I am doubting my faith - need guidance/advice.

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You cannot stop being a Christian. If you choose not to believe in God - then you probably were never a Christian to begin with.

So. You're saying that even though for the majority of my life, up into my late 20's early 30's (I am now 37), that the Christian faith I had was not real? As strong as I was in faith in the past. As convicted as I was? It was not real?

You are saying to me that because now that I might choose not to believe for reasons of logic and experience, that I was never Christian?

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The only thing that ever makes me violent on the S&R forum is when one supposed Christian tells someone else that they aren't a Christian. I'm about to get violent.

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I am not saying you are not a Christian...I am saying if you finally choose to become an atheist, if you decide that after all that time in church and the upbringing you had - if you choose to say that God is not real and that you do not believe - then I would say you probably never were. Lots of people grow up in Church and do religious things. That does not mean they are Christians.

There are people who do good things and they are moral people - but they are not Christians. A Christian is someone who knows that Jesus died for them. They know that they are sinners...they feel the things they have done wrong and the want to be freed from them...they understand that Christ died for those sins so they could be free. If these are things you still do not understand...if they have not made an impact on your life and you do not accept that gift that God gave through his Son...then you probably never were a Christian. A true Christian should always take it a step further - since faith without works is weak at best...I true Christian will have compassion and love and seek to help others the best they can....they are DOERS of the Word (Bible) and not hearers only.

On the other hand...if at one time you did understand that - if you labored over your sin and were sorry for the sins you committed and asked God to forgive you and knew you had been forgiven - and that your sins were no longer counted against you...then I am betting the bank that you will not turn your back on God...you may lose touch with him, you may be mad at him, you may think he has left you high and dry...but I am pretty dang sure you will become aware of him again and that your faith will be renewed.

I am not saying you are not a Christian at all...I am just saying that if you do choose to say God is not real - that you probably never really knew him...if you are just angry and seeking your way right now (which we all do) and you are a Christian...you will find your way back...no doubt...God will guide you. God bless as you seek...

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mismi40 wrote:

There are people who do good things and they are moral people - but they are not Christians.

says you.

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A Christian is someone who knows that Jesus died for them. They know that they are sinners...they feel the things they have done wrong and the want to be freed from them...they understand that Christ died for those sins so they could be free.

says you, again.

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If these are things you still do not understand...if they have not made an impact on your life and you do not accept that gift that God gave through his Son...then you probably never were a Christian.

mismi40 -- you have NO AUTHORITY to determine who is and who isn't a Christian.

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A true Christian

dem's fightin' words and it could get REAL ugly from here...

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should always take it a step further - since faith without works is weak at best...

works are good.

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I true Christian will have compassion and love and seek to help others the best they can....they are DOERS of the Word (Bible) and not hearers only.

Lots of folks have compassion and love and seek to help others the best they can.

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On the other hand...if at one time you did understand that - if you labored over your sin and were sorry for the sins you committed and asked God to forgive you and knew you had been forgiven - and that your sins were no longer counted against you...then I am betting the bank that you will not turn your back on God...you may lose touch with him, you may be mad at him, you may think he has left you high and dry...but I am pretty dang sure you will become aware of him again and that your faith will be renewed.

I am not saying you are not a Christian at all...I am just saying that if you do choose to say God is not real - that you probably never really knew him...if you are just angry and seeking your way right now (which we all do) and you are a Christian...you will find your way back...no doubt...God will guide you. God bless as you seek...

The Gospel according to mismi40.

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You cannot stop being a Christian. If you choose not to believe in God - then you probably were never a Christian to begin with.

This is quite insulting, but also quite amusing seeing as how you think you know the minds of millions of people better than those people do. If you had ever lost your faith in Christianity, then you would know just how heart-wrenching it is to be truly awakened to your state of ignorance of not only the world around you, or of just what is around you and what might not be, but also the ignorance you have of yourself and as to whether your loved ones will still accept you if you announce your realization of your own ignorance. That can be a truly frightening experience. Anyone who has experienced that will know, from the pain, fear, and long-trodden transition to a new way of thinking, that they truly were Christians, just as surely as anyone who has moved into a new home will know, by their experience, that they were in a different home before. I know I was a Christian. My experience confirms it.

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It is exactly where Satan wants us to be...uselessly befuddled by our own confused meanderings.

God is infinite. He has infinite power and ability, infinite understanding and knowledge. And infinite love.

