65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Debra Law
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 04:55 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The requirements to posess liability insurance are imposed by (some) states - not the federal government - as a condition for operating a motor vehicle on public roads.

There is no such analogous condition with respect to health care. Moreover, this interference by the Federal government cannot be rationalized by the interstate commerce clause - the only conceivable basis for such action by the Federal government in the constitution.


The legislative purpose of requiring drivers to have liability insurance is to ensure that that their victims have a pool of money to compensate them for their injuries. In the absence of a pool of money, it is foreseeable that these victims will become a burden on taxpayers.

SIMILARLY, in the absence of health insurance, it is foresseable that the victims of illness and disease will become a burden on taxpayers.

Under the tax and spending clause, the federal government subsidizes state welfare and medicaid programs. The federal government has a substantial interest in protecting its own purse by requiring uninsured persons to purchase insurance.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 05:15 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

FreeDuck, How does private insurance companies get tax monies?

Same way as the banks, I'd guess. But that's probably not what you meant.

Personally I'd prefer a tax to a mandate to purchase a product at an undetermined price.


I agree!

People who either cannot afford liability insurance or choose not to buy it for their motor vehicles are not fined. They are simply denied the privilege to drive their motor vehicles on our public roads. For many, there are alternatives available to them: riding a bike, walking, hitch-hiking, hiring public transportation, hiring private cabs, etc. The same is not true for those who are mandated to purchase health insurance. There is no alternative but to do as mandated by law or face a fine.

I would also prefer a single payer system (like medicare) for everyone funded through tax dollars rather than be subjected to a government mandate that we purchase a (nearly worthless) high-priced commodity from a private business. The mandate is a huge gift to private industry: forced customers. Nevertheless, I have not found a supportable basis (YET) for finding that the government mandate is unconstitutional.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 05:18 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

It isn't the Federal nature of the Senate bill that may be unconstitutional -- it is instead the specific requirement that individuals buy insurance and the provision of special fees/fines/taxes on those who fgail to comply. Arguably these requirements exceed the powers of the Federal government under the Interstate Commerce clause.


Arguably? Provide support!

0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 05:30 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Is this an argument analogous to United States v Lopez? Made perfect sense in that case.


As a general rule, so long as Congress places the necessary jurisdictional nexus language in the statute, the statute is constitutional under the commerce clause. After the Lopez court declared the Gun Free School Zones Act unconstitutional, Congress merely amended the Act and inserted the magic language (traveled in or otherwise affects interstate commerce) with respect to the firearm at issue -- and the statute was constitutional.

Congress, however, is not relying on the commerce clause. It's relying on the tax and spending for the general welfare clause to enact healthcare reform legislation.

See, e.g., HELVERING v. DAVIS, 301 U.S. 619 (1937)

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/301/619.html

EXCERPT:

Quote:
Congress may spend money in aid of the 'general welfare.' Constitution, art. 1, 8; United States v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 65 , 56 S. Ct. 312, 319, 102 A.L.R. 914. Steward Machine Co. v. Davis, supra. There have been great statesmen in our history who have stood for other views. We will not resurrect the contest. It is now settled by decision. United States v. Butler, supra. The conception of the spending power advocated by Hamilton and strongly reinforced by Story has prevailed over that of Madison, which has not been lacking in adherents. Yet difficulties are left when the power is conceded. The line must still be drawn between one welfare and another, between particular and general. Where this shall be placed cannot be known through a formula in advance of the event. There is a middle ground or certainly a penumbra in which discretion is at large. The discretion, however, is not confided to the courts. The discretion belongs to Congress, unless the choice is clearly wrong, a display of arbitrary power, not an exercise of judgment. This is now familiar law. [301 U.S. 619, 641] 'When such a contention comes here we naturally require a showing that by no reasonable possibility can the challenged legislation fall within the wide range of discretion permitted to the Congress.' United States v. Butler, supra, 297 U.S. 1 , at page 67, 56 S.Ct. 312, 320, 102 A.L.R. 914. Cf. Cincinnati Soap Co. v. United States, 301 U.S. 308 , 57 S.Ct. 764, 81 L.Ed. --, May 3, 1937; United States v. Realty Co., 163 U.S. 427, 440 , 16 S.Ct. 1120; Head Money Cases, 112 U.S. 580, 595 , 5 S.Ct. 247. Nor is the concept of the general welfare static. Needs that were narrow or parochial a century ago may be interwoven in our day with the well-being of the nation. What is critical or urgent changes with the times.

