"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Stephen Weinburg, The New York Times, April 20, 1999
timberlandko wrote:"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Stephen Weinburg, The New York Times, April 20, 1999
Fallacy of the General Rule!
Phoenix32890 wrote:rockpie wrote:is there a god? what is the truth? these could be the most important questions you can ask. but maybe we'll never know the truth, there are infinite theories which are always evolving and changing and showing things in a new light, but it all comes down to opinion.
You have it exactly right. Whatever one believes in, it is simply an opinion. No one really knows, for sure. The problem is where not only individuals, but entire religions and nations go to war, torture, kill and injure people who don't believe as they do. Even if they don't go that far, there are people who will deprive others of their liberties, based solely on the tenets of their religious beliefs.
If a certain belief "floats your boat", I say go for it. As long as one realizes that their beliefs are merely opinions, and don't attempt to force these beliefs on others, I see no problem with it. As far as I am concerned, I may not respect a person's beliefs, but I respect their right to hold those beliefs, as long as their beliefs do not interfere with my life.
An opinion is itself not sufficent to make something true. Something may not be true even if one has an opinion that it is true. This is because faiths have the possibility of being false.
Faith is itself not sufficent to make something true. Something may not be true even if one has faith that it is true. This is because faiths have the possibility of being false.
Examples:
I have an opinion that "2+2=5" is true.
I have faith that "2+2=5" is true.
The mere fact that things are uncertain makes it possible that a God does exist, also makes it possible that a God does not exist. Yet many people think that the latter is false, and that it is impossible for God not to exist. Yet certainly this is false, because since they do not know, there certainly is a chance that God does not exist.
Extropy wrote:The mere fact that things are uncertain makes it possible that a God does exist, also makes it possible that a God does not exist. Yet many people think that the latter is false, and that it is impossible for God not to exist. Yet certainly this is false, because since they do not know, there certainly is a chance that God does not exist.
Ah, but you are forgetting those who KNOW in the HEARTS their particular god/gods. Those that have a "relationship" with that god/gods. They claim they KNOW the god better than the mere everyday things they actually
do know. They'll also point out that logic is pointless against the unknowable mind of <insert>.
You say "things are uncertain", and so do I. They disagree.
The final retort may be to point out the obvious:
Amazement was the act that gave birth to philosophy. Why was it, then, along with everything that followed, especially science, so keen to make that amazement disappear at all costs - as if it were its inverse duty, when it came to the crunch, to see to it that amazement was no more?
How is God's moral law any different from human criminal law? It holds that the good do good because they love the good, and the bad because they are afraid of being punished. It is the same thing.
Besides ethical behaviour is its own reward; it neither hopes for reward nor fears punishment. One doesn't do it because one wants a reward from God. The Holy Scriptures certainly thus do not justify any ethics.
How could God have let Auschwitz happen? If God is love, then why does he manifest so much hate? Was Auschwitz meant to happen? What about 9/11? Was 9/11 meant to happen? What if you lost somebody close at 9/11--would you think that they were meant to die there?
Why did God make it such that animals needed to eat each other and/or plants to survive? Why do we need to kill animals/plants regularily to survive? Why did God make food chains? "Every animal is the walking grave of thousands of others." - Nietzsche
Hyenas start consuming their steaks while their prey is still trying to flee them. The female praying mantis bites off its male partner's head during the act of copulation and begins to devour it. Many ichneumon flies will paralyse a caterpillar by means of a well-aimed sting in a ganglion and lay their egg, thus preparing the way for their larva to gradually consume the immobile yet still living body (thus kept fresh the whole while) from within. What is more, if it is unlucky it will fall victim to another kind of ichneumon fly in the process, which in turn lays its own egg in the larva, with the result that, like a Russian doll, three creatures are contained within one another: the original caterpillar, followed by fly larva A, followed by fly larva B. Finally, having matured into a full-blown imago, B hatches out of the victim's double skin, leaves its own skin behind and begins the cycle anew. This extraordinary phenomenon is known as hyperparasitism. This is not sadistic excess, but a vitally necessary rule of life for entire genera and species. Is this God's world?
