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Iraq Study Group Report - Summary Please?

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 12:33 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
McGentrix, of course deniers of the holocaust Israel is carrying out against Palestinians would deny they are deniers. No holocaust happening right?


Your use of the term holocaust is ridiculously inane. It makes it appear as though you have no clue what so ever of what you are talking about.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 12:39 pm
McG, At what point or numbers does it become a "holocaust" to you?

"holocaust - a great destruction of life, ..."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 12:41 pm
"holocaust - (includes, but not limited to) destruction, demolition, cataclysm, extinction, extermination, elimination, eradication, annihilation, massacre, mass murder, pogrom, buthery, carnage..."
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 12:54 pm
McGentrix wrote:
It makes it appear as though you have no clue what so ever of what you are talking about.


Surprisingly, I find myself on McG's side on this one...
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 02:11 pm
old europe, it's far from a stretch to call it genocide, ethnic cleansing or holocaust for any who is walking in Palestinian shoes. From the beginning of expulsion in 1947 the Palestinians have been scattered and hunted down. Burned out and murdered out. For instance Sharon's slaughter in Lebanon of Palestinians in the 80s for which he was charged with war crimes. Palestinians are penned up like animals. They lack water, food, medicine and the physical evidence of that is clear. Israel's inhumanity is obvious and yet the obviousness of that inhumanity is denied overwhelmingly in America. Suicide bombings are certainly a horror but those who decry that will not acknowledge the horrors that brought Palestinians to such a desperate state. They are persecuted by the world's 4th or 5th most powerful military. Apache helicopters and 500 pound bombs against a weak, impoverished, malnourished people. Hezbollah sure woke a lot of people up to what can happen when Israel's vaunted military goes up against a people not quite as malnourished. It's David and Goliath but this time Goliath is Israel. "hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-)
n.
Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire". What Israel has done to Palestinians for almost 60 years meets that definition. "UK Indymedia - Rabbi Calls For The Extermination Of All ...Rabbi Calls For The Extermination Of All Palestinian Males. ZIonism, Irrelevent Within A Generation" | 22.09.2006 09:11 | Repression | World ...
https://www3.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/09/351378.html - 33k -
"The idea of extermination of Palestinians, or their 'transfer' into other countries, is not only a view held by extremists on the fringes of society. Prominent Israeli politicians have also made calls for a 'transfer', or ethnic cleansing, based on race. Just last week, on September 11, 2006, an Israeli member of Parliament called explicitly for the transfer of Palestinians (whow he referred to as 'Arabs') from the West Bank (which he referred to as 'Judea and Samaria', the biblical name for the region where the majority of Palestinians now live).

"We have to expel most Arabs from Judea and Samaria," Eitam said at a memorial service for Lt. Amihai Merhavia, a soldier who was killed in South Lebanon in July. "We can't deal with all these Arabs, and we can't give up the territory, because we've already seen what they do there. Some of them might have to stay under certain conditions, but most of them will have to go." Despite a law that would strip Israeli parliament members of their immunity to prosecution if they are found make explicitly racist statements, no investigation of Eitam has occurred on this matter, and there was no condemnation of his statement by the Israeli government."
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 02:13 pm
Main Entry: ho·lo·caust
Pronunciation: 'hO-l&-"kost, 'hä- also -"käst or 'ho-l&-kost
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos burnt whole, from hol- + kaustos burnt, from kaiein to burn -- more at CAUSTIC
1 : a sacrifice consumed by fire
2 : a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire <a>
3 a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II -- usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : GENOCIDE
--Merriam-Webster


Blue and CI claims that Israel has caused a holocaust are stupid and telling. They do show their antisemitism.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 02:31 pm
The poor Pals. Despite all the oppression and killing, the population of Pals has soared.

It was a Christian militia that killed a bunch of Pals in Lebanon. Sharon was cleared of criminal involvement.

Before the Pals (and other Arabs) launched the war against Israel, many thousands of Pals worked in Israel. There was a solid commercial relationship between Israel and the WB and Gaza, and people freely crossed the borders.

However, the Pals don't believe in peace and settlement of borders, etc. Thus, Israel was forced to set up checkpoints, limit workers, etc., to protect itself. Israel does far less against the Pals than any other country would do in similar circumstances.

Blue, you hurt your credibility when you shade the truth.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 02:37 pm
Advocate, your denial of the present day holocaust against the Palestinians is telling for sure. "hol·o·caust (hŏl'ə-kôst', hō'lə-)
n.
Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire". Where does it say "unless it's Palestinians burned out and murdered"? Those Rabbis calling for the extermination of Palestinians also called for the assassination of Rabin. That's the State of the Union in Israel. Beyond a shadow of a doubt Israel needs regime change.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:11 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
"hol·o·caust
n.
Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire". What Israel has done to Palestinians for almost 60 years meets that definition.


blueflame, I assume you're intelligent enough to realize that when somebody is talking about the holocaust, he's talking about the Nazi holocaust. You wouldn't even know the word were it not for the ghettos, the concentration camps and the extermination camps of a sadistic regime that bureaucratically planned the murder of several millions of innocent people.

