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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:00 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
By the way, the insurance companies and hospitals and the way billing is done is HEAVILY regulated by the government through various agencies... So if you're complaining about all these things now, what do you think will happen when the govt takes full control?



Show us which government regulations regulate hospital billings?


You're a waste of time to bother with. You can go look it up if you're really interested, but I suspect you're not.


More BS! Show us your proof.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:01 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
ehBeth wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
You said that your father's stuff was 10 years ago... That was well before the proliferation of computers into most medical facilities. Clerical errors were common.

See, this is my point... You'll criticize a system, having NO idea how it actually works or some of the actual problems in it... but then when someone tells you about them you refuse to believe them.

You're not interested in the truth. You're interested in blaming someone else.


It happened last week. It happened today.

I think
Quote:
when someone tells you about them you refuse to believe them. You're not interested in the truth.
is something that could be well said to you today, on this subject.


I've already said that hospitals make mistakes. It's but cyclo and miller seem to think it's a huge conspiracy.


I never said it was a CONSPIRACY...Do you know how to read?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:04 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ehBeth wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think that the hospitals and insurance companies both bill for each and every piece of work they think they can actually get away with - whether it is legitimate or not.


I'm curious what work the insurance company bills the patient for.

I've worked in and around different types of insurance for over 25 years now. Canadian companies, U.S. companies, European companies.

I've never seen an insurance company bill a patient for any work in those years.


I should have been clearer - they pass the bills along, ie, refuse to pay, for everything they think they can get away with doing.

I don't mind clarifying, but it should have been apparent...

Cycloptichorn


Nonsense! If you'd read the insurance contract signed by the patient, you'd see what is paid for and what isn't by the insurance company. It's all there in BLACK AND WHITE...
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:09 am
How many US citizens go to Canada for medical care each year?
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:10 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
If you're claiming you have "demonstrated knowledge of health care insurance," your knowledge is lacking big time. Your formula doesn't resemble any health plan that I'm aware. Please show us in black and white the plan you show as an example; 1) premium paid, 2) deductibles, and 3) net due for high cost surgery?


That was an example of a possible plan, it doesn't need to be an actual one to demonstrate the point.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:10 am
Miller wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:


Since when does medicare and medicaid pay for food?


Who said that they do?


You did. You said something to the affect that these programs would prevent elderly people from "starving in the street". (or some words to that effect)
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:11 am
Miller wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Miller wrote:
And as far as the nonsense posted in this forum on "formularies", anyone with medical experience knows, that hospitals have formulary committees that meet on a regular basis and have the right and obligation to change formularies at any time, without consultation with an insurance company.


It's hardly nonsense. The hospital can do whatever they want. But the insurance company will only pay for what is approved on THEIR formulary, regardless of what the hospital wants to administer.


They have that right of course. So you'll have to pay for the medication or do without. The choice is yours.


That's my point...
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:16 am
Miller wrote:
USAFHokie80 wrote:


It's hardly nonsense.


It's nonsense coming from you, as you have neither a solid background in pharmacology or in pharmaceutics.


Firstly, you have no idea what my experience is. Secondly, I don't need to be a pharmacist to know how formularies are used by different entities. I'm curious why you would assume these things...
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:22 am
Miller wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Gee Miller, I guess that whole lifetime of work in the Medical industry has left you without any knowledge of how things actually work, according to Hokie. If only we all had realized long ago that Medicaid and Medicare were the reasons our costs as a nation went up, on average, 20% or so a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Cycloptichorn


Where would this nation be, if we didn't have Medicare and Medicaid to help seniors and the poverty-stricken?

Do we really want 90 year old seniors dying from starvation in the streets of our major cities?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:32 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Miller wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Gee Miller, I guess that whole lifetime of work in the Medical industry has left you without any knowledge of how things actually work, according to Hokie. If only we all had realized long ago that Medicaid and Medicare were the reasons our costs as a nation went up, on average, 20% or so a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Cycloptichorn


Where would this nation be, if we didn't have Medicare and Medicaid to help seniors and the poverty-stricken?