The purge of nation-wide calamity that began in 1929 has taught us many lessons. Not the least is the solidarity of interests that may once have seemed to be divided. Unemployment spreads from state to state, the hinterland now settled that in pioneer days gave an avenue of escape. Home Building & Loan Association v. Blaisdell, 290 U.S. 398, 442 , 54 S.Ct. 231, 241, 88 A.L.R. 1481. Spreading from state to state, unemployment is an ill not particular but general, which may be checked, if Congress so determines, by the resources of the nation. If this can have been doubtful until now, our ruling today in the case of the Steward Machine Co., supra, has set the doubt at rest. But the ill is all one or at least not greatly different whether men are thrown out of work because there is no longer work to do or because the disabilities of age make them incapable of doing it. Rescue becomes necessary irrespective of the cause. The hope behind this statute is to save men and women from the rigors of the poor house as well as from the haunting fear that such a lot awaits them when journey's end is near.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 05:34 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Yes. There was an interesting op-ed in the WSJ on Saturday that addressed exactly this point and this case. The key finding in this and other cases is that the Federal action in question goes beyond what is required under the ICC clause. Additional issues surround the question of selective Federal fines/fees/taxes on those who choose not to purchase health insurance. The Supreme court has separately found that such selective fines/fees/taxes themselves exceed the limitations of power under the basic terms of the constitution.


There is nothing SELECTIVE about the proposed mandate. The government isn't targeting the employees of Wal-Mart. The government is targeting everyone (except illegal immigrants). ALL citizens are required to purchase insurance. Those who can't afford to comply with the mandate are subsidized by the government. Only those who do NOT comply with the mandate are fined.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 05:47 pm
Lets make this real simple.

Everyone gets the same health care system that congress and the President gets.

Problem solved.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 06:34 pm
@mysteryman,
Same old question; who pays?

Of course, we could let them have the same health care as Medicare, except of course, the rest of us don't get to pass laws.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 06:41 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra wrote:
Quote:
SIMILARLY, in the absence of health insurance, it is foreseeable that the victims of illness and disease will become a burden on taxpayers.


I agree with this, and wish to also add the fact that those who refuse to buy insurance - even with subsidies from the government - really don't have a leg to stand on for not having insurance. Their refusal to buy health insurance doesn't relieve the rest of us who have insurance from picking up the cost for their care.

I also found something very interesting; the income tax rate for Massachusetts is fixed at 15.3% for all income levels, while in California the tax rate ranges from 1% for those making up to $7,168 to 10.3% for those making over $1,000,000, and it's 8% for those making between $37,234 and $47,055, and our state has had fiscal problems for several decades (if not longer).
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2009 06:45 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Perhaps you should review the following concepts:

procedural due process
substantive due process
punitive measure
remedial measure

Although fining people for their failure to purchase health insurance might be unconstitutional -- and that subject is worthy of discussion -- I believe you are traveling the wrong path when you allege that the fine constitutes punishment without due process. You are simply stating a conclusion without providing any support for your conclusion.


OK. Thanks for that. I guess my reasoning is as follows: if the Federal government can assess a fine or a tax or a penalty concerning an economic choice, such as the purchase of health insurance that I might make, then it has the power or potential to so limit any other economic choice I might make - home, automobile, clothing, investments, etc. In general the powers of the Federal government, unlike the rights of citizens, are specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

I can understand your point about substantive due process, but what gives the Federal government the right to create such statutory requirements onm issues so far removed from interstate commerce?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:31 am
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

High Seas wrote:

Is this an argument analogous to United States v Lopez? Made perfect sense in that case.

