Minimum Wage

Do either of you realize there are more gainfully employed illegals in this country than there are unemployed?

And you're wrong about voting, Butterfly; lot's of illegals vote. Chueka's or bogus papers cost little more than the real thing, most illegals have them, and lots and lots of Democrat controlled States refuse to tighten up the polls to the point where they can't use them... including my beloved Wisconsin. :wink:

Raising minimum wage could, theoretically reduce the number of available jobs (including those worked by illegals) to the number of unemployed, but your living in fantasy land if you think all those people are going to go get those jobs for $7.50 an hour.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Having employed LOTS of immigrants, NONE for minimum wage, I can tell you that basic sustenance tends to turn them on, but human nature takes over and they want more... just like anyone else, only, as a group... seem to more readily willing to EARN it. Your barking up the wrong tree for bigoted blather.

Well, well, your stock just took a plummet. If you can't run your business with legals, I would say you should get another line of work. Calling my comments "bigoted blather" is an insult to not only me, but all law abiding Americans that pay for your illegal hiring practices. I would say you or your company deserves large fines, and if caught more than once, you should be sitting in jail instead of wasting your time on this forum.

I have no personal problems with people that want to work, and do it legally. I am in favor of very liberal legal immigration for people that want to work and be good citizens, including from Mexico, but the people need to be properly processed into the system so that they are paying their fair share into the tax system, social security, medicare, etc. Unfortunately along with those types, we also have drug runners and many others here that simply are here to milk the system. Don't say it isn't happening in a big way, as I am personally acquainted with areas where such problems are so serious that the social structure is breaking down.

Quote:

There is truth here... but you discount the fact that even minor clamping down on immigrants results in oranges rotting on the tree. That's not terrific for the economy either. Lotta work moving unpicked fruit and veggies not being performed for lack of fruits and veggies.:wink:

Great example of people loving the practice of hiring people at substandard wages. If the labor pool willing to do this work was reduced, the farmers would be forced to pay more decent wages to get the work done. Also, such would drive the possible development of more automated methods for some types of work.

Alot of this pressure to hire illegals is driven by competition. If you run construction jobs and your competitor is hiring illegals, you need to do the same to win any bids for jobs. However, if the law would clamp down on the practice, most companies would be more than happy to pay higher wages as long as their competition is having to do the same, and the playing field is level for everybody.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Do either of you realize there are more gainfully employed illegals in this country than there are unemployed?

And you're wrong about voting, Butterfly; lot's of illegals vote. Chueka's or bogus papers cost little more than the real thing, most illegals have them, and lots and lots of Democrat controlled States refuse to tighten up the polls to the point where they can't use them... including my beloved Wisconsin. :wink:

Raising minimum wage could, theoretically reduce the number of available jobs (including those worked by illegals) to the number of unemployed, but your living in fantasy land if you think all those people are going to go get those jobs for $7.50 an hour.

I fully realize most illegals are here to work, but if 20% are not, it is a significant problem, and if the working legals are not fully participating in the legal system of supporting social security, medicare, and other taxes, and are not fully insured medically and for vehicles and so forth, it places a burden on everybody else. I don't know what the percentage is, but I think it is very significant, especially in some areas.

OCCOM BILL, the comment about "bigoted blather" was hitting below the belt. I thought you were better than that. I've live in hispanic areas, and have gotten along fine, with friends in those areas. New Mexico is virtually run by hispanics, and most long standing citizens that I know also favor better enforcement against illegals. Good grief, we are a nation of laws, and if we are going to ignore enforcing laws, we might as well hang it up now. This argument is so bizarre, I have to wonder if I am watching the "Twilight Zone" when I hear some of the opinions defending your sorry attitudes and ideas in regard to this.

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okie wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Having employed LOTS of immigrants, NONE for minimum wage, I can tell you that basic sustenance tends to turn them on, but human nature takes over and they want more... just like anyone else, only, as a group... seem to more readily willing to EARN it. Your barking up the wrong tree for bigoted blather.

Well, well, your stock just took a plummet. If you can't run your business with legals, I would say you should get another line of work. Calling my comments "bigoted blather" is an insult to not only me, but all law abiding Americans that pay for your illegal hiring practices. I would say you or your company deserves large fines, and if caught more than once, you should be sitting in jail instead of wasting your time on this forum.

