65
   

IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

 
 
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 11:20 am
@spendius,
Same as life insurance and car insurance, I suppose.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 11:45 am
@Yankee,
No. As a matter of fact, our car insurance premiums have almost stayed the same or have decreased (our agent just informed us that our car premiums are dropping about $10 every six months), and many ads now on tv shows you can save on car insurance by about $300/year.

As for life insurance, I'm not familiar with it because I never believed in "life insurance."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 12:59 pm
@Yankee,
Quote:
Same as life insurance and car insurance, I suppose.


Obviously. Same as any betting process. Insurance is betting.

I actually think you are saddled with a ridiculous system. To be consistent you ought to let anybody practice medicine and let the buyer beware. You have a socialist supply side and a capitalist demand side.

You are not answering to the main points I am making Gov. I'm used to that on the evolution argument threads but I'm a bit surprised you doing it.

If you had a National Health Service as most European countries do you might not be so competitive in other areas. Care to discuss that in terms of human rights issues? It follows that this debate will be a filibuster job. You have nobody who can shout "Just ******* do it". The reason our minister did that was a Gordian knot solution.

I seem to remember that Mrs Clinton had a go during the first term and had to be gently led away amid a fanfare of diminuendo lamb bleatings.

What would it take to have a Secretary of State for Health who could shout "Just ******* do it!!". Loud and banging his fist on the desk so hard some of the slates on the roof were dislodged. And standing up and answering to the chaos that followed.

Every woman over 25 in the country immediately applied for spectacles. Two pairs--one for reading and one for bringing the washing in. And the poor still die quicker. I brought somebody home from hospital in a free wheelchair a few years back because she was unsteady on her feet. She didn't take the chair back for nine months.

Well-- that's what an amateur outside observer thinks it will take. But arguing about it is quite profitable as well. I know that insurance men haven't signed any Hippocratic Oaths. Nor the lobbyists you mentioned. Our Minister was concerned with people's health and with nothing else and I have met people whose tear glands are stimulated at the mention of his name.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 01:20 pm
@spendius,
Not only that but the insurance companies are spending 1.2 million every day on tv ads to tell lies about the health plan; to scare the majority to believe a) they won't have any choice of plans or doctors, and b) the government will take over the health care industry.

Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 01:32 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
If you had a National Health Service as most European countries do you might not be so competitive in other areas.


I do not believe the American system is ready to scrap the free enterprise system and rebuild it immediately into a socialized system.

Insurance companies compete for the business as any business does. Pharmaceutical companies compete for research and develop of the next great "pill". Hospitals, Nursing Homes the same.

90% of workers are quite satisfied with the present system but 100% agree costs are escalating and that needs to be addressed.

What I would like to see happen is for the present system to be fixed, not re-built, like the SCARE MONGERING LIBERALS want to do.

What folks like CC and others want is to scrap a very effective system of health care to accommodate the 10%. That is illogical, but they will never admit that.

The present plans I have read or heard about will reduce the level of coverage for the 90% and will increase cost to accommodate the 10%.

I do not want to start comparing our system to the European system since I do not know much about it, nor is it relevant to the American discussion.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 01:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
But isn't the matter at hand that the government take over the health care industry. Is that a bogeyman?

It can do a great deal for women's rights. And other militant minority rights. And I've already heard one senior commentator from the US mention Mr Obama having to sleep in the spare room.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 01:41 pm
@Yankee,
Yankee, What makes you believe that the Europeans scrapped their free enterprise system and have become socialistic? Please explain in detail.
They all pay income taxes; that's not socialism by any stretch of the imagination!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:11 pm
@Yankee,
Quote:
I do not believe the American system is ready to scrap the free enterprise system and rebuild it immediately into a socialized system.


Neither do I. I was at pains before to suggest it can't.

Quote:
Insurance companies compete for the business as any business does. Pharmaceutical companies compete for research and develop of the next great "pill". Hospitals, Nursing Homes the same.


Everybody knows that Gov. It's padding. I'm researching the American psyche and I must say you are very typical.

Quote:
90% of workers are quite satisfied with the present system but 100% agree costs are escalating and that needs to be addressed.


That's padding too. It's begs too many questions.

Quote:
What I would like to see happen is for the present system to be fixed, not re-built, like the SCARE MONGERING LIBERALS want to do.


There's no need to shout. I can read. They have a case. It isn't answered like that. And it meant nothing.

Quote:
What folks like CC and others want is to scrap a very effective system of health care to accommodate the 10%. That is illogical, but they will never admit that.


It's not illogical if stories about the 10% upset them. And cost them. A lot of the good things we have can be spoiled by being upset. Okay- they are lily-livered wets but there you are. Such people have delivered all the social welfare improvements over the years. They might not feel like they live in a civilsed country when they hear some of the tales about the 10%. They might well think that a small sacrifice by the 90% is worth it. When a song like Only A Hobo comes over the airwaves.

Quote:
The present plans I have read or heard about will reduce the level of coverage for the 90% and will increase cost to accommodate the 10%.


Padding.

Quote:
I do not want to start comparing our system to the European system since I do not know much about it, nor is it relevant to the American discussion.


