65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:37 pm
@georgeob1,


georgeob1 wrote:

It will be very interesting to see what happens when the public discovers what this bill actually does and didn't do. It makes no changes to the health care delivery system - the supply of doctors, specialists and treatment facilities is not increased at all.


Did the until now health insurance system increase the supply of doctors, specialists and treatment facilities?
Do you know of any health insurance system elsewhere which deals with such a supply?

georgeob1 wrote:
Health insurance premiums will go up and up.


So until now premiums didn't?

georgeob1 wrote:
This bill is just a ruse to mask the eventual creation of a national health service like the ones in England and Canada. Then your quality of care will plummet.


Well, that might be. Or any other form of mandatory health insurance.

However, I sincerely doubt that quality of care will plummet: those who want some extras will still have the money to pay for it.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:42 pm
strange, george, you should think quality of care will plummet. national health care systems pretty much all report higher levels of patient satisfaction, longer life expectancies, better public health metrics, fewer patients per doctor, and costs on average half per capita of what we pay. Not exactly plummeting standards.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:54 pm
@MontereyJack,
That's a fairly all-inclusive assertion. Perhaps you would be prepared to back it up with some authoritative data.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:00 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
authoritative data
would that be like explaining the holy trinity?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  5  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:19 pm
You ask for it, you got it, george, and as I said it's pretty devastating for the US private health care system. I doubt this is going to format correctly, so you can go to the original at wikipedia, topic "Health Care System"

Quote:
[edit] Cross-country comparisons
Direct comparisons of health statistics across nations are complex. The Commonwealth Fund, in its annual survey, "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall", compares the performance of the health care systems in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and the U.S. Its 2007 study found that, although the U.S. system is the most expensive, it consistently underperforms compared to the other countries.[11] A major difference between the U.S. and the other countries in the study is that the U.S. is the only country without universal health care. The OECD also collects comparative statistics, and has published brief country profiles.[12][13][14]

Country Life expectancy Infant mortality rate Physicians per 1000 people Nurses per 1000 people Per capita expenditure on health (USD) Healthcare costs as a percent of GDP % of government revenue spent on health % of health costs paid by government
Australia 81.4 4.2 2.8 9.7 3,137 8.7 17.7 67.7
Canada 80.7 5.0 2.2 9.0 3,895 10.1 16.7 69.8
France 81.0 4.0 3.4 7.7 3,601 11.0 14.2 79.0
Germany 79.8 3.8 3.5 9.9 3,588 10.4 17.6 76.9
Japan 82.6 2.6 2.1 9.4 2,581 8.1 16.8 81.3
Norway 80.0 3.0 3.8 16.2 5,910 9.0 17.9 83.6
Sweden 81.0 2.5 3.6 10.8 3,323 9.1 13.6 81.7
UK 79.1 4.8 2.5 10.0 2,992 8.4 15.8 81.7
USA 78.1 6.7 2.4 10.6 7,290 16.0 18.5 45.4

Efficiency and effectiveness of service are the focus of these profiles. Perhaps most efficient is Healthcare in Taiwan, costing 6 percent of GDP (~1/4 US cost, allowing for GDP differences), universal coverage by a government-run insurer with smart card IDs to fight fraud.

Life Expectancy vs Health Care Spending in 2007 for OECD Countries. The data source is http://oecd.org and the image was built at http://flagscatter.com



The columns format much better in the original, but basically the US is bumping around near or at the bottom in just about all categories, except for cost, and there we are WAY more expensive than everybody else. It's not a case of "you pay for what you get". We pay for what we don't get.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:33 pm
The OECD today wrote:
In light of the historic vote by the US Congress, this brief outlines some of the key challenges facing the US health system. The United States spent 16% of its national income (GDP) on health in 2007, which is by far, the highest share in the OECD and more than seven percentage points higher than the average of 8.9% in OECD countries. This presentation was given by Mark Pearson, Head of OECD Health Division, to the U.S Senate Special Committee on Aging.

The report is as pdf here
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:50 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
What will this bill do? The biggest "potential" change would affect senior citizens, since the Medicare reimbursement cuts provided for in the bill would, if ever implemented, cause many more doctors than already do to refuse to see Medicare patients. These Medicare reimbursement cuts, however, will never be implemented. Projected Medicare cuts were necessary only to fool people into thinking that the bill would not blow up the federal budget (these "cuts" pay for the new expenditures).