"Past" - 'tis a stupid word.
Past - why?
Past and pure Naught, sheer Uniformity!
Of what avails perpetual Creation
if later swept off to annihilation?
"So it is past!" You see what that must mean?
It is the same as had it never been...
It may be difficult to admit that the past is gone, and it is nothingness. We would like for it to count for something. Wouldn't that be so nice? It would also be so nice if we were dyingly thirsty in the middle of the desert and summoned up an oasis by the force of our thirst. Unfortunately, whether the oasis exists or or not does not depend on how thirsty we are. The only thing the thirst can do is to produce a mirage.
i have come to the conclusion that as science/physics is trying to find the ultimate formulae for everything, the equation that God used, the only question that matters is does God exist? if God exists then we can find the equation and prove God exists through physics, because if God does not exist then there would be no equation because there would be no order. the fact that we have equations for gravity points towards God existing, and if he does, we have meaning, if he doesn't we don't. we can attempt to give ourselves meaning, for example my 'meaning' today is to attend school. but we would not actually have meaning. and if we find the equation and discover that through it (somehow) that God does not exist, the equation itself means nothing, because it hasn't found the rule as there is no rule, just chance. thoughts?
rockpie- I think that you are chasing your tail. I think that you are so confused about where you stand vis a vis the universe that you are trying much too hard. You are going around in circles, and honestly, you are making me dizzy.
Just live, experience, and see what makes the most sense to you. It would be better, at this point in your life, not to attempt to put things in neat little pigeon holes.
The important thing is to keep an open mind. At your age, it is not necessary, or particularly wise, to attempt to solve the problems of the universe. Just grow, and learn, and things will slowly begin to become clearer.
Phoenix32890 wrote:rockpie- I think that you are chasing your tail. I think that you are so confused about where you stand vis a vis the universe that you are trying much too hard. You are going around in circles, and honestly, you are making me dizzy.
Just live, experience, and see what makes the most sense to you. It would be better, at this point in your life, not to attempt to put things in neat little pigeon holes.
The important thing is to keep an open mind. At your age, it is not necessary, or particularly wise, to attempt to solve the problems of the universe. Just grow, and learn, and things will slowly begin to become clearer.
Phoenix, have you forgotten it is symptomatic of youth to solve all the problems of the universe?
When we get older, it is all we can do to solve the problems of the checkbook.
neologist- But of course. I went through the same thing myself, as a young woman. What I was attempting to do for Rockpie, was to save him from some the angst that is endemic with young people.
I suppose that he just willl have to figure it out for himself! :wink:
Phoenix32890 wrote:neologist- But of course. I went through the same thing myself, as a young woman. What I was attempting to do for Rockpie, was to save him from some the angst that is endemic with young people.
I suppose that he just willl have to figure it out for himself! :wink:
Perhaps he will solve for all of us the problems of the checkbook.
Quote:if God can do anything, does that mean he can create something too heavy for him to lift. if he's all powerful then he can do it, but if he does it he can't lift it... and if he doesn't do it, he can't... argh!
I'm not religious at all. However, it should be noted that the above contradiction exists solely in your mind. Does this same contradiction also exist in the mind of your deity? To assume so, isn't that kind of imposing your own limitations upon your deity?
Phoenix32890's signature is interesting, don't you think?
I don't have time really to read all of the posts in this thread.
My deal is this: I was a strong christian and am on the verge of atheism.
My religious upbringing makes me fear taking the last step into atheism.
Right now. I am angry with God, if there is one. So it would appear that I am rebelling against God. Exactly as I rebelled against my parents when I was angry with them. Heck even when I was not angry with them.
Can anyone point me to similar topic within or outside this particular thread?
Well, this thread has some good stuff in it, not to mention some good advice from our late friend Timberlandko.