It is relevant in the sense that its start up showed the only way to do it and if others liked how it turned out they might have to follow the method (easier second time) or think up something similar. But nobody ever suggested any other way how to cut the Gordian knot than the one that was mythologically employed.

You are still side-stepping the main points.

Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:15 pm
@spendius,
Well, then re-state you "points" that I am not addressing.

panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:20 pm
If this topic has been addressed...I apologize.
I've been bombarded by e mails about this guy Peter Fleckstein(sp)
http://blog.flecksoflife.com/
and his careful scrutiny of the reform bill. What's puzzling me is that when you google his points there are NO counter arguments...what's going on?

Quote:
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill " HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.


You kidding me?

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:21 pm
@Yankee,
Yes, you did, because you were responding to spendi.

Here's the cut and paste:
Quote:
Re: spendius (Post 3719325)
Quote:

If you had a National Health Service as most European countries do you might not be so competitive in other areas.



You wrote:
Quote:
I do not believe the American system is ready to scrap the free enterprise system and rebuild it immediately into a socialized system.


How can our country become a "socialized system" because all European countries have an income tax. Your's is a throw away statement without any valid purpose or reason than to express your misguided idea that our country will revert to socialism based on any universal health care system.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:22 pm
@Yankee,
What happened to your post to CI?

Quote:
Re: cicerone imposter (Post 3719365)
I made no reference to that you lunatic.

Youare becoming a pest and need to be slapped away.


His heart's in the right place. You'll get used to him. He's just a bit naive and misguided.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:24 pm
@spendius,
spendi, You can't just make any opinion without any proof that
Quote:
He's just a bit naive and misguided.


You have to show how and when I'm "naive and misguided."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:25 pm
@Yankee,
Quote:
Well, then re-state you "points" that I am not addressing.


I can't now. The maid's running my bath. And then I have to go to the pub.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:26 pm
@spendius,
spendi, At least you have your priorities right! LOL
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Thanks ci for highlighting my profundity--"If you had a National Health Service as most European countries do you might not be so competitive in other areas."

The NHS is a millstone but it is one we accept and with mass gratitude.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 02:32 pm
@spendius,
You betcha; our country is having customer remorse before we get it done for the same reasons most people don't understand the benefits while listening to all the fear-mongering of the insurance industry. They're spending 1.2 million every day to fill our heads with lies and misinformation.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 03:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Guess who's trying to defeat our universal health plan?

Quote:
Familiar Players in Health Bill Lobbying
Firms Are Enlisting Ex-Lawmakers, Aides
Former House majority leader Richard K. Armey, left, is one of several ex-congressmen working on behalf of health-care companies as a Senate committee considers legislation. Armey represents a New Jersey pharmaceutical firm.
. (By Danny Johnston -- Associated Press)

By Dan Eggen and Kimberly Kindy
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, July 6, 2009

The nation's largest insurers, hospitals and medical groups have hired more than 350 former government staff members and retired members of Congress in hopes of influencing their old bosses and colleagues, according to an analysis of lobbying disclosures and other records.


The tactic is so widespread that three of every four major health-care firms have at least one former insider on their lobbying payrolls, according to The Washington Post's analysis.

Nearly half of the insiders previously worked for the key committees and lawmakers, including Sens. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), debating whether to adopt a public insurance option opposed by major industry groups. At least 10 others have been members of Congress, such as former House majority leaders Richard K. Armey (R-Tex.) and Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.), both of whom represent a New Jersey pharmaceutical firm.

The hirings are part of a record-breaking influence campaign by the health-care industry, which is spending more than $1.4 million a day on lobbying in the current fight, according to disclosure records. And even in a city where lobbying is a part of life, the scale of the effort has drawn attention. For example, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) doubled its spending to nearly $7 million in the first quarter of 2009, followed by Pfizer, with more than $6 million.

The push has reunited many who worked together in government on health-care reform, but are now employed as advocates for pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

A June 10 meeting between aides to Baucus, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, and health-care lobbyists included two former Baucus chiefs of staff: David Castagnetti, whose clients include PhRMA and America's Health Insurance Plans, and Jeffrey A. Forbes, who represents PhRMA, Amgen, Genentech, Merck and others. Castagnetti did not return a telephone call; Forbes declined to comment.

Also inside the closed committee hearing room that day was Richard Tarplin, a veteran of both the Department of Health and Human Services and the Senate, where he worked for Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.), one of the leaders in fashioning reform legislation this year. Tarplin now represents the American Medical Association as head of his own lobbying firm, Tarplin Strategies.

"For people like me who are on the outside and used to be on the inside, this is great, because there is a level of trust in these relationships, and I know the policy rationale that is required," Tarplin said in explaining the benefits of having government experience.

But public interest groups and reform advocates complain that the concentration of former government aides on K Street has distorted the health-care debate, and that it further illustrates the problem posed by the "revolving door" between government and private firms.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 05:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Gird your loins ci. We will have to get our act together to defeat that lot.

The Good Samaritan is the place to start. That all human life is special and not a business proposition.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 06:02 pm
@spendius,
Well said, spendi. People want to equate health care with wealth rather than a public interest which helps everybody in the country. There isn't any better way for the government to provide one of their many services that includes education and security; they're all related one way or another.
0 Replies
 
 

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