Don't want to get too far from the term bigot, do you. Where in my post did you see anything about me hiring illegals? And I've never employed a single soul that didn't pay taxes. You'd probably sh!t yourself if you had to pay as much as my efforts contributed to the Tax system last year. Hell, I'd be tickled pink if I got half what the Tax man made off of me.

okie wrote:

Quote:
There is truth here... but you discount the fact that even minor clamping down on immigrants results in oranges rotting on the tree. That's not terrific for the economy either. Lotta work moving unpicked fruit and veggies not being performed for lack of fruits and veggies.:wink:

Great example of people loving the practice of hiring people at substandard wages. If the labor pool willing to do this work was reduced, the farmers would be forced to pay more decent wages to get the work done. Also, such would drive the possible development of more automated methods for some types of work.

Spoken from pure simple ignorance. I guess you never realized that there's competition in farming, too? Or that supply and demand works both ways? And do you know what the average orange picker earns per hour? Obviously not.

okie wrote:

Alot of this pressure to hire illegals is driven by competition. If you run construction jobs and your competitor is hiring illegals, you need to do the same to win any bids for jobs. However, if the law would clamp down on the practice, most companies would be more than happy to pay higher wages as long as their competition is having to do the same, and the playing field is level for everybody.

And how much does your average construction man make, legal or otherwise? We can continue this conversation when you get a clue what the hell you're talking about, instead of sloppily distorting the idiotic babble you pick up listening to morons on talk radio.

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You know how it is cousin Bill. It's difficult to tell them legals from the illegals just by looking at 'em. Kinda like us in the Ratzenhofer clan. Much easier to just lump 'em all together and give 'em all an illegal label. And illegals rolls off the tongue so much easier than legals.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

okie wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Having employed LOTS of immigrants, NONE for minimum wage, I can tell you that basic sustenance tends to turn them on, but human nature takes over and they want more... just like anyone else, only, as a group... seem to more readily willing to EARN it. Your barking up the wrong tree for bigoted blather.

Well, well, your stock just took a plummet. If you can't run your business with legals, I would say you should get another line of work. Calling my comments "bigoted blather" is an insult to not only me, but all law abiding Americans that pay for your illegal hiring practices. I would say you or your company deserves large fines, and if caught more than once, you should be sitting in jail instead of wasting your time on this forum.
Don't want to get too far from the term bigot, do you. Where in my post did you see anything about me hiring illegals? And I've never employed a single soul that didn't pay taxes. You'd probably sh!t yourself if you had to pay as much as my efforts contributed to the Tax system last year. Hell, I'd be tickled pink if I got half what the Tax man made off of me.

My apologies. You said you hired many immigrants, and in a previous post, you mentioned how easy it was to obtain false papers, so I put 2 and 2 together and got the definite drift that you knew your hires likely included many illegals. I think that is probably the case, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt if you insist on denying it now. Also, you have no idea of the taxes I pay, and I pay more than enough, for somebody not independantly wealthy.

Quote:

okie wrote:
Quote:
There is truth here... but you discount the fact that even minor clamping down on immigrants results in oranges rotting on the tree. That's not terrific for the economy either. Lotta work moving unpicked fruit and veggies not being performed for lack of fruits and veggies.:wink:

Great example of people loving the practice of hiring people at substandard wages. If the labor pool willing to do this work was reduced, the farmers would be forced to pay more decent wages to get the work done. Also, such would drive the possible development of more automated methods for some types of work.
Spoken from pure simple ignorance. I guess you never realized that there's competition in farming, too? Or that supply and demand works both ways? And do you know what the average orange picker earns per hour? Obviously not.

I grew up a farmer, and know many farmers now, none of which hire illegals. I am fully aware of competition. Supply and demand does work both ways, but if you can't run a farm without hiring illegals, you should find another line of work. By the way, what has happened with the work programs for people with green cards? I don't know what the average orange picker earns per hour. I would guess it is above minimum wage, but not far above?

Quote:

okie wrote:
Alot of this pressure to hire illegals is driven by competition. If you run construction jobs and your competitor is hiring illegals, you need to do the same to win any bids for jobs. However, if the law would clamp down on the practice, most companies would be more than happy to pay higher wages as long as their competition is having to do the same, and the playing field is level for everybody.
And how much does your average construction man make, legal or otherwise? We can continue this conversation when you get a clue what the hell you're talking about, instead of sloppily distorting the idiotic babble you pick up listening to morons on talk radio.

[/quote]
Construction hands make above minimum wage, substantially above minimum wage for some types of construction work. For some types of construction work, lets take roofers for example, they would have to pay more if they did not hire illegals, especially in some areas.

It is a fact that the hiring of illegals pulls down the wage that would otherwise need to be paid to some jobs in some areas. So the fact remains that raising the minimum wage, while doing nothing about the illegal problem is inconsistent and hypocritical.