You're making an idiot of yourself when you quote a definition of the word holocaust, trying to evoke the impression as if not everybody using this word was referring to this specific historical occurance.

You could just as soon call something a "Boston Tea Party", and when pressed on it post the dictionary definition of "tea party".
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:18 pm
old europe, You're wrong. Look at any dictionary that expands the definition of "holocaust." The Nazi holocaust against the Jews is but one example. Words are not limitied to one example.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:24 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
old europe, You're wrong. Look at any dictionary that expands the definition of "holocaust." The Nazi holocaust against the Jews is but one example. Words are not limitied to one example.


I was going to respond that the dictionary says that a holocaust is a "sacrificial offering to a god", but I'll bite: c.i., could you name three historical occurances that are frequently being described as a "holocaust"?
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:37 pm
old europe, I'm very familiar with Hitler's holocaust. I even know which families and corporations profitted from Auschwitz and what role they play in the present day fiasco. I'm intelligent enough to know that Israel is pulling a holocaust, genocide, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians right now. I also realize that the perpertraters of this present day horror are offended by those who call it by what it is. They'll say anything to cover their butts. I'm offended by today's mass murderers who use Hitler's holocaust as some kind of defensive shield. WW2 was a horror. And Gaza is a horror. It's like OJ screaming racism at those who say he killed his wife. Israel should hang her head in shame, tear down that Wall and let some clean water into Gaza. That would be the Jewish thing to do.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:51 pm
old europe, "Holocuast" is a word that describes events. A word is not meant to describe only one event. If you understand the definition of the word, you would know it applies to other events in our history.

Early use
Curiously enough, "holocaust" was used (along with pogrom) to describe events in Ukraine in The American Hebrew (July 25, 1919 page 250) "Race Hatred Envelopes Ukraine": "The starting point of the recent holocaust was Schitomir and spread to many other places."

But apparently even this was not the first use of "holocaust" as a simile for "genocide".

According to an article by Robert Fisk the term was first used, in 1915, by none other than Winston Churchill. Only he was not talking about the Jews. He was talking about the Armenians.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:53 pm
The word "holocaust" can be applied to what Japan did in Asia since the 1930s, and what Genghis Kahn did in Europe. I'm sure there are other events that can be called a "holocaust."
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:55 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
old europe, I'm very familiar with Hitler's holocaust. I even know which families and corporations profitted from Auschwitz and what role they play in the present day fiasco. I'm intelligent enough to know that Israel is pulling a holocaust, genocide, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians right now. I also realize that the perpertraters of this present day horror are offended by those who call it by what it is. They'll say anything to cover their butts. I'm offended by today's mass murderers who use Hitler's holocaust as some kind of defensive shield. WW2 was a horror. And Gaza is a horror. It's like OJ screaming racism at those who say he killed his wife. Israel should hang her head in shame, tear down that Wall and let some clean water into Gaza. That would be the Jewish thing to do.


blueflame, the problem with this word is that, at least for the last decades, it refers to a very specific historical event. Very much in the same way as the word "Nazi" or "fascist" has a very specific meaning, and those who use these terms very deliberately and completely free of the context that history provides are merely trying to muddy the waters.

I have no problem with calling Israeli war crimes by that name. But I don't see any reason why I should take people serious when they throw around terms like "Palestinian holocaust" or "Islamofascists" in a way that suggests complete lack of any historical knowledge.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:55 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The word "holocaust" can be applied to what Japan did in Asia since the 1930s, and what Genghis Kahn did in Europe. I'm sure there are other events that can be called a "holocaust."

I would venture that what the Anglos and the Spanish did to the native americans could easily be defined as a holocaust.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 07:49 pm
old europe, I'm no Doris Kearns Goodwin by any stretch of the imagination. But I do study hard the history that interests me. Usually history of the last hundred years or so. Also I'm not much of a name caller on forums and I back up what I say with documentation. Names, dates, places, people. The Bush/Walker family history especially is fascinating because they played a major role in much of what has happened in that time period. In a big way their history is a history of America and the world in the last hundred years at least. They've been involved in arming the Bolshevik Revolution, Hitler, Saddam, bin Laden and many like them in between. Have profitted greatly from that. I know they made a bundle off Auschwitz and Hitler's holocaust. I know quite a bit about the holocaust including details I think many Americans dont even wanna know. I also know quite a bit about the Israeli/Palestinian situation. Hitler's holocaust was evil. And what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank is evil also. Rabin was killed by evil minded Israelis. And that is who now is the biggest obstacle to a 2 state solution. Imo Hamas has done a great deal since their election to bring about 2 states and Israel has thwarted that visciously time and again. Those Rabbis and politicians who call for extermination of Palestinian men have the power and they would not have that power without the assassination of Rabin. They killed to prevent a solution and used their interpertations of scripture to justify it. They said G-D demanded it. That mindset is as warped as Hitler's mindset was warped. This is an evil within Israel that will kill Israelis who disagree with them and who are willing to swap land for peace. And it's an evil that is funded heavily and armed by the United States. America is one nation that is totally out of touch with what has been done to the Palestinians and what is going on in Gaza every day. In all the recent events in Gaza and Lebanon and Israel there is one day that stands out to me and is the best indication of just how badly Israel stands against a 2 state solution. That story is here, "The Cutting Edge: Shin Bet Vetoed Secret Israeli-Palestinian Peace" ...Israeli negotiators included Rabbi Menachem Froman, former deputy leader and ... which was to be announced at a press conference in Jerusalem to mark the ...
nafeez.blogspot.com/2006/07/shin-bet-vetoed-secret-israeli.html - 32k - http://nafeez.blogspot.com/2006/07/shin-bet-vetoed-secret-israeli.html
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Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 12:58 am
blueflame1 wrote:
Imo Hamas has done a great deal since their election to bring about 2 states and Israel has thwarted that visciously time and again.


