus, such as AIDS for life (as we have today, see Magic Johnson), or to create a vaccine that would need to be administered say 1 time that would prevent someone from getting AIDS, eventually eradicating the disease ala smallpox and polio.


There are vaccines in the work. There have already been human trials. The problem is the ethics of this. How do we test the vaccine? We have to give it to people and then hope they get infected. That's not something many people are rushing to do. Though, there have been people that volunteered to be infected with HIV in order to test the vaccine.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:12 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

no... your point is invalid. cancer is an infinitely more difficult issue to resolve. all the money in the world might not cure it in the next 100 years.


My point (god your dense) is that parma has more of an interest in creating TREATMENTS for diseases then they do for creating CURES.


Dense as I may be, your spelling is lacking. You are one of those people who assumes that things are conspiracies if they don't happent he way you want. Barring bacterial infections, there are exceptionally few illnesses that can be "cured." They are only cured BY treatments. There is no way to undo cell death. If you can't understand that, you are far more dense than I.


And why are you throwing out bacteria? Can't there be cures/vaccines there too? Do they not fit in the nice bubble you're trying to create for your argument here?


Once again, demonstrations your lack of understanding. A vaccine ONLY works to prevent a virus - not a bacteria. Bacteria are living organisms that we CAN (usually) kill. Even that isn't always guaranteed.



REALLY?

What about the DPT vaccine?

Diphtheria
Tetanus
Pertussis


Lack of understanding huh?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:14 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

I don't intend to sound mean, but you are either stupid or completely misinformed. A virus cannot be cured. With out current technology, it is impossible. We can't even cure a common cold...

Actually... I'm not even going to get into this argument. You are so far behind the learning curve on this that it would take me forever to get you to understand.



And isn't Polio a virus. We created a vaccine to cure that malady. I hope you're your broad minded enough to not be arguing semantics between a cure and a vaccine.


And smallpox.


And again... a virus... we can prevent it, not cure it.



Dense as a neutron star.

Fine, to rephrase my question.

Would you agree that for a business the most profitable model would be to treat a disease caused by a virus, such as AIDS for life (as we have today, see Magic Johnson), or to create a vaccine that would need to be administered say 1 time that would prevent someone from getting AIDS, eventually eradicating the disease ala smallpox and polio.


There are vaccines in the work. There have already been human trials. The problem is the ethics of this. How do we test the vaccine? We have to give it to people and then hope they get infected. That's not something many people are rushing to do. Though, there have been people that volunteered to be infected with HIV in order to test the vaccine.


Please answer my question.


What is more profitable for the PHARMA companies?
What are the PHARMA companies motivations?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:19 pm
And check out who may be funding AIDS research.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=who+is+funding+AIDS+vaccine+research


The Worlds Governments....not Pfizer, Merck, etc....or at least they're not letting anyone know about it. I even browsed Merck's website, hoping to find out some info on AIDS research....nothing there.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:33 pm
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:

no... your point is invalid. cancer is an infinitely more difficult issue to resolve. all the money in the world might not cure it in the next 100 years.


My point (god your dense) is that parma has more of an interest in creating TREATMENTS for diseases then they do for creating CURES.


Dense as I may be, your spelling is lacking. You are one of those people who assumes that things are conspiracies if they don't happent he way you want. Barring bacterial infections, there are exceptionally few illnesses that can be "cured." They are only cured BY treatments. There is no way to undo cell death. If you can't understand that, you are far more dense than I.


And why are you throwing out bacteria? Can't there be cures/vaccines there too? Do they not fit in the nice bubble you're trying to create for your argument here?


Once again, demonstrations your lack of understanding. A vaccine ONLY works to prevent a virus - not a bacteria. Bacteria are living organisms that we CAN (usually) kill. Even that isn't always guaranteed.



REALLY?

What about the DPT vaccine?

Diphtheria
Tetanus
Pertussis


Lack of understanding huh?


really what? what about it?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:35 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:

REALLY?

What about the DPT vaccine?

Diphtheria
Tetanus
Pertussis


Lack of understanding huh?


really what? what about it?



With all your experience I would have thought you'd know, or at least know how to look it up.