You define Yahweh as possessing "infinite love." Infinite love implies that Yahweh has an infinite desire (you can't have a finite desire because that implies a finite love) to get us to Heaven. If he has an infinite desire to get us to Heaven, he must also have an infinite desire to put an end to the kind of befuddlement that causes some souls to not enter Heaven. If Yahweh has an infinite desire to end such befuddlement, and also has the infinite knowledge to do so and the infinite ability to impart that knowledge, then such befuddlement wouldn't exist. Nothing could prevent an infinite desire from coming to fruition when its combined with the infinite ability to bring it to fruition. We can thus conclude that either: (1) befuddlement does not exist because Yahweh, as defined, does exist; or (2) befuddlement does exist so Yahweh, as defined, does not exist. Through the observation of what has been discussed in this topic, we can conclude that such befuddlement does exist so Yahweh, as defined, does not.

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I am saying if you finally choose to become an atheist, if you decide that after all that time in church and the upbringing you had - if you choose to say that God is not real and that you do not believe - then I would say you probably never were.

An atheist is a person who says they don't believe in a god but that doesn't necessarily mean that the person says "there is no god." That certainly is a form of atheism, but there are other forms, such as agnostic atheism and noncognitivist atheism. The agnostic atheist would probably agree with this statement: "I don't know whether there is a god or not, and because I am honest and I do not know I must reflect that by not giving assent to the proposition god-exists, for I do not know that to be true." This individual isn't saying that there is no god, but they are saying that "God exists" is not a belief that they hold, hence they are a-theos-ists -- atheists -- people without (a-) god (theos-) belief (ist/ism). The noncognitivist atheist would probably agree with this statement: "I cannot give assent to the proposition 'god exists' because god is a word that conveys no clear meaning to me." To illustrate this position, make up a word and do not give it a definition (feel free to pretend that it does have a definition but you still don't understand what the word means). Let's call this word Unie. Do you believe "Unie exists" is a true proposition? Of course you don't, Unie is a word that has no meaning for you. I am an agnostic atheist, hence I do not fit your description of atheists. Please do keep in mind that there are several kinds of atheism and not just one.

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Nothing I have said here is according to me...the thread said..." I am doubting my faith...need guidance". I have doubted my faith...I have rebelled toward God, I have been angry at him...for many things. But as someone who experienced that kind of thing and actually came back to full knowledge and understanding of the love of God...I just thought I could help. I can back it all up with scripture.

I said: There are people who do good things and they are moral people - but they are not Christians.

You said:
says you.

Are you kind JPB? Do you try to help folks around you when they need it? Do you generally try to do what is right by your fellow man? I am sure you are a good person...But are you a Christian?

I said: A Christian is someone who knows that Jesus died for them. They know that they are sinners...they feel the things they have done wrong and the want to be freed from them...they understand that Christ died for those sins so they could be free.

You said:
says you, again.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If you are a Christian you believe this...the Bible says so - I am repeating it to be sure....

I said:Quote:
If these are things you still do not understand...if they have not made an impact on your life and you do not accept that gift that God gave through his Son...then you probably never were a Christian.

mismi40 -- you have NO AUTHORITY to determine who is and who isn't a Christian.

Hebrews 6: 4- 6
4)It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5) who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/B]

I could never make that determination...you are right. I was not saying that he is or he isn't - the guides are pretty clear scripturally as to what it requires.

I said:
true Christian will have compassion and love and seek to help others the best they can....they are DOERS of the Word (Bible) and not hearers only.

You said:
Lots of folks have compassion and love and seek to help others the best they can.

You are right...though there are many who claim to be Christians and yet they do not abide by the Scripture. They are not kind, they do not care for other as they ought and they do things that are not in line with God's Word...I am just saying - A true Christian will accept what the Bible says...they do believe that it is their authority on their beliefs. If a person claims to be a Christian and does not follow the Word of God it makes them worse than those who say they aren't Christians in my opinion. If you claim to be a Christian then you should want to do what the Bible says.

I am not the end all be all...and I am sure I have said things here - the wrong way at best...But it is NOT from me...all I have said has come from the scriptures...

I will leave you with Romans 8: one of my favorite books and chapters...
I am sorry you are offended by what I said...I wish it didn't have to be so...but I speak only what I believe - just as you do.

here it is...I

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mismi40, for the sake of my blood pressure and what's left of this short evening, I'll simply say that quoting scripture as justification for claiming that someone else's faith is false rings hollow. Type as long as you wish to type. Spout as long as you wish to spout. Quote as much as you wish you quote, but don't ever feel justified in proclaiming someone else's faith false and yet claim "true Christian" status as your own. It is not yours to proclaim and you are not the judge.