The Medicare reimbursement cuts mainly affect the Medicare Advantage plans, and the insurance carriers who run these plans. The Medicare Advantage program costs the government substantially more per person than regular Medicare does. Cutting these reimbursements is a reasonable, cost-effective measure. While some seniors, who participated in these programs, might lose some extra benefits, they will still retain their basic Medicare coverage, and they can still have the option of purchasing a Medigap policy to cover most of what Medicare does not reimburse. In addition, all seniors will see the closing of the “donut hole” in their drug coverage, which can amount to a considerable yearly saving in terms of prescription drug costs. Since prescription drug costs are a main source of out-of-pocket medical expenses for most seniors, seniors should be quite happy with these changes.

Most seniors have not been unhappy with their Medicare coverage in the past, and they should not be unhappy with the changes which are currently proposed. They certainly will benefit from better coverage for prescription drug costs.

0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 02:48 pm
@georgeob1,
Life expectancy in both England and Canada is longer than it is in the US -- and the people there pay substantially less for their healthcare. If that's the kind of "plummet" the Democrats' "ruse" will bring about, all I can say is: let 'em ruse! Bring on the plummet!"
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 02:52 pm
@MontereyJack,
Ah. I see you and Walter got there first. More power to you!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:17 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

We pay for what we don't get.


dingdingding!
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:14 pm
Is it fair to make international comparisons of life-expectancy without factoring in the ethnic diversity of the U.S.? John Tierney of the New York Times thinks maybe not.

To Explain Longevity Gap, Look Past Health System

If you’re not rich and you get sick, in which industrialized country are you likely to get the best treatment?

The conventional answer to this question has been: anywhere but the United States. With its many uninsured citizens and its relatively low life expectancy, the United States has been relegated to the bottom of international health scorecards.

But a prominent researcher, Samuel H. Preston, has taken a closer look at the growing body of international data, and he finds no evidence that America’s health care system is to blame for the longevity gap between it and other industrialized countries. In fact, he concludes, the American system in many ways provides superior treatment even when uninsured Americans are included in the analysis.

“The U.S. actually does a pretty good job of identifying and treating the major diseases,” says Dr. Preston, a demographer at the University of Pennsylvania who is among the leading experts on mortality rates from disease. “The international comparisons don’t show we’re in dire straits.”

No one denies that the American system has problems, including its extraordinarily high costs and unnecessary treatments. But Dr. Preston and other researchers say that the costs aren’t solely due to inefficiency. Americans pay more for health care partly because they get more thorough treatment for some diseases, and partly because they get sick more often than people in Europe and other industrialized countries.

An American’s life expectancy at birth is about 78 years, which is lower than in most other affluent countries. Life expectancy is about 80 in the United Kingdom, 81 in Canada and France, and 83 in Japan, according to the World Health Organization.

This longevity gap, Dr. Preston says, is primarily due to the relatively high rates of sickness and death among middle-aged Americans, chiefly from heart disease and cancer. Many of those deaths have been attributed to the health care system, an especially convenient target for those who favor a European alternative.

But there are many more differences between Europe and the United States than just the health care system. Americans are more ethnically diverse. They eat different food. They are fatter. Perhaps most important, they used to be exceptionally heavy smokers. For four decades, until the mid-1980s, per-capita cigarette consumption was higher in the United States (particularly among women) than anywhere else in the developed world. Dr. Preston and other researchers have calculated that if deaths due to smoking were excluded, the United States would rise to the top half of the longevity rankings for developed countries.

As it is, the longevity gap starts at birth and persists through middle age, but then it eventually disappears. If you reach 80 in the United States, your life expectancy is longer than in most other developed countries. The United States is apparently doing something right for its aging population, but what?

One frequent answer has been Medicare. Its universal coverage for people over 65 has often been credited with shrinking the longevity gap between the United States and other developed countries.

But when Dr. Preston and a Penn colleague, Jessica Y. Ho, looked at mortality rates in 1965, before Medicare went into effect, they found an even more pronounced version of today’s pattern: middle-aged people died much more often in the United States than in other developed countries, but the longevity gap shrunk with age even faster than today. In that pre-Medicare era, an American who reached 75 could expect to live longer than most people elsewhere.

Besides smoking, there could be lots of other reasons that Americans are especially unhealthy in middle age. But Dr. Preston says he saw no evidence for the much-quoted estimates that poor health care is responsible for more preventable deaths in the United States than in other developed countries. (Go to nytimes.com/tierneylab for details.)

For all its faults, the American system compares well by some important measures with other developed countries, as Dr. Preston and Ms. Ho enumerate. Americans are more likely to be screened for cancer, and once cancer is detected, they are more likely to survive for five years.