..........Congress, however, is not relying on the commerce clause. It's relying on the tax and spending for the general welfare clause to enact healthcare reform legislation. .....


Thank you, but as your very reference indicates >
Quote:
Congress may spend money in aid of the 'general welfare.' Constitution, art. 1, 8; ...

> Congress may SPEND money. It's a spending clause, not, as you say, a "tax and spending" clause. And as Cardozo makes it clear, concepts of whose welfare, what for, and so on, vary greatly over time. Generally I'm with that appeals court, the dissenting justices, and with Madison - though that issue has long been settled. In the issue facing us now the fact remains the welfare clause only addresses spending, not additional taxing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:48 am
@High Seas,
High Seas, Congress also has the authority to collect taxes. It's the failure of our government to spend more than revenue that continues to increase the deficit; that is irresponsible fiscal management.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:51 am
@cicerone imposter,
For years I've been writing that those gigantic entitlement programs will bankrupt the nation unless we take prompt action. The absolutely last thing we need to do is create yet another one. As to the tax power of congress, of course it exists, but not in the article of the constitution cited in the court decision we're discussing - see link kindly posted by Debra.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 10:56 am
@High Seas,
I've been questioning the cost of ObamaCare; where have you been?

The general welfare clause provides congress with enough authority to tax.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:14 am
@cicerone imposter,
Where, exactly, does the welfare clause mention taxation? Please quote directly.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:15 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Where, exactly, does the welfare clause mention taxation? Please quote directly.


They don't have to be linked. Congress can raise taxes for any ol' reason it pleases.

Cycloptichorn
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:22 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The issue here is the welfare clause. Cicerone claims to have discovered Congressional powers of taxation in it, and so does Debra's wording.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:24 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

The issue here is the welfare clause. Cicerone claims to have discovered Congressional powers of taxation in it, and so does Debra's wording.


Well, that's neither here nor there when it comes to Congress' ability to raise taxation to cover things spent under the General welfare clause. As I'm sure you know.

Far be it from me, however, to tell someone not to pursue points of minutae, as I've spent enough time doing it myself.

Cycloptichorn
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:27 am
@Cycloptichorn,
It's not minutiae, it goes to the heart of the constitutionality argument - read Debra's post and my reply to see why, and read George OB's reasons for also believing that the health care insurance forced mandate is unconstitutional.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:34 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

It's not minutiae, it goes to the heart of the constitutionality argument - read Debra's post and my reply to see why, and read George OB's reasons for also believing that the health care insurance forced mandate is unconstitutional.


George wrote:

Quote:

OK. Thanks for that. I guess my reasoning is as follows: if the Federal government can assess a fine or a tax or a penalty concerning an economic choice, such as the purchase of health insurance that I might make, then it has the power or potential to so limit any other economic choice I might make - home, automobile, clothing, investments, etc. In general the powers of the Federal government, unlike the rights of citizens, are specifically enumerated in the Constitution.


I guess I didn't understand his objection, for it is perfectly clear that the Federal government already limits most economic choices people can make, through regulation. We have federal regulations governing all of those categories of purchase.

I haven't seen any persuasive argument that any of the limits or regulations that the Feds put on these purchases are in any way unconstitutional.

Additionally, I do not believe that 'how we are going to pay' for a program has ever really been a persuasive measurement of whether or not something is constitutional, as we have passed uncounted programs with no specific plans for paying for them, just passing the buck along to the general deficit. This is hardly any different.

Cycloptichorn

High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Sep, 2009 11:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

High Seas wrote:

It's not minutiae, it goes to the heart of the constitutionality argument - read Debra's post and my reply to see why, and read George OB's reasons for also believing that the health care insurance forced mandate is unconstitutional.


George wrote:...

You're looking at a different post, Cycl, George OB's constitutional objection is a couple of pages back: http://able2know.org/topic/89938-226#post-3764810
 

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