Paul Harvey reported the other day that 1 of every 5 babies born in California recently was by illegals. Obviously, this places a huge burden on the infrastructure supported by taxpaying citizens if many or most of those are uninsured medically. Only the blind do not see the huge impacts of this problem all over the country.

I think the government and the employers in this country are as much or more to blame than the people that are coming here. How do you blame people for wanting a better life, and see that the government is not enforcing the law, so they follow the crowd here? The people we elect take an oath to uphold the law, and they have utterly failed in this regard.

Have the decency of arguing the points instead of resorting to accusations of idiotic babble and listening to morons on talk radio.

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okie wrote:

Have the decency of arguing the points instead of resorting to accusations of idiotic babble and listening to morons on talk radio.

I can ill imagine another source for some of your "points" as few mediums distort the truth to such a ridiculous degree. Where did you get the impression illegals tend to work for less than minimum wage?

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OBill, I think this is a good question, but with no easy answers. There are too many variables in trying to tie down the pros and cons of minimum wage.

Many states have higher minimum wage than the federal minimum wage. Those states that have higher minimum wages do not necessarily have higher unemployment rates.

Access to food stamps and medical care for most minimum wage earners are almost guaranteed; although food stamps and some social benefits may be time-limited.

Here in Santa Clara County, all children have universal health insurance by law. Our unemployment rate is 4.5 percent, one of the lowest in the US. We have many California minimum wage jobs (currently at $6.75 - I think), and I know some families work more than one full-time job to make ends meet in this high cost of living county.

There is also the question of "who" are the minimum wage earners in our community, and why?

What is a "fair minimum wage?"

Why do some employers, both large and small, provide health insurance and other employee benefits while others do not?

Not all skill levels and professions are "paid the same." Not all medical doctors, lawyers and college professors earn similar income; not by city, county, state or country.

What should the minimum wage be for the country or state by state - or even smaller districts?

I personally believe some minimum wage standards should be established by our government - whether it be the state and/or federal level. This conclusion is based on the simple fact that without some advocates for the minimum wage earner, they will continue to fall further behind while inflation continues its upward climb.

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The "cost of living" varies so drastically from place to place; it is naïve to think the Federal Government can set an effective minimum, beyond an absolute floor for work in general. An arbitrary minimum wage may be low enough to be completely irrelevant in one locale, while devastating business in another. Even those who seek government regulation should realize this and seek a cure on a more local level. The necessary wage for economic stability is simply too relative to where you live to solve anything from a Federal level.

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okie wrote:

Great example of people loving the practice of hiring people at substandard wages. If the labor pool willing to do this work was reduced, the farmers would be forced to pay more decent wages to get the work done.

I agree it would force them to pay higher wages, or to refrain from hiring at all. You and I probably disagree about whether this is "more decent" than the status quo.

okie wrote:

Also, such would drive the possible development of more automated methods for some types of work.

You appear to consider this a good thing. If you do, I don't understand it. What advantage do unskilled workers get from losing their jobs to machines rather than to immigrants?

okie wrote:

By the way, what has happened with the work programs for people with green cards?

What work programs for people with green cards?

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So, why don't we just raise the minimum wage to about $25 an hour, and then there will be no more poverty? Yes, that's sarcasm.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

So, why don't we just raise the minimum wage to about $25 an hour, and then there will be no more poverty? Yes, that's sarcasm.

Because the overall cost to workers from disemployment would exceed the overall benefit to workers from rising wages. The same is not necessarily true for more modest wage floors -- which is why some rational people can approve of some sufficiently modest minimum wage.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

okie wrote:
Have the decency of arguing the points instead of resorting to accusations of idiotic babble and listening to morons on talk radio.
I can ill imagine another source for some of your "points" as few mediums distort the truth to such a ridiculous degree. Where did you get the impression illegals tend to work for less than minimum wage?

You fail to point out where the truth was so severely distorted. I will admit that the idea that illegals work for less than minimum wage was not explained well enough. To rephrase, they work for less than the wages that would otherwise be required to be paid to get the work done with legal citizens, especially in some areas. And there are a few that do work for less than minimum wage, some that work for cash under the table for very small employers, but in general, most work for minimum wage and above. However, of those, many do not have health insurance and other types of insurance. I personally know of people who have suffered because of auto accidents with such, and we all know what a burden is placed on medical services in some areas.

I don't know what your problem is with talk radio? You can pick and choose those programs that you think are informative, or even those you disagree with, and I think they are educational and newsworthy. If you wish to be an ostrich and ignore the opinions of others, then I feel sorry for you. I listen to 3 or 4 or so off and on, and some I don't.