It’s been argued that the survival rate for cancer appears longer in America merely because the disease is detected earlier, but Dr. Preston says that earlier detection can be an advantage in itself, and that Americans might also receive better treatment. He and Ms. Ho conclude that the mortality rates from breast cancer and prostate cancer have been declining significantly faster in the United States than in other industrialized countries.

Americans also do relatively well in surviving heart attacks and strokes, and some studies have found that hypertension is treated more successfully in the United States. Compared with Europeans, Americans are more likely to receive medication if they have heart disease, high cholesterol, lung disease or osteoporosis.

But even if the American system does provide more treatment for more sick people, couldn’t it do something to reduce its workload?

When I brought up Dr. Preston’s work to Ellen Nolte and C. Martin McKee, two prominent European critics of the American system, they suggested that he was taking too limited a view of health care. They said the system should take responsibility for preventing disease, not just treating it.

Dr. Preston acknowledges that the United States might do more to keep young and middle-aged people from getting sick, but he says it’s not clear that other countries’ systems are more effective.

“The U.S. has had one spectacular achievement in preventive medicine,” he says. “It has had the largest drop in cigarette consumption per adult of any developed country since 1985.” If Americans keep shunning cigarettes, the longevity gap could shrink no matter what happens with the health care system.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:30 pm
Some might consider it impertinent for me to post on this thread but it seems to me that the Republicans I have seen on our news broadcasts relating to these matters are talking themselves into the political wilderness.

Mr Obama has already proved that he is very smart in political terms. I think Republicans are underestimating his undoubted skills in not only winning votes but in bringing people to polling booths who never previously entered them presumably because they had no stake in the outcome.

From what I can tell 30 million Americans now do have a stake in subsequent elections who possibly hadn't before and I would imagine they will all support him.

The cost, in money terms, of our NHS is officially given as £100 billion for about 60 million of us. There are unquantifiable savings in the elimination of the anxiety at the prospect of financial ruin due to the illness or accident of any member of a family. There is also the saving from having no insurance schemes, no fine print, no arbitary decisions based on private profit, no invoices and no arguing.

It is also the case that doctors, surgeons and nurses are highly respected are are no longer referred to as sawbones or quacks as they often were in the past.

Also, the NHS is the single buyer of all the goods and services which are used in its operations and it has a reputation for hard bargaining as is to be expected from a monopoly buyer. The Minister of Health is responsible for the whole show and any serious dissatisfaction with his or her performance translates into him or her being out on their ear with a reputation in tatters.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:34 pm
@Irishk,
That is interesting: countries like Andorra, France, Switzerland, Germany, Japan have and had (according to WHO tobaccocontrol) a higher ratio of smokers compared to the USA.

(It should be noted that Preston's "paper uses data for fifteen countries for the past 60 years to demonstrate the relationship between lung cancer deaths and deaths from other causes, a relationship that enables improved calculations of deaths attributable to smoking".[Source: Preston's page @ University of Pennsylvania, Sociology Department.])
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:51 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

That's a fairly all-inclusive assertion. Perhaps you would be prepared to back it up with some authoritative data.


Wow, maybe you are coming around!

Keep that statement in mind next time you come up with a new post to author.

It seems that my fellows in this thread have done a pretty good job answering you; what say you to this?

I think that for most Republicans, the dissonance on this issue stems from the divide that they inherently see in American society: two groups, Us (almost 100% white, middle-class to rich, predominantly male) and Them (everyone else). I'm sure statistics for the Us group would show rates which are comparable to any other country on the planet; and does the other group even really matter?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 09:51 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Are they really "your fellows"?

No, I don't agree. Several critical assertions in the post to which I objected were not addressed at all in the responses to which you refer. The offered material was merely standard advocacy stuff reciting carefully selected statistics, but without any basis on which to establish meaningful comparability of the data - particularly with respect to the very small differences noted.. America is a far more diverse society dealing with far more immigration than any of those with which it is compared. There are, in addition, a host of other factors, some noted in a post above, that are relevant to average health data that were not addressed at all.

Finally, our medical system, for all its shortcomings remaind the world's primary source for innovation in fields ranging from medicine to diagnostic techniques and treadment modalities. To a large degree the public systems of other countries - which invest far less in research - are living off the research and innovation we deliver. When everyone enters the ant hill, innovation will largely stop.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 09:54 am
Tort Reform Brings Big Savings: NOT!!!!!!!!


