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I am doubting my faith - need guidance/advice.

 
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:00 pm
Reply to these three things:

1) My accusation of you being hypocritical
2) My post on equality
3) Anthropic principle
0 Replies
 
babsatamelia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:12 pm
Rockpie, I do sincerely commiserate with the discomfort you must be feeling at the loss of a cherished belief (or set of beliefs). Unlike orderly numbers (which make sense) there appear to be some certain "facts of our universe" apparently entirely beyond the scope of the human capacity for knowledge or understanding.
There are THEORIES regarding how the world began, just as there was once "the absolutely, unequivocal well known fact that the world was flat." Then these concepts periodically get turned on their
ear and SUCH occurrences do give us a moment of pause, as if we had
all just stumbled & it will take us a few moments to regain our composure
once again.
I admire NOTHING more than a human who truly suffers & wails as he
rails at the world in these moments of what, of DOUBT? Of course there
is doubt. Thankfully, nothing is certain (that I've become aware of) but CHANGE. Change, our eternal friend, standing with us through each & every day from the moment of our birth to the exact second when we draw our very last human breath, as we understand that to be. And then what? No one knows. No one comes back to tell. The CHOICE is entirely yours; you may choose to make your life "the road less traveled" asking your every question, seeking your OWN answers, accepting whatever awareness becomes clear to you & perhaps only to you during the time you spend here in this place.
Or you may join the herd of sheep, who fear asking such questions alone - on their own - with no authority to say you are doing well, with
no permission & with no authority figure to follow - fear this more than they fear life or death, or heaven or hell itself.
I don't think YOUR answers will be found in someone else...but, will be
found within you. You carry a profound spirit message that in your lifetime you may, or may not unearth within yourself. I think that you
will. You sound like a seeker. You have to be looking for something to
find it! You seem to have that quality even though you yearn for the
confirmation, comfort and "sureness" that you perhaps once got from a
church, a group, a set of beliefs. Yet here you are questing. It's a lifelong journey that you've just set out upon, so my only advice is that a lifetime is a long time to learn, so take it easy on yourself. Take your time and
pace yourself. And have a very happy holiday season.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 10:27 pm
Raul-7 wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:

Wow, what a miracle! Poetic style along with coincidence. Why didn't I see it befor... I'm gonna have to convert now that there's proof.


Yes, very funny.

What about the verse "men are equal to women" - mathematically they are equal as well, the word man and women are written 24 times each.

The word Angel and Devil are written 88 times each. The word Dunia (this World) and Hereafter are mentioned 115 times each. Life 145; Death 145. Hardship 114; Patience 114. The word Sea 32 times and Land 13 times.

Sea + land = 32+13= 45

Sea = 32/45*100=71.11111111%
Land = 13/45*100 = 28.88888889%
Sea + land =100.00%

Modern science has only recently proven that the water covers 71.111% of the Earth, while the land covers 28.889%.

Oh, what a coincedence! Rolling Eyes


You're not serious, are you?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 10:42 pm
Nothing like reverse math.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:19 pm
Raul-7 wrote:
... Modern science has only recently proven that the water covers 71.111% of the Earth, while the land covers 28.889%.

Oh, what a coincedence! Rolling Eyes

What a coincidence indeed that in context of earth's land/water distribution, a meta-search of the web shows the specific figures 71.111%/28.889% occur only in conjunction with the peculiarly grammatically incorrect phrase "Modern science has only recently proven" - while those particular specific figures do not show up in any legitimate scientific or academic text pertaining to geology, geography, or any other earth science, that I was able to locate on the web.

Then, of course, whatever ratio one accepts, if accurate at all it would be accurate for just a particular snapshot in geologic time; there is the small matter that the distribution of landmass vs water cover is a dynamic ratio, not static. See Eustatics and Plate Tectonics; the ratio of land to water has varied significantly over the past few tens of thousands of years, and even moreso if one extends consideration over the past many, many tens of hundreds of millions of years since the planet coallesced, cooled, and developed oceans, an atmoshere, and continents.