Do we really want 90 year old seniors dying from starvation in the streets of our major cities?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:33 am
It's obvious that you don't practice law.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 03:29 am
Law? What's that have to do with any of this?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 08:35 am
You don't seem to understand anything about "evidence" to back up your statements. You're too sloppy to be responsible for anything too important. Your statements have very little credibilty because they are sloppy and without evidence.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 08:40 am
A new analysis issued by Kaiser finds that seniors consistently spent a larger share of their income out of pocket on health care than younger people between 1998 and 2003. Given the persistent differences between young and old, it suggests that even with Medicare's prescription drug benefit, significantly narrowing the wide gap between seniors and younger adults in their out-of-pocket spending is unlikely.

Link to Kaiser analysis (PDF-data)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 08:57 am
Walter, I've been wondering about our cost at Kaiser, especially because my out of pocket for drugs have increased, but I had the impression because of my wife's employment at Kaiser when my co-pay was non-existent. Now I pay for everything, and my drug costs seems to have increased quite a bit. What I don't understand is that on some drugs, there is no savings at all when the drug cost is $10, we must pay $10.

This is on top of the monthly premium we pay about $150 every month. The savings doesn't even come close to what we pay, so we're actually paying five times the cost of drugs.

Example: Our monthly premium is about $150 x 12 = $1,800. My quarterly drug expense is approximately $82 x 4 = $328. I'm paying a "premium" of over $1,000 for the priviledge of "saving" about $500 from the drug plan. It would be cheaper to stop the drug plan, put that $1,800 in my bank, and pay the full price for my drugs.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 09:05 am
USAFHokie80 wrote:
Miller wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Gee Miller, I guess that whole lifetime of work in the Medical industry has left you without any knowledge of how things actually work, according to Hokie. If only we all had realized long ago that Medicaid and Medicare were the reasons our costs as a nation went up, on average, 20% or so a year for the last 5 or 6 years.

Cycloptichorn


Where would this nation be, if we didn't have Medicare and Medicaid to help seniors and the poverty-stricken?

Do we really want 90 year old seniors dying from starvation in the streets of our major cities?


They would be dying because they couldn't afford to buy food due to having to purchase the multitude of drugs they need to live.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 09:13 am
Miller wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ehBeth wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think that the hospitals and insurance companies both bill for each and every piece of work they think they can actually get away with - whether it is legitimate or not.


I'm curious what work the insurance company bills the patient for.

I've worked in and around different types of insurance for over 25 years now. Canadian companies, U.S. companies, European companies.

I've never seen an insurance company bill a patient for any work in those years.


I should have been clearer - they pass the bills along, ie, refuse to pay, for everything they think they can get away with doing.

I don't mind clarifying, but it should have been apparent...

Cycloptichorn


Nonsense! If you'd read the insurance contract signed by the patient, you'd see what is paid for and what isn't by the insurance company. It's all there in BLACK AND WHITE...


I agree with Miller. There are many health insurance plans that provides different coverages, and it's up to the consumer to read the fine print. It can be a nightmare for anyone to comprehend, and that's the reason people who purchase their own plans must know what they're paying for. Even company sponsored health plans have a ceiling; it used to be one million dollars.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 11:02 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

First, I don't think it was 'bureaucratic controls' which limited my father's coverage. He had good coverage. What he didn't have was honest people at the Hospital and the Insurance company who lived up to proper accounting practices. If anything, more controls would have been helpful.

Do you believe that Federal legislation requiring health insurance for all and subsidizing a large portion of it will somehow make hospital administrators and insurance companies more honest or better accountants?