One thing I would like to point out about the bible that many preachers fail to emphasize is that Satan is the god of this world. He has been given that position by virtue of the challenge he presented in Eden. There is more to it, of course, but consider that when he offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in the temptation, Jesus did not deny they were his to give.
So, if you have a contention with the god of this world, that is to be expected.
My advice, which will undoubtedly be contradicted, is to study the bible diligently.
rockpie wrote:ok. so lets say i stop being a Christian. but i still can't not believe in god. maybe a god does exist and does answer prayer and perform miracles, etc, but maybe no religion on earth is the one true religion, maybe god is just some spirit that is kind of playing on the sims with us. if you know what i mean. he has good intentions, sometimes he messes up, but he doesn't desire to be worshipped, yet he won't turn it down if it comes.
You cannot stop being a Christian. If you choose not to believe in God - then you probably were never a Christian to begin with.
I wouldn't waste too much time blowing your mind over this one. As far as I can see it is something to keep you thinking about your faith and your hangups with it instead of acting on your faith and living it out. It is exactly where Satan wants us to be...uselessly befuddled by our own confused meanderings.
God is infinite. He has infinite power and ability, infinite understanding and knowledge. And infinite love. You cannot outsmart him. Nor will he let you go once you truly believe. He will bring more questions and present places for you to be that will draw you back to him. I see the picture of a parent...except God does not give up on us. I love my children and it would take them totally rejecting for me for me to quit trying to draw them back to me. The same with God - except his patience and love is so much more than anything I could ever offer my children.
Who hasn't been angry at God? Who hasn't shaken their fist and said how can you be real? Why would you allow this to happen if you were truly a God of love? I think most people do. I don't say it is a great thing to do...I wish I didn't falter in my beliefs and my trust - but I am only human. But I have always been brought back to a place where I see His love and mercy. And I am restored.
I agree Neologist - Study the Bible diligently.
mismi40 wrote:You cannot stop being a Christian. If you choose not to believe in God - then you probably were never a Christian to begin with.
Actually I was a pretty devoted Lutheran until about the age of 15. Then I gradually changed into an atheist; the process completed around the age of 20.
mismi40 wrote:I agree Neologist - Study the Bible diligently.
Studying the Bible diligently, including all the weird and nasty bits my religion teachers had filtered out, was a major influence in turning me into an atheist. The god of the Old Testament was just
way too obnoxious for me to deserve worship, and there are just
way too many passages where the Bible contradicts either itself, the laws of physics, or just basic decency.
But I agree -- study the Bible diligently. Whether you end up my way or mismi40's way, it's important to know what it is your agreeing or disagreeing with.
Religion is not the same as being a Christian. Being religious is not a bad thing...but it is not necessarily good either...Believing in Christ and understanding you need a Savior are what makes a Christian. I could go to Church every Sunday, take communion, love my neighbor, tithe, say amen, speak in tongues...whatever people think religion is...but it wouldn't make one bit of difference unless I understood why Christ died and that I was in need of what he died for.
jake123 wrote:I don't have time really to read all of the posts in this thread.
My deal is this: I was a strong christian and am on the verge of atheism.
My religious upbringing makes me fear taking the last step into atheism.
Right now. I am angry with God, if there is one. So it would appear that I am rebelling against God. Exactly as I rebelled against my parents when I was angry with them. Heck even when I was not angry with them.
Can anyone point me to similar topic within or outside this particular thread?
Life is a journey, jake. There are physical components and spiritual components to that journey. Many people question the faith of their parents. Some of them end up where they began and others head down an opposite path. It's sometimes hard to understand a position that isn't black or white (strong Christian vs athethist) but many folks find happiness in a middle path -- even after swinging all the way to one side from whatever side they were on.
From your other posts, I'd guess you are in the midst of some deep soul searching in both your spiritual life and in your personal life. It takes time, but you'll find where you need to be.
Good luck.