Finally, should you have to hand any independently sourced, credible, verifiable figures to support your claim, it would be wonderful were you to produce them. They would certainly put to rest the pernicious myths perpetrated by the conspiriatorial cabal of the likes of USGS, NOAA, NASA, and ESA - according to them, as of this year the accepted averaged-satellite-data-derived figures were 510,017,200 Km² (± 10 Km²) for the total area of the planet, distributed as 148,923,998.50 Km² Land Area, 361,093,201.50 Km² Water Area relative to the uncorrected median of 510,017,200 Km², for a ratio of 29.1998% land area to 70.8002% water area. I'm sure the world's scientific and academic communities will appreciate being shown the errors of their assumptions.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:23 am
Well put.
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Eretiq
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 02:41 am
"The word Dunia (this World) and Hereafter are mentioned 115 times each".
What exactly do you mean by that Raul ? If i follow the same path of logic as the previous examples i would say that you are suggesting that Dunia and Hereafter are equal. Now be careful not to contradict yourself and your religion, because Allah might have you burn in Hell. Are you and your fellow muslims not claiming that Hereafter is "better and everlasting" ? And even if it would be "worse and everlasting" it would still not be equal to "variable and definitely finite" wich this life is.
0 Replies
 
Eretiq
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 02:53 am
"Einstein put it logically.

"The idea that that this universe in all it's million-fold order & precision is the result of blind chance is as credible as the idea that if a printshop blew up all the type would fall down again in the finished & faultless form of the dictionary" -Albert Einstein "

Raul, notice the "is as credible" statement. In other words HE DOESN'T BELIEVE the world is the result of blind chance. Do you notice any "I KNOW AND CAN PROVE" the world is not a result of blind chance ? If you do let me know. What i'm trying to say is that again it's a matter of belief/faith and if Einstein says it, it doesn't make it true. He is after all a man, and he is subject to mistakes.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 03:30 am
"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

- Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil."

- Albert Einstein
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:40 pm
Raul, here are people who try to bring light on the situation. However, they are in the process destroying your religion, and therefore, destroying your foundations. So that makes you believe that they are your enemies. Since one never admits defeat to their enemies, you will blinding ignore or these statements and carry on believing.

Sad, isn't it?
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:40 pm
And reply to the three things listed. Please.
0 Replies
 
Raul-7
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 07:16 pm
aperson wrote:
Raul, here are people who try to bring light on the situation. However, they are in the process destroying your religion, and therefore, destroying your foundations. So that makes you believe that they are your enemies. Since one never admits defeat to their enemies, you will blinding ignore or these statements and carry on believing.

Sad, isn't it?


Oh, you look at it as if mankind are always right; however, I believe it is mankind who are 0.3% off.

As for the case of Dunia and Hereafter, it doesn't mean they are of equal. Going by your logic the fact that the word Devil and Angel mentioned 88 times each mean they are equal, when it they are polar opposites. Same thing with the Dunia and Hereafter. Temporary vs Ever-lasting.

I only used Einstein as an example, since most of you detest religion and follow science blindy - I thought I would use someone you must all hold close to your hearts. And the fact that he's smarter than everyone here, he knows more about the works of the Universe than any of us - his views hold some weight.

And no it isn't sad, people mocked and killed God's Messengers before. What's going to stop them from doing it now? They will see who are the real losers in the End.

Say: O ye that reject Faith!...To you be your Way, and to me mine. (Quran 109: 1 & 6)
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 08:22 pm
Science has proof, so just because I follow it doesn't mean that my following of it is blind. Religion, on the other hand...


Raul, please, PLEASE stop avoiding my questions. I have asked you numerous times and even listed the things I want you to reply to. Please. I shall do it again so that you have no excuse:

1) My accusation of you being hypocritical
2) My post on equality
3) Anthropic principle
4) The first paragraph in this post

If you do not have anything to say on the posts listed (but I believe you do because not doing so would be admitting that I am right) please say so.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 08:40 am
aperson wrote:
Science has proof, so just because I follow it doesn't mean that my following of it is blind. Religion, on the other hand...


Raul, please, PLEASE stop avoiding my questions. I have asked you numerous times and even listed the things I want you to reply to. Please. I shall do it again so that you have no excuse:

1) My accusation of you being hypocritical
2) My post on equality
3) Anthropic principle
4) The first paragraph in this post

If you do not have anything to say on the posts listed (but I believe you do because not doing so would be admitting that I am right) please say so.


aperson wrote:
I was a Christian. My view is clear (see my signature) unlike yours. And now that my view is clear, I see what before was impossible to see. Regard everything with an open mind. Then you will see the light.