I have a problem with the notion that Hamas is leading the effort to create a 2 state solution, which respects Israel:

Source

Quote:
Among the more infamous Hamas suicide bombings and terrorist attacks were (the following is a representative, not exhaustive, list):


The 1 June 2001 suicide bombing of a Tel Aviv discotheque, in which 21 people were murdered and 120 were wounded;
The 9 August 2001 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, in which 15 people were murdered and 130 were wounded;
The 1 December 2001 double suicide bombing on the Ben Yehuda Street pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 188 were wounded;
The 2 December 2001 suicide bombing of a #16 bus in Haifa, in which 15 people were murdered and 40 were wounded;
The 9 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which 11 people were murdered and 54 were wounded;
The 27 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Netanya hotel on the first night of Passover, in which 30 people were murdered and 140 were wounded;
The 18 June 2002 suicide bombing of a #32A bus in Jerusalem, in which 19 people were murdered and 74 were wounded;
The 4 August 2002 suicide bombing of #361 bus at Meron junction, in which nine people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
The 21 November 2002 suicide bombing of a #20 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
The 5 March 2003 suicide bombing of a #37 bus in Haifa, in which 17 people were murdered and 53 were wounded;
The 17 May 2003 suicide bombing in Hebron, in which two people were murdered;
The 18 May 2003 suicide bombing of a #6 bus in Jerusalem, in which seven people were murdered and 20 wounded;
The 11 June 2003 suicide bombing of #14A bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and over 100 were wounded;
The 19 August 2003 suicide bombing of a #2 bus in Jerusalem, in which 23 people were murdered and over 130 were wounded;
The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a hitchhiking post near the IDF base at Tzrifin, in which nine soldiers were murdered and 10 were wounded;
The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which seven people were murdered and 70 were wounded;
The 29 January 2004 suicide bombing of a #19 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 44 were wounded;
The 14 March 2004 double suicide bombing at Ashdod port, in which 10 people were murdered and 16 were wounded.
On Aug 31, 2004 16 people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 07:24 am
squinny

I've held off on posting to your thread here, waiting for analyses and commentary to develop. Let me tell you what I think we are now in for.

1) there's been a sustained and ubiquitous attack on the ISG report from all the ususal suspects on the right (republican propaganda machine and the neoconservative camp)

2) there has been criticism and support from unaligned and thoughtful military and foreign policy people... as one would expect and hope

3) the ISG report poses a serious PR problem for Bush because it directly undercuts the desired image of him and his administration which his PR campaigners have sought to project from the time he ran in the primaries. It redefines him as incompetent, irresponsible and unfit for his office and it redefines the Iraq project as deeply faulty and dangerous to America and its interests.

4) the WH strategy to deal with this has been to dillute the significance of this report and group by trying to position it as "just one of many studies/groups" the president is consulting. Further, it is delaying Bush's speech on future policy steps in Iraq in order to dimish the public's and press' focus on the ISG through casting it further and further back in time. You can see, I expect, how these two work together. It also allows them further time to attempt derogation and doubts of the ISG through 1) above.

5) Note the increasing arrival of leaks over the last five days or so on how the WH/Pentagon is leaning towards a surge of troops into Iraq. That's a prepatory PR step. It is what they'll do. They'll do it because the alternative works directly against that desired PR image (defeatist, irresponsible and unbright kid who has to be policed by his elders, etc) and because they are seeking some means of turning around all the dynamics which led to the election defeats and thus the electoral prospects in two years.

6) A very possible upcoming scenario... Bush will appoint Lieberman to replace John Bolton at the UN, and a Republican appointee will take Lieberman's spot in the senate. And/or Lieberman will accept John McCain's invitation to run as his Vice.

7) Meanwhile, Iraq and Afghanistan and the region will move towards further chaos and this administration (and it's propaganda agents) will utilize any and all of this to promote fearfulness re Israel, Americans' security, and threat to western civilization.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 07:30 am
The Baker-Hamilton panel has come up with some tough proposals that some people don't like to hear.

So Bush is going to ignore it.
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