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mismi40 wrote:

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

How about shining a little light for me. Who did God give up his only begotten son to? Who was the great offended one that demanded this blood sacrifice?

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mismi40 wrote:

A Christian is someone who knows that Jesus died for them. They know that they are sinners...they feel the things they have done wrong and the want to be freed from them...they understand that Christ died for those sins so they could be free. If these are things you still do not understand...if they have not made an impact on your life and you do not accept that gift that God gave through his Son...then you probably never were a Christian.

This may be what your parish priest told you. But your parish priest is no authority on correct English usage. Even the Bible isn't. Dictionaries are. And as it happens, dictionaries disagree with you and the purported authorities you argue from. Webster's definition, for example, states in in its relevant part that the noun Christian means "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ". Now let's turn the mike over to the American Heritage Dictionary. According to it, a Christian is "1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."

Words have meanings; the word "Christian", in particular, has a meaning different from the one you're trying to define into it.

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Okay, Okay, Okay!!!!

It appears that I have a knack for stirring up a hornets nest on this forum. I guess it is only natural given the topics I've chosen to post on.

The whole point is that I am having a crisis of faith. I have been disillusioned with organized religion of all kinds. I know somewhere that someone will advise me to talk with a clergy-person at some point. Perhaps that would be the best option. Problem is: I find the clergy to be dogmatic blow-hards that are going to blow the same churchy smoke up my butt that I've gotten all along.

I have had personal tragedy in my life that has caused me to question God's existence. If not the existence of God then whether God cares for me or wants me to care for Him/Her.

I have seen evil in the world at large that causes me to question if an omnipotent god could exist and allow us to do the things we do to each other.

BTW thanks JPB for being an advocate.

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How about shining a little light for me. Who did God give up his only begotten son to? Who was the great offended one that demanded this blood sacrifice?

Umm...Actually it was...um...God himself that demanded such a sacrifice...to himself.

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Jake...Please forgive me if I made it sound like I was saying you are not a Christian. I did not mean you personally. Just as pretty much anything is concerned - there are certain identifying factors that determine whether you are a believer or not. My focus should have been - how do I help you now? Whether you turn back to what you were raised believing or choose to believe something differently is of course your choice...and though my heart longs for everyone to know the peace and joy and help that comes from my beliefs - I have no right to make you feel that seeking is wrong...seeking is absolutely a good think...Scripture says: "Seek and you will find" and I am hoping you come to peace with your struggle.

2 years ago my dad was diagnosed with cancer. He was 62 years old. I was scared to death. He was a smoker, and did not take care of himself as he should, so my fear was that even though testicular cancer, if caught in the early stages is pretty curable - because of his habits and health conditions he would not make it. While he was on Chemo and a tiny, frail bald headed old man...Katrina hit New Orleans. My folks lived on a river in Mobile, AL - just a mile up from the bay. The house they lived in was my Grandmother's house - it has never flooded in all the years of living there...which is over 50 now. Katrina hit two hours west of us and the surge pushed up the bay and the river knocking the glass (that was boarded up) out and filling the entire house with 5 feet of water. Everything they had - even the house was gutted. And the insurance company said because it was a flood there was no money to be had, because they did not have flood insurance. So my weak Dad lived in a pop-up camper on his own property with no air-condition, - I can't even tell you the conditions...even after their church came and helped them remove all of the water laden furniture and carpets..the black mold grew so fast that someone whose immunity was so low could not be around...we had to tear out the walls and spray them with chlorine and they could not find an apartment or a hotel because many of the people from the neighboring states had come to Mobile for refuge. I tried to get them to come to stay with me...I live north of them...but his chemo was weekly and he wanted to be there...I felt helpless and angry at God. Eventually FEMA came through and got them money and a place to stay and we finally got them into an apartment - but not before his brother and sister started complaining that he had not sold the property before Katrina since it would have made more money. It was left to my Dad but he told them when he sold the place that he would divide it among the kids. It broke his heart that his brother and sister were complaining at such a horrible time. I watched them struggle with money, his health and he and Mom even started bickering - it was like they were about to snap from all of the pressure...I was angry at God. I pretty much gave up praying any more, I blamed him for allowing all of that to happen. My heart was hard and unhappy for so long at the helplessness I felt in helping my parents get back to a life that was somewhat normal. I watched as they kept telling me it was okay...they were going to be fine...God was supplying all their needs. It was miserable and I could not see what they were talking about...the pop up camper smelled like mildew- they were there for 6 weeks until FEMA came and then had to stay with my brother and the noisy kids until they found a place to put them. All of a sudden a relaxing life on the river was a nightmare - and I could do nothing but shake my fist at God. And cry over what would happen to them.