I had an open mind. It lead me to Islam

1.Our way is clear. We didn't come from nothing, we didn't create ourselves, WE WERE CREATED. WE WERE CREATED TO WORSHIP THE CREATOR. HE DID NOT LEAVE US WITHOUT GUIDENCE

aperson wrote:
Oh, and it is obvious that men were not treated equal to women. If God does think that they are, maybe he would have done something.


Men and women are equal in the eyes of God in that one is not given precedence over the other in terms of deeds, actions and reward or punishment in the hereafter
That doest mean they are treated equally by the creation, as to presume this would be ludicrous. If we were to treat them equally, women would play pro-sports alongside men.

3.Finally the Anthropic principle. Which do you support? WAP, SAP, FAP or CRAP?

For me I believe in the Strong Anthropic Principle which is the teleological argument. The universe must have been designed. By a designer or creator otherwise known as GOD. Rolling Eyes

Your proof does not deny the existence of God. Your so called 'proofs' are not evidence. They are known as 'THEORIES' NOT 'LAWS'
0 Replies
 
Shanster20
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:46 am
albeit a logical theory.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 11:03 am
Shanster20 wrote:
albeit a logical theory.


So is the Strong Anthropic Principle Very Happy
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 11:42 am
[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2439354#2439354]timber[/url] wrote:
Abid wrote:
The Strong anthropic principle suggests the universe was designed. Again. If we were designed and therefore created, what is that reason?


Strong, Weak, or Final, teleologic or eutaxiologic, any Anthropic Principle is tautology proceeding from post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Strong Anthropic Principle (SAP),
Weak Anthropic Principle (WAP),
Final Anthropic Principle (FAP)

- no matter; all are Completely Ridiculous Assumptive Principles (CRAP).
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 12:47 pm
Why do I get the feeling we are repeating ourselves!!!!
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Eretiq
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 02:09 pm
Raul, let me clarify to you what i meant because it seems you're not following your own logic. You said :

"What about the verse "men are equal to women" - mathematically they are equal as well, the word man and women are written 24 times each."

The logic behind that argument is that if they are written the same number of times then that means the author was trying to say they are equal.

You also wrote :

"The word Angel and Devil are written 88 times each. The word Dunia (this World) and Hereafter are mentioned 115 times each. Life 145; Death 145. Hardship 114; Patience 114"

Following your own logic that would mean Angels are equal to Devils, Dunia is equal to Hereafter, Life is equal to Death, Hardship is equal to Patience.

Although to me the logic behind those verses would be more that the author was trying to say that those terms are totally oposite wich in the case of men vs. women it's a big DOOOH !!! We don't need a profet to tell us that men are totally different from women, and if that is indeed the logic then i'm not seeing any claims that men are equal to women in those verses. And by the looks and rules of your society it doesn't really seem that they are treated equally.

Also that logic doesn't really apply to the last case (Hardship vs. Patience) so what i think is that it's only a desire of the author to make a clever poem so you shouldn't really look that much into it. I could also say that maybe the author was having problems in following his own imposed poetry logic since he made the same characteristic (number of apparitions) mean different things.

Or is it maybe that when interpreting those verses you get to twist and turn the rules/logic to suit whatever it is that YOU (the interpreter) are trying to say or makes sense to you, and not what the author actually wanted to say ?
0 Replies
 
Eretiq
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 02:19 pm
Also Raul, what do you say to the "miracles" performed by our current day magicians (see one of my previous posts, and i can't imagine you haven't seen some for yourself). Thank "Allah/God" (notice the irony) they're not claiming that God spoke to them in their dreams and told them that we should all jump head first into the first dry fountain. Now let us all analyze what we would have :

1. Person performing miracles (things that 99,9% of the population can't explain/understand)
2. Person claiming that God is telling us through them what we should actually be doing.

1 + 2 = Profet.

Add to that the claim that he is the son of God, and then who could beat that. I mean who could prove they are not and since they can perform miracles and God "speaks to them", why should we not blindly believe too ?
0 Replies
 
 

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