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Thomas wrote:

okie wrote:
Great example of people loving the practice of hiring people at substandard wages. If the labor pool willing to do this work was reduced, the farmers would be forced to pay more decent wages to get the work done.

I agree it would force them to pay higher wages, or to refrain from hiring at all. You and I probably disagree about whether this is "more decent" than the status quo.

Thomas, the silent majority in this country, including Democrats, agree with me on this issue. The point is why have laws and borders if they are to be ignored? The problem is not really those people that want to work and be responsible residents here with proper insurance, etc., but the smaller percentage that are not reponsible residents, and the drug dealers, criminals, and potential terrorists. Illegal immigration is a very major problem. The politicians have failed in this area to the point that now they are afraid of offending the voters that have illegally immigrated and the minority that enable them and agree with them. They are in the minority, but now constitute real political power in terms of votes.

Quote:

okie wrote:
Also, such would drive the possible development of more automated methods for some types of work.

You appear to consider this a good thing. If you do, I don't understand it. What advantage do unskilled workers get from losing their jobs to machines rather than to immigrants?

Thomas, surely you can't be serious about this statement? This has been an age old concern since the beginning of the industrial revolution, and surely you would not be against technological innovation, which has proven itself to be wonderful in many ways. There are downsides to it, but on balance, would anyone wish to go back to the caves?

Quote:

okie wrote:
By the way, what has happened with the work programs for people with green cards?

What work programs for people with green cards?

Thomas, I think this is a long standing program for people to come across the border to work jobs in the U.S., mostly seasonal agricultural programs, and then return to families and homes in Mexico when the term of their card expires or something like that. I do not know the details of this, but I have been aware of its existence all of my life. Do a search on the internet and all kinds of information is available.

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It doesn't strike you as odd that I correctly guessed you're a talk radio guy?

More available workers in general drives wages down, whether legal or illegal, so that much is true. Most States do not require Full Coverage insurance so the legal status of the other driver in your friend's accident is incidental. Tax-wise, most illegals do indeed pay Tax, but, most don't collect their refunds and I'd wager there's enough who don't to cover those who don't pay at all. Poor people tend not to be able to pay for medical care, so legal status there again is largely incidental. You also don't seem aware that the enormous amount of tax paid by illegals help to fund both State and Federal government. Why do you really think there's no fence? The Dutch built a movable fence that can stop the surging tidal waves of mother nature when she's angry, and you think putting up a few thousand miles of chain link, bricks, or concrete would be difficult for a country that's built 4,000,000 miles of road? Laughing

Our Southern border is open for one reason. We want it to be. We want it to be because it benefits us. The talk about closing it is just so much posturing to please the more bigoted of our constituents. Don't look for it to happen any time soon.

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No, I don't think its odd about talk radio, but I prefer to argue the points where you disagree instead. I consider talk radio a plus.

Some of your points, I don't disagree with. But apparently it does not bother you that undesireables, drug dealers, and potential terrorists come across the border. Perhaps if you could see the problems now caused in towns of Oklahoma, you would see the light. Meth dealers a couple houses away from an acquaintance with a dozen people or so living in the house, until finally busted, but the people soon back on the street. Most from Mexico. Same work on hog farms in the area, driving wages down. The hospitals, police, and all the rest are stretched beyond what this community used to support. Perhaps some of the effects are simply modern society, but I do not see the effects as positive.

I think we would be far better off by building the fence, making security solid, and along with that, institute a VERY LIBERAL immigration policy, to screen and bring in more people, perhaps not far less than are coming now illegally, but without the drug dealers and undesireables. The bigotry accusation is pure hogwash, OCCOM, and you should know better.

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maporsche wrote:

Linkat wrote:
Of course politicians support minimum wage, it makes them appear as if they are concerned about those making the least amount of money, while in reality there is no benefit when raising the minimum wage. The politicians have to be savvy enough to realize this, but unfortunately most people making those low salaries are not educated enough to realize the true impact (or lack thereof). They only see that their take home pay is higher, than before and with the eventual increase in prices (if minimum wage increase is above the equilibrium rate), they end up having to pay more for food and rent so in the end their "real" income is the same.

You're exactly right. A higher minimum wage is the only cause of higher food and housing costs. That can be shown over the last 10+ years where food and housing costs have remained at the same levels that they were 10+ years ago. It's really too bad that they are too stupid to realize this.........

Oh yeah, and the minimum wage is the only thing that drives up higher prices too. As shown by energy being at the same levels as 10 years ago. Everything in the economy today is at the same level since the last minimum wage, and NOW we are going to start to see prices rise, JUST BECAUSE of minimum wage.