6 months later. They were in an apartment, Dad was declared cancer free...a year later they sold the river property for MORE than it had appraised for before the hurricane - and it was still gutted. They now live inland in a nice little house and the sell of the river house afforded him a very nice retirement supplement. He is back to his old vital self...smoke free and their life is back to normal. As I saw all of the things fall into place...all I could do was marvel at God and how he allows us to go through these struggles. Why - we don't always know. I do know that my dad would have never given up the river house. He loved it - it was a legacy from his MOm and Dad and though Aunty and Uncle cared nothing about it - he loved it. He would have had to take a mortgage on it in his older years to get them the money they were demanding...That would have been stressful and not a good move in his retirement years to make. Instead he had to sell it because of the damage - and now lives happily - care free (mostly) in a great house that is close to where I grew up...God worked it all out. There is no doubt in my mind...

Now - your tragedy may be worse than that - and of course I am speaking as someone who allowed their faith to waiver when things went bad - but that is not so bad...God knows us - I am sure he wishes I had just stayed strong believing that though Mom and Dad struggled so - he was going to bring them through. He promises us struggles and hard times here on earth. We know that is going to happen...but he has shown me over and over again how very good he is. Sometimes we can trace his hand here on earth...we see why he does the things he does...sometimes we cannot. And some things that happen are a puzzle...we never get to see the good that comes from it. But we can trust his heart...God is good. His mercy and love endureth forever and no matter what or how we deal with our disappointments -

I want everyone to know that God is rooting for you - he desires us to wait on him and see how he brings us through...not always as we desire...sometimes the opposite of what we desire.

I am so very sorry to have made so many angry with my statements. I assure you I would have rethought how I said things if I thought I was going to cause so many such grief. I am certainly not all knowing. I am not brilliant or set apart in any way...other than the fact that I know what I believe. And it is not something I made up. Everything I shared can be found in scripture. If you believe the Bible then it is a solid place to go when you struggle. If you do not - then you just have to see things differently than me. And I am okay with that. Like I said - I want people to know what I know - Just as if you would tell a good friend something that is of value to them...I consider my faith (not my religion - my going to church - my pastor - these things are not bad in and of themselves but they are not what determines my beliefs) as the cornerstone of my life...my foundation so to speak. I wobble, I sway but in the end - it stands firm. I am always brought back to God. My faith comes from God and his Word...the Bible. And without it I would be lost.

I hope you find what you are looking for and whatever you choose to believe that your soul will find rest and reprieve from the tragedy that has happened in your life.

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Thank you mismi.

I know you meant no ill-will. I am happy that you have found peace and comfort in God. I actually envy it.

I don't know how to explain. But I have not felt comfort in faith. There are those who claim to feel the "Holy Spirit" in them. But I have often, sometimes desperately, prayed for the Holy Spirit to be in me, I have felt only numbness and cold.

When I am ready, truly ready, perhaps I will find peace.

Now, I think I'll just go and look at the home improvement department or something where I will not stir up a ruckus. I really don't intend to, but given the subject matter I've been dealing with it is only logical many people with differing views are going to weigh in.

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jake123 wrote:

Okay, Okay, Okay!!!!

It appears that I have a knack for stirring up a hornets nest on this forum. I guess it is only natural given the topics I've chosen to post on.

The whole point is that I am having a crisis of faith. I have been disillusioned with organized religion of all kinds. I know somewhere that someone will advise me to talk with a clergy-person at some point. Perhaps that would be the best option. Problem is: I find the clergy to be dogmatic blow-hards that are going to blow the same churchy smoke up my butt that I've gotten all along.

I have had personal tragedy in my life that has caused me to question God's existence. If not the existence of God then whether God cares for me or wants me to care for Him/Her.

I have seen evil in the world at large that causes me to question if an omnipotent god could exist and allow us to do the things we do to each other. . .

Well, Jake, when you consider that the evil in this world can usually be traced back to the clergy of this world, perhaps a heart to heart with one of them folks ain't such a good idea. When Paul referred to the "god of this world" in 2Corinthians 4:4, he was not referring to the true God. But you can be sure that if you continue to search your bible, you will discover that God has delivered a sure promise for a world in which the promise he made in Genesis 1:28 will come true.

jake123 wrote:

Thank you mismi.

