IT'S TIME FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE

USAFHokie80 wrote:

if their house is at the median price then they are obviously not poor. i thought that was pretty easy to understand. so, do you know that they get financial aid? i didn't see that in any of the material. if the schools are so bad and their house so expensive, they could move. there are cheaper places with better school all over.

how is *your side* not about "more stuff" ? if medical insurance was really that important to them and they were having such a hard time, they could make choices NOW to correct that. but, they want their big house and their nice schools. before i was born, both of my parents lost their job. they had my two sisters to take care of, and their 40K house. my dad sold all of his tools (which was a lot) and nearly everything else just to make ends meet until they could get back on their feet. there is no reason they couldn't do the same.

insurance is expensive - it's a business. i notice you didn't say anything about the article i referenced earlier.

and maybe they shouldn't have had 4 kids if things were so difficult. maybe they shouldn't live in one of the wealthiest areas of the country. they could move out to west MD and it would be significantly cheaper.

Baltimore, as one of the 'wealthiest areas in the country?'

Are you joking??!!?

Yeah, you're right, everything is always everyone's fault and nobody should be asked to help anyone else out ever, as that wouldn't be fair. I mean, these people could quit their jobs and move somewhere else if they can't afford health insurance which has risen 50% or more in price. Right? They should just give up their whole life and everything.

I'm going to be thinking of you when we raise taxes in the future, hoping that you're angry it's happening. Honestly. It's ridiculous that you would want other people to go through the same struggles your parents had to go through, so that people like you can have that new car they wanted. Wouldn't it have been better for your family if your parents hadn't had to to that stuff?

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:

if their house is at the median price then they are obviously not poor. i thought that was pretty easy to understand. so, do you know that they get financial aid? i didn't see that in any of the material. if the schools are so bad and their house so expensive, they could move. there are cheaper places with better school all over.

how is *your side* not about "more stuff" ? if medical insurance was really that important to them and they were having such a hard time, they could make choices NOW to correct that. but, they want their big house and their nice schools. before i was born, both of my parents lost their job. they had my two sisters to take care of, and their 40K house. my dad sold all of his tools (which was a lot) and nearly everything else just to make ends meet until they could get back on their feet. there is no reason they couldn't do the same.

insurance is expensive - it's a business. i notice you didn't say anything about the article i referenced earlier.

and maybe they shouldn't have had 4 kids if things were so difficult. maybe they shouldn't live in one of the wealthiest areas of the country. they could move out to west MD and it would be significantly cheaper.

Baltimore, as one of the 'wealthiest areas in the country?'

Are you joking??!!?

Yeah, you're right, everything is always everyone's fault and nobody should be asked to help anyone else out ever, as that wouldn't be fair. I mean, these people could quit their jobs and move somewhere else if they can't afford health insurance which has risen 50% or more in price. Right? They should just give up their whole life and everything.

I'm going to be thinking of you when we raise taxes in the future, hoping that you're angry it's happening. Honestly. It's ridiculous that you would want other people to go through the same struggles your parents had to go through, so that people like you can have that new car they wanted. Wouldn't it have been better for your family if your parents hadn't had to to that stuff?

Cycloptichorn

The DC metro are is one of the wealthiest areas. Hold on... what "happened to them" that isn't their fault? Did I miss something? I don't remember reading that any sort of tragedy befell them. It IS their fault they have 4 kids and only have 45k/year (but i be that doesn't count their total income). It IS their fault they spend $$$ on tuition for private schools. And maybe you missed the part about them not really having any jobs to quit. Maybe the father could GET a job. He could also get a second job. My father did. So did my mom.

Sure it would have been better. My point is that they had to make sacrifices. They didn't rely on everyone else to do things for them. People have gotten LAZY and they just want society to pay for their mistakes. No one prospers by having everything given to them.

1) Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year.

