IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

Miller wrote:

Some American doctors believe that many Medicare patients spend a good part of their free time visiting doctors are part their senior social time.

Should read:
Some American doctors believe that many Medicare patients spend a good part of their free time visiting docotrs as part of their senior social time.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

My sister is in the process of setting up our "quarterly" sibling luncheon between October 18 and November 7 (when I'll be home from vacation). I'll ask my brother, an ophthalmologist, with about two dozen doctors who work for him in Lodi and Stockton about waiting times for surgery. I'll report back after I've had a chance to talk with him.

The reason I'm doing this is very simple; I don't think speed of service is the same no matter whether it's under a system like ours in the US or any of the universal health care systems elsewhere. I'm sure there's are a wide range of timings involved. I'm also not sure there is an "immediacy" to eye surgery - most of the time.

Some patients with cataracts never elect to have surgery and instead live out their lives with thick glasses.

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Quote:

Cataract Surgery Cost & Profile

* Avg. Cost: $3000
* Candidate: Severe vision changes due to cataract
* Length: 1 hour
* Treatments: One
* Results: Long-lasting
* Back to work: 1-7 days

This was found on google and notice that the cost is $3000/eye. Also, the cost will vary with the location within the USA, where the surgery is done.

With implant surgery, it used to be that patients would stay over night in the hospital following day surgery. I don't think this is the case any more.

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miller wrote :

Quote:

Cataract Surgery Cost & Profile

* Avg. Cost: $3000

we know , of course , that cataract surgery in ontario is NOT FREE !we pay for it through various taxes and a small health premium .
when we were young and foolish , i suppose we could have used the "extra" taxes for all kinds of things that were important to us at that time .

now that we are "a little older" Shocked

:wink: , we are glad we paid our share for the health-care we are getting now at an earlier time .
it's even possible that we have so far paid far more INTO the system than we have TAKEN out . so far , we have been relatively healthy , but we know that it could change WITHOUT notice !

being somewhat "conservative" (but not in a political way Rolling Eyes

) , we always looked upon our health insurance the way we looked upon our fire/liability insurance . we always hope we'll never need it , but if we need it , we know IT'S BEEN PAID FOR IN ADVANCE !
hbg

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OK, I stand corrected - hamburger was NOT bragging: he was merely informing us how things work in a more enlightened society. The result iappears to be that such services are comparable in Ontario and The U.S.

I checked with the surgeon and his price for the surgery is $3500 per eye (a bit higher than Miller's cite, but this is Northern California. - he will readily discount that 10% for cash up front.)

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suffice it to say, health care delivery systems meeting the needs of the general population are not working ANYWHERE. There's got to be a better way.

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Quote:

ANYWHERE.

Not true, as things are running very smoothly up here in the Commonweatlh of Massachusetts. Laughing

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Miller wrote:

Quote:
ANYWHERE.

Not true, as things are running very smoothly up here in the Commonweatlh of Massachusetts.

yeah right.

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george :
i can assure that in ontario - as probably in any society - not all citizens are satisfied with everything the government does do AND DOES NOT DO .
some citizens want the government to get out of the health care system altogether , others think it not right that dental care , prescription meds and prescription glassess are not covered (unless you are a welfare case) .
i guess any government has to try and do those things that appeal to the majority of citizens if they want to have any hope of being re-elected .

i just read that in some U.S. states , police cars are equipped with cameras to read car license numbers in order to help them track stolen cars and apprehend criminals . something like that would NOT go over well in ontario , since citizens would view it as undue police powers (snooping !) .
about 15 years ago the government of the day set up traffic cameras to catch speeders (very popular in europe Shocked

) . the government was turfed at the next election (i would not want to say that was the ONLY reason , but it sure was one of the election issues used by the other parties !) . no party has dared bring it back , even though trial balloons have been floated - to be shot down quickly !) .

what's the saying : different strokes for different folks !
hbg

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dyslexia wrote:

suffice it to say, health care delivery systems meeting the needs of the general population are not working ANYWHERE. There's got to be a better way.

They are certainly imperfect. In some respects we have the worst of both worlds with increasingly pervasive government systems (Medicare & Medicaid) that insreasingly set the standards for the IT aspects of codifying various services and their "official" reimbursement rates, all of which are used by independent insurers for their own systems. The administrative and bureaucratic processes alone add about 20% to the costs of medical care.

Somehow I am exceedingly incredulous when some naive booster of more government intervention into our lives urges me to believe that the cure for the government distortion of the market we have now is more of the same poision.

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georgeob1 wrote:

dyslexia wrote:
suffice it to say, health care delivery systems meeting the needs of the general population are not working ANYWHERE. There's got to be a better way.

They are certainly imperfect. In some respects we have the worst of both worlds with increasingly pervasive government systems (Medicare & Medicaid) that insreasingly set the standards for the IT aspects of codifying various services and their "official" reimbursement rates, all of which are used by independent insurers for their own systems. The administrative and bureaucratic processes alone add about 20% to the costs of medical care.

Somehow I am exceedingly incredulous when some naive booster of more government intervention into our lives urges me to believe that the cure for the government distortion of the market we have now is more of the same poision.

You truly believe that the problems we face in the health care industry are caused by governmental distortion?