Obviously you did not read my previous post - right before this one - that stated there are many effects to the economy.

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okie wrote:

Thomas, the silent majority in this country, including Democrats, agree with me on this issue. The point is why have laws and borders if they are to be ignored?

I've been arguing the whole thread that there isn't much of a point to them, that they should be abolished, and that America should go back to the kind of free immigration it had between 1776. I don't agree with you about much, but I do agree these laws are pointless.

okie wrote:

Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
Also, such would drive the possible development of more automated methods for some types of work.

You appear to consider this a good thing. If you do, I don't understand it. What advantage do unskilled workers get from losing their jobs to machines rather than to immigrants?

Thomas, surely you can't be serious about this statement? This has been an age old concern since the beginning of the industrial revolution, and surely you would not be against technological innovation, which has proven itself to be wonderful in many ways. There are downsides to it, but on balance, would anyone wish to go back to the caves?

(1) I agree. I like both technical progress and immigration, because I think the improvements they bring outweigh the temporary disemployment of some American workers. That's why I have no problem acknoledging that there is no big difference between the two from the workers' point of view. (2) I notice you haven't answered my question. You just gave me a tirade of rhetorical questions in return. So I'll ask it again: What difference does it make to a disemployed worker whether it's a machine or a Mexican who disemployed him?

okie wrote:

Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
By the way, what has happened with the work programs for people with green cards?

What work programs for people with green cards?

Thomas, I think this is a long standing program for people to come across the border to work jobs in the U.S., mostly seasonal agricultural programs, and then return to families and homes in Mexico when the term of their card expires or something like that. I do not know the details of this, but I have been aware of its existence all of my life. Do a search on the internet and all kinds of information is available.

Then why couldn't you turn up a credible source for this information? It's your claim, you substantiate it. And if you can't or won't do that, all that does is make you look like an idiot who makes stuff up as he goes along.

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Damn, Thomas. Why sugar coat it? Just give it to him straight. Laughing

Don't worry Okie, I'm sure he has a sheepish smile on my face saying "By the way, I don't mean this in an aggressive way". Laughing

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Thomas wrote:

okie wrote:
Thomas, the silent majority in this country, including Democrats, agree with me on this issue. The point is why have laws and borders if they are to be ignored?

I've been arguing the whole thread that there isn't much of a point to them, that they should be abolished, and that America should go back to the kind of free immigration it had between 1776. I don't agree with you about much, but I do agree these laws are pointless.

So you don't believe in nationhood anymore?

Quote:

okie wrote:
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
Also, such would drive the possible development of more automated methods for some types of work.

You appear to consider this a good thing. If you do, I don't understand it. What advantage do unskilled workers get from losing their jobs to machines rather than to immigrants?

Thomas, surely you can't be serious about this statement? This has been an age old concern since the beginning of the industrial revolution, and surely you would not be against technological innovation, which has proven itself to be wonderful in many ways. There are downsides to it, but on balance, would anyone wish to go back to the caves?

(1) I agree. I like both technical progress and immigration, because I think the improvements they bring outweigh the temporary disemployment of some American workers. That's why I have no problem acknoledging that there is no big difference between the two from the workers' point of view. (2) I notice you haven't answered my question. You just gave me a tirade of rhetorical questions in return. So I'll ask it again: What difference does it make to a disemployed worker whether it's a machine or a Mexican who disemployed him?

Tirade, huh? Would you like me to start calling all of your posts "tirades" from now on, Thomas. Its called "explaining an opinion."

What difference does it make whether its a machine or a Mexican who disemployed him? It would make a huge difference for more than one reason, one important one being if his employer trains him to run the machinery, in which case he makes more money and has an easier job, and might raise the productivity of his employer's operation.

Quote:

okie wrote:
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
By the way, what has happened with the work programs for people with green cards?

What work programs for people with green cards?

Thomas, I think this is a long standing program for people to come across the border to work jobs in the U.S., mostly seasonal agricultural programs, and then return to families and homes in Mexico when the term of their card expires or something like that. I do not know the details of this, but I have been aware of its existence all of my life. Do a search on the internet and all kinds of information is available.

Then why couldn't you turn up a credible source for this information? It's your claim, you substantiate it. And if you can't or won't do that, all that does is make you look like an idiot who makes stuff up as he goes along.

Whos the idiot here making accusations or statements without any evidence? All I said was that there is such a thing as a green card and existing guest worker programs, enabling people to come here and work for a period of time, which I think is fairly common knowledge here. If you want to find out more information, do the search yourself.

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