2) His sister Gemma attends another private school to help her with the brain injuries that occurred do to her accident. The school costs $23,000 a year, but the state pays the entire cost.

3) They bought their "lavish house" sixteen years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less than safe.

4) Last year, the Frost's made $45,000 combined. Over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined.

5) The state of Maryland has found them eligible to participate in the CHIP program.

Cyclo,

Interestingly the "worst public schools in the nation", as you accurately described the Washington DC school system, also enjoys the highest per capita school budget in the nation and the largest per capita Federal government subsidies.

This can be taken as a warning about the sometimes perverse effects on performance of government subsidies and the dilution of individual responsibilities.

I'm not saying that all social problems should be solved without government programs or some form of income rediustribution. However, I am suggesting that these things do bring some adverse side effects that can, in some circumstances (the DC schools are a good example) , wipe out any net social gains produced.

I agree with you that competent management is as important as throwing money at a problem. I disagree with you that competent management is impossible in a governmental setting.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I agree with you that competent management is as important as throwing money at a problem. I disagree with you that competent management is impossible in a governmental setting.

Cycloptichorn

How much experience do you have with government management? or the management of independent economic enterprises?

I have been around both for a long time. While competence and indeed excellence in the management of government organizations is certainly not impossible, it is exceedingly rare. In the commercial world the relentless built-in economic forces will fairly quickly wipe out any inefficient or ineffective organization. Such forces don't exist in government. In addition, by its nature, government attempts to be fair and governed by declared processes, as opposed to effective and efficient. In business it is the opposite.

Well, the cold and hard blade of efficiency isn't healthy for society, in that it tends to leave a large percentage of people high and dry.
I have enough experience to know that my personal gov't-ran education wasn't lacking; so it isn't impossible to do. I know many others who got quality educations from public schools.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, the cold and hard blade of efficiency isn't healthy for society, in that it tends to leave a large percentage of people high and dry.
I have enough experience to know that my personal gov't-ran education wasn't lacking; so it isn't impossible to do. I know many others who got quality educations from public schools.

Cycloptichorn

Neither (to use your metaphor) is the dull, blunt blade of socialism which produces only shortages of shoddy goods and services - leaving everyone equally high and dry ( and on average higher and dryer).
.

Your experience in public schools is, by all the available data, hardly typical. Where meaningful comparative data is available the results clearly show a decided advantage for private education in terms of both cost and performance.

In other areas, such as production of goods and services the differences are even more stark.

The writer of the piece checked in with the fam for more info -

Quote:

1) Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year.

2) His sister Gemma attends another private school to help her with the brain injuries that occurred do to her accident. The school costs $23,000 a year, but the state pays the entire cost.

3) They bought their "lavish house" sixteen years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less than safe.

4) Last year, the Frost's made $45,000 combined. Over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined.

5) The state of Maryland has found them eligible to participate in the CHIP program.

These folks are hardly middle class, let alone rich. They probably have a considerable amount of debt just to get by. Not that this stops you guys from complaining about helping their kids out.

Cycloptichorn

Is it not obvious that the system which works the best will have aspects of both the capitalist and socialist economic theories?

Cycloptichorn

Is it not obvious that the system which works the best will have aspects of both the capitalist and socialist economic theories?

Cycloptichorn

.... blaming Bush for everything.

After all, pure socialism or communism is an absolute bust, while capitalism is what built the U.S. into the strongest and most robust economy in the world.

If you are talking about Social Security, cyclops, as the socialistic element, I doubt you could prove that had anything much to do with the U.S. rise to prominence. By the time FDR got it started, we were already almost there, and the drain on our treasury had not begun in earnest for 30 or 40 years. We are now seeing a bigger and bigger drain on the country because of socialistic entitlement programs, namely social security and medicare, which have the philosophy of spend now....pay later, and it is my opinion that the country is just about at the pinnacle and may have passed it. If I should be more optimistic, I would like to know it and would gladly admit I am wrong.