IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

Advocate wrote:

A large percentage of doctors in this country are overpaid, and should suffer a wealthdectomy.

Doctors in other countries are paid far less in general, and there is no shortage of them.

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First of all, you haven't defined what you mean by
" a large percentage", however let me outline what it costs to educate an American doctor today.

Lets say your kid goes to public high school, so that's basically a free deal. However, if you want the very best you'll pay about $15,000/year to put your kid through a private high school in your town, and if you're really eager for your kid to get the best education, you'll pay $40,000/year to send your kid to an out-of-state prep school.

That means that about $160,000 would be paid to put your child through high school.

Now it's college time... Lets say your kid wants to go to a college like Tufts or Brandeis that has a good reputation for getting their graduates into law and medical school, and of course your kid will want to room at the school, so more time can be spent studying and doing medical research.

The cost per year of undergraduate education in the US is about $40,000 per year for a private college such as Brandeis or Tufts. With room and board etc included you could expect to pay a total of $60,000 + per year of undegraduate education in an excellent college.

Now your kid does well, gets accepted to medical school and gets accepted at an out-of-state medical school. The tutition/room+board/books/computers/study guides/equipement to practice medicl skills could come to about $75,000+ per year or for 4 years at least $300,000.

You're not rich but you want the best for your kid, so you help your child get loans to pay his/her way through undergraduate and medical school.

Depending on when the child took out the loan, the rate could be somewhere from 3.5% to 6%.

The total amount of the loan is estimated at about $540,000 and the undergraduate loan will be paid starting after 13 years, and the medical school loan starting after 9 years ( interest compounded during the whole time (included a 4-5 year residency/intern program) with interest accumulating throughout the payback period.
.

Total amounts due:

If loan is paid off in a lump sum following residency, the amount would be of the order of about $800,000. If the loan is paid off monthly, over a 20-30 year period following the residency, you could be looking at total well in excess of $1.5 million dollars.

The education of Anerican MD is expensive and is well worth it.

If you would like to receive your medical care in another country, please be my guest.

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Advocate wrote:

Remember that a third of our population have no or inadequate health insurance. Many of these people are dying as a result. This is incongruous when you consider that that we will be spending $750 B on our military per year, but can't afford to help our fellow citizens with getting decent care.

You're mixing apples and pears. If people aren't covered by health insurance for economic reasons, they should apply for medicaid . Otherwise, best to get a job that pays for health insurance as a benefitor move to a foreign country of their choice where care is cheap and doctors are abundant (!).

Now to your comment about the military. If we didn't have a military and thus didn't have to pay soldiers $750 billion, our country could be attacked, everyone killed and thus there would be no need for either medical or even health insurance.

Which will it be?

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Some doctors are over-paid, some are under-paid and some are paid just right. There are good doctors, mediocre doctors and poor doctors. I'm thinking doctors may just be like other people but I could be wrong.

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Doctors v Plumbers?

Who is more important to you, the doctor or the plumber?

The average plumber mays $60+/hour and at 60 hr/week, makes about $172,000/year.

For MDs (interist )in your usual practice ( large or even small) the hours/week average 70-80 hours. At a flat salary of $140,000-$200,000 ( internist )/year.The average MD ( internist ) using these figures ( for example ) would be making $38-55/hr vs the $60/hr pay of the plumber.

Is there some reason why you would say that MDs are overpaid and plumbers aren't?

If you're having a heart attack are you going to call your plumber to give your big "flush" ?

For an MD:
4 years of high school

4 years of undergraduate college

4 years of medical school

1 year of internship

5+ years of residency

1-3 years fellowship

Now compare that education to that of a plumber.

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dyslexia wrote:

Some doctors are over-paid, some are under-paid and some are paid just right. There are good doctors, mediocre doctors and poor doctors. I'm thinking doctors may just be like other people but I could be wrong.

we have a local minister who contributes to a weekly "faith" page in the town paper. the page is a forum to discuss how "faith" does or does not effect a variety of issues. somehow, on any given topic, this minister manages to gripe bitterly about his student loans for divinity school.

i must have been absent the day they put a gun to his head and said; "thou shalt be a preacher. or else.".

this contrasts oddly with a close buddy, who upon finishing med school, quit playing bass in my band 20 years ago to be a doctor. today, he can't stop enthusing about the healing procedures he has been successful with in his practice.

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Medicaid is difficult to get, and usually goes only to indigent children or the elderly.

Plumbers don't make $170,000 per year, unless they own a pretty large firm employing many plumbers.

Lawyers and others who must go to grad school have similarly large educational expenses and rarely make what doctors earn.

We are spending far too much on the military. If we diverted a fraction of the money to assist in implementing a universal system, untold millions would be helped.

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Advocate wrote:

Medicaid is difficult to get, and usually goes only to indigent children or the elderly.

Plumbers don't make $170,000 per year, unless they own a pretty large firm employing many plumbers.

Lawyers and others who must go to grad school have similarly large educational expenses and rarely make what doctors earn.

We are spending far too much on the military. If we diverted a fraction of the money to assist in implementing a universal system, untold millions would be helped.

You do realize that the vast majority of money spent on the military goes to pay,benefits,retirement,health care,and all of the other personnel related expenses.
Only a very small part of the defense budget is actually used for war material and weapons.

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MM, could you support that statement?