The truth is that the rate caps and standard reimbursement rates of insurance companies don't always cover the real costs of the hospitals, laboratories and practicioners who depend on them for payment. In response they search the insurer's lists of numerical codes for authorized services to seek ways of recouping their costs. There is deceit and dishonesty on both sides of this process. It is an expensive, bureaucratic and often deceitful game of authorization codes and numbers that is necessary to replace the absent forces of the free market that would otherwise regulate price and demand.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Second, I'm not sure how we would pay for services with no limits. But I doubt it's impossible. I can tell you that I don't accept that the current situation is the only way of doing things.

I think that it would probably increase costs somewhat to have truly 'unlimited' medical care; that is, to provide each and every person with the most expensive of all surgeries is probably beyond our limits. But that doesn't mean we can't make the attempt to do so, and how much waste is there in the current system? Let me spend a day pondering it, and I will get back to you.

Cycloptichorn


Well, you've had your day - any results? The "... increase costs somewhat..." is likely to be a very large number. It is easy to do a linear numerical analysis demonstrating the great potential economies of scale attentant to centrally managed and financed systems. However human nature and all the many second order effects that go with it in the way of the results they predict.

That was the case with the failed centrally planned economies of the now unlamented Socialist world of the 20th century. The initial appearances of benefits due to mass industrialization and agriculture,and the sacrifice of generations that went with it, yielded only mass production of shoddy goods and lousy services that nobody wanted. "We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us." became the ironic catch phrase that aptly described the system. Worse, to sustain its operation, it had to suppress human freedom of thought and action.

I will agree that this can be counter intuitive. What, after all, could be more inefficient than the duplication of services, administration, financial management and all the rest that goes with market capitalism and competition? On a rational basis a centrally managed system appears to offer huge benefits. The problem is that they require Plato's phiolospher kings to manage them. Unfortunately such creatures don't exist.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 11:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
A new analysis issued by Kaiser finds that seniors consistently spent a larger share of their income out of pocket on health care than younger people between 1998 and 2003. Given the persistent differences between young and old, it suggests that even with Medicare's prescription drug benefit, significantly narrowing the wide gap between seniors and younger adults in their out-of-pocket spending is unlikely.

Link to Kaiser analysis (PDF-data)


Is this supposed to be a surprising discovery? Most people don't need any medical care at all in their 20s, 30s and 40s. The large increases in life experctancy experienced in the Western World over the last century have resulted from lifestyle changes and increasingly costly medical care, treatment and drugs.

It remains to be seen whether Europe, with its aging population and restrictions on immigration will long be able to sustain the economic burdens of the relatively generous pension and social welfare systems it now maintains. Indeed changes and restrictions to them are already beginning to appear. It is likely that process will continue and grow.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 11:23 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
A new analysis issued by Kaiser finds that seniors consistently spent a larger share of their income out of pocket on health care than younger people between 1998 and 2003. Given the persistent differences between young and old, it suggests that even with Medicare's prescription drug benefit, significantly narrowing the wide gap between seniors and younger adults in their out-of-pocket spending is unlikely.

Link to Kaiser analysis (PDF-data)


Is this supposed to be a surprising discovery? Most people don't need any medical care at all in their 20s, 30s and 40s. The large increases in life experctancy experienced in the Western World over the last century have resulted from lifestyle changes and increasingly costly medical care, treatment and drugs.

It remains to be seen whether Europe, with its aging population and restrictions on immigration will long be able to sustain the economic burdens of the relatively generous pension and social welfare systems it now maintains. Indeed changes and restrictions to them are already beginning to appear. It is likely that process will continue and grow.


I agree that many countries in Europe with its high cost of social services will become a larger burden on their economies for many reasons, one of which is their aging demographics - especially in Germany. (This is what I read a couple of years ago, but think it still holds true.) The French continue to demand greater benefits and shorter workweeks that will also become a problem (if not already). They cannot possibly sustain this course without penalties within their own country and in the world market place. With two of the largest Euro countries carrying such high social costs cannot possibly continue without some consequences.
0 Replies
 
 

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