I know you meant no ill-will. I am happy that you have found peace and comfort in God. I actually envy it.

I don't know how to explain. But I have not felt comfort in faith. There are those who claim to feel the "Holy Spirit" in them. But I have often, sometimes desperately, prayed for the Holy Spirit to be in me, I have felt only numbness and cold.

When I am ready, truly ready, perhaps I will find peace.

Now, I think I'll just go and look at the home improvement department or something where I will not stir up a ruckus. I really don't intend to, but given the subject matter I've been dealing with it is only logical many people with differing views are going to weigh in.

I recommend a tour of the tool department. :wink:

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jake123 wrote:

Now, I think I'll just go and look at the home improvement department or something where I will not stir up a ruckus. I really don't intend to, but given the subject matter I've been dealing with it is only logical many people with differing views are going to weigh in.

Heh! Wait until you catch a peek at the water softening threads on Home Improvement. S&R and R&M are calm, cool, and collected in comparison to the water wars. If you want a ruckus, ask which water softener you should buy. :wink:

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I was thinkin', "Is it better to hang drywall vertically or horizontally?"

But the water softener thing sounds fascinating.

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jake123 wrote:

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How about shining a little light for me. Who did God give up his only begotten son to? Who was the great offended one that demanded this blood sacrifice?

Umm...Actually it was...um...God himself that demanded such a sacrifice...to himself.

Aha, I see the source of your crisis in faith. You are cursed with the ability to use light to illuminate rather than blind. I concur with neologist and Thomas about studying the Bible diligently, or even better yet participate on some threads here where it is being discussed. Don't be concerned about stirring up a hornets nest. The S&R threads have been almost boring lately.

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Mismi, if God is good, how come he put your Dad through hell before helping him and failed to save my father-in-law (a devout Christian and a good person) from dying a painful, lingering death from lung cancer? No discernable good came from his death.

Why do you suppose God failed to avert Hurricane Katrina in spite of the fervent prayers of millions of people? The Bible promises that all prayers will be answered - and it does not say that the answer may be "no, my Plan requires you to struggle, fail and die in misery."

How can anyone have faith in the goodness of a God who randomly bestows blessings on some and death/destruction on other equally-deserving people, even though he allegedly has the power to help everyone who asks?

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neologist wrote:

Well, this thread has some good stuff in it, not to mention some good advice from our late friend Timberlandko.

One thing I would like to point out about the bible that many preachers fail to emphasize is that Satan is the god of this world. He has been given that position by virtue of the challenge he presented in Eden. There is more to it, of course, but consider that when he offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in the temptation, Jesus did not deny they were his to give.

So, if you have a contention with the god of this world, that is to be expected.

My advice, which will undoubtedly be contradicted, is to study the bible diligently.

You sound like my mom. No doubt good advice.

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mismi40 wrote:

I am not saying you are not a Christian...I am saying if you finally choose to become an atheist, if you decide that after all that time in church and the upbringing you had - if you choose to say that God is not real and that you do not believe - then I would say you probably never were. Lots of people grow up in Church and do religious things. That does not mean they are Christians.

There are people who do good things and they are moral people - but they are not Christians. A Christian is someone who knows that Jesus died for them. They know that they are sinners...they feel the things they have done wrong and the want to be freed from them...they understand that Christ died for those sins so they could be free. If these are things you still do not understand...if they have not made an impact on your life and you do not accept that gift that God gave through his Son...then you probably never were a Christian. A true Christian should always take it a step further - since faith without works is weak at best...I true Christian will have compassion and love and seek to help others the best they can....they are DOERS of the Word (Bible) and not hearers only.

On the other hand...if at one time you did understand that - if you labored over your sin and were sorry for the sins you committed and asked God to forgive you and knew you had been forgiven - and that your sins were no longer counted against you...then I am betting the bank that you will not turn your back on God...you may lose touch with him, you may be mad at him, you may think he has left you high and dry...but I am pretty dang sure you will become aware of him again and that your faith will be renewed.

I am not saying you are not a Christian at all...I am just saying that if you do choose to say God is not real - that you probably never really knew him...if you are just angry and seeking your way right now (which we all do) and you are a Christian...you will find your way back...no doubt...God will guide you. God bless as you seek...

Mad at God....left high and dry. Like all hell is breaking loose around you right? You mean I'm not the only one who has felt this way at times?

Thank you for writing this. My God bless you.

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I am doubting my faith - need guidance/advice.

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