DPT is a vaccine for the bacterial diseases Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis. Here I've done the leg-work for you.

http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/go/index.php/120/bacterial-vaccines/
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:42 pm
maporsche wrote:
And check out who may be funding AIDS research.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=who+is+funding+AIDS+vaccine+research


The Worlds Governments....not Pfizer, Merck, etc....or at least they're not letting anyone know about it. I even browsed Merck's website, hoping to find out some info on AIDS research....nothing there.


Actually, smart guy, Merck IS funding a vaccine project. It went into phase II trials on december 13, 2004. It was co-funded by the NIH. Their vaccine was based on a weakened adenovirus with the subtype B HIV genes implanted.

Here's info on the Glaxo vaccine: http://www.hvtn.org/media/press_releases.sht?id=19
http://www.thebody.com/content/art8353.html

Happy reading.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:48 pm
OH, and you might not find anything searching for and "AIDS vaccine" since AIDS is not a virus, but a condition. HIV is the virus name.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 08:53 pm
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:

REALLY?

What about the DPT vaccine?

Diphtheria
Tetanus
Pertussis


Lack of understanding huh?


really what? what about it?



With all your experience I would have thought you'd know, or at least know how to look it up.

DPT is a vaccine for the bacterial diseases Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis. Here I've done the leg-work for you.

http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/go/index.php/120/bacterial-vaccines/


Fine, I'm completely wrong. A vaccine can prevent an illness caused by a bacteria. Still, a vaccine doesn't CURE anything. Too bad you didn't do as much leg work looking for info on the HIV vaccines...
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 09:36 pm
While it's not rare to see a thread so loaded with parsing semi-colons against colons, it really quite boring.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 10:27 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
this is a free market society. the incentive of the insurance company to treat patients well is that if they don't, the customer can always find another provider.


Correct. There's a lot of competition between the 300 health insurance companies which take part in the mandatory universal health care system.
(Which led to the fact that about 2.000 smaller companies couldn't stand this and became incorparet in bigger companies during the last couple of years.)


I find this to be a very strange concept - a government enforced mandate for all people (or citizens, or residents) to purchase health insurance from one of a list of presumably government-approved providers.

This, of course gives the approved insurers both a guaranteed market and a powerful inducement to lobby government for favorable (to them) terms & conditions.

In addition it could lead to the organization of medical providers into competing service groups (such as with current HMOs). This of course creates significant limitations on the ability of individuals to freely choose their own medical providers - even if they are willing to pay for them themselves.

Thirdly, it adds yet another layer of administrative cost and profit to the delivery of medical care. The only social benefit of this layer of added cost is the illusion of the distribution of risk in an insurance scheme. In fact in the information age there is virtually no such thing as pooled risk, given the ability of insurers to profile their customers and accurately forecast the probable cost of new applicants based on readily obtainable information. Indeed the insurance premiums that corporations pay today are based on the nearly real time claims submitted by their employees, plus a surcharge for administration and profit.

It also requires the government to subsidize the insurance coverage of individuals whose earnings might not enable them to pay the cost of insurance - as determined in some political/bureaucratic process. This, of course, opens the door to widespread manipulation by people with large assets, but low incomes, and, more significantly, by various lobbying groups seeking to benefit from yet another unbounded government "entitlement".

It reduces medical care to a commodity with very little left of the market incentives for buyer and seller which otherwise would fit supply and cost to demand, and automatically provide meaningful feedback with respect to customer satisfaction.(Some here will likely counter that in this or that country citizens have broad latitude in choosing their providers. However, I suspect the role of their insurers in capping fees as a means of rationing service will go unacknowledged.)

Finally it opens the door to government management (or at least limitation) of virtually all aspects of medical care from the training of providers to research for new drugs and treatments. The dead hand of government bureaucracy is a well-established method of producing universal mediocrity and shortage.

There are no examples extant of open societies that can successfully accommodate large scale immigration and adaptation, which, at the same time attempt to operate such closed and bounded social systems. indeed it is as yet far from clear that the European practicioners of these social systems will be able to long sustain them in the face of the demographic challenges before them and their contradictory need for more and more imported workers and chronic inability (or unwillingness) to accommodate large-scale immigration.

Freedom is better than the ant hill.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2007 10:48 pm
Well, I must admit that I don't get your points here, George.

But that is really due to my narrowed view and how businesses are run here: you just can't open a bank or ran a company without registration.