Tort Reform: Show Us Results
Thursday, April 23rd, 2009

I wrote in the last post about costs to health care caused by “defensive medicine.” These are unnecessary tests and procedures ordered by doctors only because they fear medical malpractice suits. In theory, “defensive medicine” adds considerably to the overall cost of health care, and in theory, “tort reform” that caps malpractice awards should reduce this cost.

If you look, you can find no end of testimonials from doctors saying that their practices would be much less costly to patients and insurance companies if it weren’t for the threat of lawsuits. And I have to assume that these doctors believe what they are saying.

But the problem with the “defensive medicine” theory is that states that have passed “tort reform” laws haveno decreases in health care costs to show for it.

Jim Landers writes for the Dallas Morning News that since Texas passed tough tort reform laws in 2003, the costs of medical malpractice premiums paid by doctors have fallen by more than 30 percent. This indicates there is a real reduction in malpractice suits. However, Landers writes,

“But the cost of health care still is rising. Consumers are paying higher insurance premiums, which continue to escalate faster than earnings.

“And according to the Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy, Medicare spending in Texas rose 24 percent in the three years after the state capped malpractice awards. In Dallas, it went up 27 percent during the same period, 2003 to 2006.”

Some are saying it is too soon to see results from decreasing “defensive medicine” practices. But it has been six years since the most recent Texas tort reform policies became law.

Landers continues,

“A team at the University of Alabama looked into this last year. Their survey of studies related to malpractice insurance, defensive medicine and consumer health insurance premiums looked at 27 states with limits on non-economic damages, including Texas. …

“… Their conclusion " “Tort reforms have not led to health care cost savings for consumers” " was published in the December issue of Health Sciences Review.

“‘It’s had a really small effect, or else it doesn’t seem to change defensive medicine,’ said Michael Morrisey, a professor of health economics and health insurance and the director of the university’s Lister Hill Center for Health Policy.”

Landers also notes, “Families USA, a consumer advocate group in Washington, found health care premiums in Texas increased 86.8 percent from 2000 to 2007.”

In the upcoming fight in Washington to revise the nation’s health care policies, we’re going to hear over and over again that there’s nothin’ wrong with the health care system that a little tort reform won’t fix. And I fully expect that conservatives in Congress will insist on tort reform measures as a condition for their votes on any health care reform legislation.

As it is, politicians can say whatever they want about tort reform and get away with it, because no one challenges them. So the public is going to hear “tort reform reduces health care costs” over and over again. I think it is vital that we challenge any politician, lobbyist or pundit who makes claims about the cost reducing properties of tort reform to show us results. More than half of the states already have passed laws that cap punitive malpractice awards. If tort reform is such a cost saver, surely data from those states will show it.

“Tort reform” reaches into many areas of life beyond medical malpractice. It shields employers from responsibility for workplace injury and businesses from the consequences of faulty products. This is an issue critical for those suffering from mesosthelioma and other asbestos-related diseases and many others.

April 22, 2009
Barbara O’Brien
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 09:59 am
@Advocate,
This article takes apples and compares them to oranges. There is no context for the numbers (like comparing them to states who didn't implement TORT reform).

The article, while it may be correct, in NO WAY proves it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 10:17 am
@maporsche,
Quote:

Landers also notes, “Families USA, a consumer advocate group in Washington, found health care premiums in Texas increased 86.8 percent from 2000 to 2007.”


You don't have to compare to any other state to see Texas did NOT see significant drops in health care rate increases due to tort reform.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 10:22 am
@Cycloptichorn,
If the national average went up 150% during that same time frame...then I'd consider the Texas model to be a little better, you? Again, these numbers are all taken out of context...which usually means that the author is pushing some agenda.

Now, it's quite possible that the increases/decreases in either the national or the Texas model were not due to anything related to tort reform.....there is not enough data given from that "article".

I really wish I had the resources/time to dig into these numbers a little deeper. I just have to laugh and call out the absurdity of these "journalists" who publish the crap that Advocate likes to copy/paste here.

I'd get fired in a heartbeat from my job if my analysis was as shoddy.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 10:56 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think that for most Republicans, the dissonance on this issue stems from the divide that they inherently see in American society: two groups, Us (almost 100% white, middle-class to rich, predominantly male) and Them (everyone else). I'm sure statistics for the Us group would show rates which are comparable to any other country on the planet; and does the other group even really matter?


How so? Michael Moore could be described in your 'Us' group...he's white, rich and male. And yet his doctors would probably tell him that the most expensive health insurance plan and the finest health care facility in the world will likely not help him beat the life-expectancy average in the U.S. due to his poor cultural habits.

It's actually the Japanese who live the longest, including Japanese-Americans.
 

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