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Advocate wrote:

MM, could you support that statement?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/budget06/budget06Agencies.html

Quote:

The fiscal 2006 defense budget of $419.3 billion represents a 4.8 percent increase over fiscal 2005 in real terms, but is about $3 billion less than projected for fiscal 2006 in last year's plan.

This budget does not include an expected administration request for $80 billion in supplemental appropriations, including $75 billion for the Defense Department to cover the cost of military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan in the current fiscal year.

Highlights of the spending include $108.94 billion for military personnel, including funding for a 3.1 percent pay raise and additional recruiting and retention bonuses for troops. That funding would include $4.1 billion for Special Operations forces -- boosting their numbers by 1,400 and increasing spending for language training -- underscoring the request's assessment that the forces have "contributed significantly" to the war on terror. The budget also allocates $416 million to start the repatriation of 70,000 military personnel from overseas bases

.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/budget07/agencies.html

The nearly $440 billion defense budget contains $110.8 billion for military personnel, including a modest 2.2 percent pay increase, as well as $84.2 billion for weapons systems and $73.2 billion for research and development.

On both links,read the part about the Dept of Veterans affairs also.
Although now a seperate dept,they can and should be considered part of the DoD,IMHO.

While we are talking about it,here is a chart showing what ENLISTED personnel get paid...
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/2007Pay/blsalenl.htm

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That is hardly the vast majority of dollars going to pensions, etc. By your own numbers, over $250 B goes to salaries, equipment, etc., and that is not counting the supplemental amounts, which are nearing 90B, for Iraq and Afghan., which amounts are almost solely for salaries and equip.

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Advocate wrote:

That is hardly the vast majority of dollars going to pensions, etc. By your own numbers, over $250 B goes to salaries, equipment, etc., and that is not counting the supplemental amounts, which are nearing 90B, for Iraq and Afghan., which amounts are almost solely for salaries and equip.

Thats why I said you need to consider the VA budget also.
It also works with the military personnel.

And since the supplementary bills are NOT included in the budget for the fiscal year,I didnt include them.
I thought we were talking solely about the fiscal year budget.

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Advocate wrote:

Plumbers don't make $170,000 per year, unless they own a pretty large firm employing many plumbers.

Lawyers and others who must go to grad school have similarly large educational expenses and rarely make what doctors earn.

At $60/hour and overtime, your average plumber can make more than $170,000/year even in a small company, working for someone else.

Law school students, having only 3 years study past the undergraduate level have very small loans compared to medical students ( for reasons stated preveiously ).

lawyers in private practice have the potential to ear up to and well over $600/hour. I don't know a single MD, who makes $600/hour.

Idea

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Medicaid is for the poor, be they adults or children. The non-poor buy their own insurance.

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Miller wrote:

lawyers in private practice have the potential to ear up to and well over $600/hour. I don't know a single MD, who makes $600/hour.

dunno. the heart surgeon that did my quad bypass made about 10,000 for my 6 hour surgery.

not complaining though. best money i ever spent. :wink:

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

Miller wrote:
lawyers in private practice have the potential to ear up to and well over $600/hour. I don't know a single MD, who makes $600/hour.

dunno. the heart surgeon that did my quad bypass made about 10,000 for my 6 hour surgery.

not complaining though. best money i ever spent. :wink:

YOUR anecdotel evidence doesn't mean anything....only his does.

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Miller wrote:

Advocate wrote:

Plumbers don't make $170,000 per year, unless they own a pretty large firm employing many plumbers.

Lawyers and others who must go to grad school have similarly large educational expenses and rarely make what doctors earn.

At $60/hour and overtime, your average plumber can make more than $170,000/year even in a small company, working for someone else.

Law school students, having only 3 years study past the undergraduate level have very small loans compared to medical students ( for reasons stated preveiously ).

lawyers in private practice have the potential to ear up to and well over $600/hour. I don't know a single MD, who makes $600/hour.

A plumber is paid $60 an hour? Since when? You may pay $60 for the plumber to show up but the guy doing the work isn't getting all the money.

Quote:

Compensation
The average yearly salary for plumbers in 2005 was $44,850, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Keep in mind that apprentices start work at half the salary earned by experienced workers. You can expect to receive raises throughout your training though, often every six months.

Most plumbers belong to the UA (United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing, Pipefitting, Sprinkler Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada). Union members generally earn more than nonunion workers.

Source

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maporsche wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Miller wrote:
lawyers in private practice have the potential to ear up to and well over $600/hour. I don't know a single MD, who makes $600/hour.

dunno. the heart surgeon that did my quad bypass made about 10,000 for my 6 hour surgery.

not complaining though. best money i ever spent. :wink:

YOUR anecdotel evidence doesn't mean anything....only his does.

uhhh...sorry ?

btw, maporshe- the pup in your avatar looks a whole lot like my pup, only a little lighter fur. good choice !

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parados brought it back to earth with his post. $600/hour? Anybody want to buy a bridge I have in Montana?

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Some high profile lawyers may bill at $600 an hour but that isn't the norm nor does the lawyer keep all $600. He has legal assistents, admins, and overhead to pay out of that $600.

Some hair stylists charge $400 for a haircut, but again that is NOT the norm, and the average hair stylist doesn't make $1,000,000 a year. If you want to use the word "average" then you can't use the high end figures.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

parados brought it back to earth with his post. $600/hour?

Guess you've never used the services of a "high-end" Boston lawyer, have you?

Corporate law pays even more, to the right man... Cool

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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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