The indutrial lobby here isn't such a big force as it is in the USA, but they are (too) powerful, I admit.
And the insurance's lobby is in constant battle with the ministry of health .... which is in constant battle with the physican organistaions ...

I'd prefer the Swiss system (which is "only" similar to ours, but IMHO working much better).

You're correct about the subsidiation of some fees.

Yes, the training/education here is in direct and indirect hand of the states or the fedearl government, not only for medical professions but for any.

Yes, we've got a similar institution to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2007 02:35 am
maporsche wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
I hope to god that someday we can say goodbye to employer sponsered health care.


i happen to like mine, thanks.


Fine, I like mine too.

I don't like having to change insurance plans if I choose to work for another employer.

I don't like my employer having to incur the extra expense that healthcare is imposing on them. Expenses that foreign competetors DO NOT have to incur.


To be honest, your employer does not have to incur the expense of providing health insurance either.
It is a benefit employers use to get and keep employees, nothing more.

Also, there is no viral illness that has been cured.
Several have been prevented,but no viirus's have been cured.

There is a difference between prevented and cured.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2007 04:04 am
mysteryman wrote:

Also, there is no viral illness that has been cured.
Several have been prevented,but no viirus's have been cured.

There is a difference between prevented and cured.



We've been through this already, but while techinically you're right...it's obvious I'm speaking in laymen's terms.

Ask almost anybody if we 'cured' polio or if it was 'prevented' and what answer will you get.

Ask almost anybody if we 'cured' smallpox or it was 'prevented' and what answer will you get.


It's obvious that when forced to think about such details that a vaccine is a prevention measure, and not a cure. But in laymen's terms, does it really make a difference?


And again, to bring this up is to parse tidbits out of my overall argument to avoid answering the most basic question that I put forth. Nice try, but everyone can see it going on.

MM, do you want to take a shot at my question, USAFHokie80 must have a reading disorder as she keeps on missing that part of my posts (yet can somehow pick out tiny technically wrong tidbits).
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2007 04:11 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
maporsche wrote:
And check out who may be funding AIDS research.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=who+is+funding+AIDS+vaccine+research


The Worlds Governments....not Pfizer, Merck, etc....or at least they're not letting anyone know about it. I even browsed Merck's website, hoping to find out some info on AIDS research....nothing there.


Actually, smart guy, Merck IS funding a vaccine project. It went into phase II trials on december 13, 2004. It was co-funded by the NIH. Their vaccine was based on a weakened adenovirus with the subtype B HIV genes implanted.

Here's info on the Glaxo vaccine: http://www.hvtn.org/media/press_releases.sht?id=19
http://www.thebody.com/content/art8353.html

Happy reading.



From the 2nd GSK article, it looks like the EU is FUNDING the project, and GSK is collecting a check to conduct the research, and I'm sure will get the contract to produce the vaccine. I'm sure GSK saw that the EU was going to pay SOMEBODY to produce this vaccine, there was no way that any Pharma would fund the research themselves, as there's no profit in it, but there would be profit in manufacturing a vaccine that somebody else funded the research for......nice line of work these Phama companies.

I see nothing about the NIH in either article. Are you making this **** up?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2007 04:35 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I find this to be a very strange concept - a government enforced mandate for all people (or citizens, or residents) to purchase health insurance from one of a list of presumably government-approved providers.

Strange? How is it stranger than a government-enforced mandate to purchase insurance for your car?

georgeob1 wrote:
In addition it could lead to the organization of medical providers into competing service groups (such as with current HMOs). This of course creates significant limitations on the ability of individuals to freely choose their own medical providers - even if they are willing to pay for them themselves.

1) Maybe it could, theoretically. But so far, in 60 years of German history, it hasn't. Which is at least some evidence that it might work in America, too.

2) How is this different from your current system, which also creates significant limitations on the ability of individuals to freely choose their own medical providers? Under the current system, 40 million or so Americans are uninsured -- not because they freely chose to, but because they can't afford it. That's a limitation too, and a pretty hefty one at that.

georgeob1 wrote:
Thirdly, it adds yet another layer of administrative cost and profit to the delivery of medical care.

Not necessarily, because a large part of current insurance bureaucracies dedicates itself to buck-passing. Universal health insurance would cut, if not eliminate, this part of private health insurance bureaucracies. It is not clear to me at all that current Democratic health care reform plans would increase the total size of bureaucracies.
0 Replies
 
 

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