Cycloptichorn

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georgeob, Without government intervention, we would not have the educational system that was the seed that helped us become the largest economy of the world. The GI Bill that allowed our vets to attend college after WWII was "government intervention."

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

You truly believe that the problems we face in the health care industry are caused by governmental distortion?

Cycloptichorn

Yes. Do you offer an alternative explanation?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Without government intervention, we would not have the educational system that was the seed that helped us become the largest economy of the world. The GI Bill that allowed our vets to attend college after WWII was "government intervention."

We were already the largest economy in the world - well before the GI bill was passed.

Certainly the GI Bill was a very effective way to beneficially smooth the reentry into the work force and the economy of the millions of returning servicemen after WWII. In addition it did indeed spur the economic transformation of our economy after the abnormalities of the war. Finally it contributed to making college education a normal event for the middle class, as opposed to the more exclusive and restrictive situation that preceded it. In all of this, the GI Bill was a government program designed to smooth the transition from another government managed anomoly - the war - back to more normal conditions.

Apart from this, I think you would have a very hard time demonstrating that government itself has significantly improved education in this country - at any level.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You truly believe that the problems we face in the health care industry are caused by governmental distortion?

Cycloptichorn

Yes. Do you offer an alternative explanation?

cicerone imposter wrote:
Without government intervention, we would not have the educational system that was the seed that helped us become the largest economy of the world. The GI Bill that allowed our vets to attend college after WWII was "government intervention."

We were already the largest economy in the world before the GI bill was passed.

Certainly the GI Bill was a very effective way to beneficially smooth the reentrance into the work force and the economy of the millions of returning servicemen after WWII. In addition it did indeed spur the economic transformation of our economy after the abnormalities of the war. Finally it contributed to making college education a normal event for the middle class, as opposed to the more exclusive and restrictive situation that preceded it. In all of this, the GI Bill was a government program designed to smooth the transition from another government managed anomaly - the war - back to more normal conditions.

Apart from this, I think you would have a very hard time demonstrating that government itself has significantly improved education in this country - at any level.[/quote]

I agree that our educational system has been diminished for several decades now, and there is nothing that is encouraging about NCLB and the federal government mandated standards. Our standards in math and sciences have fallen precipitously against other developed countries, and at the current rate of dysfunction, our economy will suffer.

The Montgomery GI Bill continues to this day, and continues to help our country educationally, socially, economically, and to assist veterans purchase a home. It's still a very good government intervention program that benefits all of our citizens.

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The GI Bill is paid for by the person using it - unlike much of health care. Oh, and it can't be used for 50% of the first enlistment.

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That's funny; I used the GI Bill while going to college, and I never paid back a penny.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

That's funny; I used the GI Bill while going to college, and I never paid back a penny.

That's because you pay for the GI bill your first year, at least a year before you're allowed to start using it.

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georgeob1 wrote:

In response to a post by hamburger above, who was bragging about the speed and responsiveness of the Canadian system to provide catharact surgery for his wife, I made an inquiry with an acquaintance - a well-known and qualified local eye surgeon about comparable waiting times here for the procedure (he does 8 - 10 of these every week). he informed me that, from the first visit confirming the need for the procedure, the wait for surgery is about one week, mostly to provide time for the ordering & delivery of the replacement lens after measuring the patient's eye dimensions. He added that, although in Canada many surgeons will perform simultaneous surgery on both eyes, his practice (and, he said, that of most doctors here) was to do them individually about two months apart to limit the risk to the patient.

That's here as well: about six weeks to two months between those two operations, same reason.

Mother's doctor does 2.000 operations per year, my aunt's doctor 4.000.
Waiting time at the first is up to six weeks, at the second up to eight weeks. (You get/choose the date of operation; from that time onwards.)

And it's all within the normal, regular service provided by our universal health care insurance comapnies - hus I've no idea about the costs.

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hamburger wrote:

george :
i can assure that in ontario - as probably in any society - not all citizens are satisfied with everything the government does do AND DOES NOT DO .
some citizens want the government to get out of the health care system altogether , others think it not right that dental care , prescription meds and prescription glassess are not covered (unless you are a welfare case) .
i guess any government has to try and do those things that appeal to the majority of citizens if they want to have any hope of being re-elected .

i just read that in some U.S. states , police cars are equipped with cameras to read car license numbers in order to help them track stolen cars and apprehend criminals . something like that would NOT go over well in ontario , since citizens would view it as undue police powers (snooping !) .
about 15 years ago the government of the day set up traffic cameras to catch speeders (very popular in europe ) . the government was turfed at the next election (i would not want to say that was the ONLY reason , but it sure was one of the election issues used by the other parties !) . no party has dared bring it back , even though trial balloons have been floated - to be shot down quickly !) .

what's the saying : different strokes for different folks !
hbg

That's nothing! What do you think of those "heat-sensitive cameras" the cops use to monitor activities going on inside houses?

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Quote:

I think you would have a very hard time demonstrating that government itself has significantly improved education in this country - at any level.

At any level? For sure the US government has played a major role in education at the graduate and postdoctoral levels for many universities. Where else would the funds for academic research come from?
In graduate school, I never spent a cent for tuition as I was supported by fellowships for the whole 5 years.
Then as a postdoctoral fellow I was supported by more fellowships until I was able to fund my own research through NIH grants.

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IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

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