Oh God (now what?)

Wow! I was a Brownie, don't remember God being involved. Smile

Maybe it depends on the women running the group? I mean, how much emphasise is put on it. Have you got to know the 'Leaders' well enough to tell if this will be a big deal?

I never made it to Girl Scout...

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"french fries"

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eoe wrote:

I was a Girl Scout and remember the pledge. Didn't we have to say it at the beginning or end of every meeting? Since I was raised in a Christian home, the pledge was not a big deal.

That's the thing -- we're NOT a Christian home. That's what makes it any kind of a deal.

Especially since the whole basis of it is that the child has some sort of "spiritual beliefs." I want her to make her own decision about this stuff but kindergarten is way too early for this IMO. She knows that various religions exist, and I'll continue to teach her -- that's much different from having her promise to serve God. ("Promise" is a very serious word in our household... nobody goes back on promises, or promises something they can't deliver.)

So far mac and Linkat have come down on different sides of the word-substitution question. Any other opinions there? (That's where I'm leaning I think, but I really don't want to be too obnoxious about it.)

I'm also thinking of emailing the scout leader directly and asking her about it. I never really met her before last night but she seemed very nice.

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Yep, my biggest problem with something like this is the idea that a 5 year-old can have spiritual beliefs. I mean, I suppose they could, but would they be their own?

I like replacing it with the word "good".

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From the Girl Scout website:

http://www.girlscouts.org/program/gs_central/promise_law/

Quote:

Girl Scout Promise and Law

The Girl Scout Promise and Law are shared by every member of Girl Scouting. The Girl Scout Promise is the way Girl Scouts agree to act every day toward one another and other people, and the Law outlines a way to act towards one another and the world.

The Girl Scout Promise

On my honor, I will try:
To serve God* and my country,
To help people at all times,
And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

The Girl Scout Law

I will do my best to be
honest and fair,
friendly and helpful,
considerate and caring,
courageous and strong, and
responsible for what I say and do,
and to
respect myself and others,
respect authority,
use resources wisely,
make the world a better place, and
be a sister to every Girl Scout.

* The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate.

I doubt that Daisy Scouts engage in deep theological debate.

In a similar situation with Cub Scouts I found "there is that of god in every man" a useful text.

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I think if it's not what you want her to believe in (the God thing) change it.

THE GIRL SCOUT PROMISE

On my honor, I will try:
To serve others/the world/mankind/humanity and my country,
To help people at all times,
And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

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JPB wrote:

Are you ok with the concept of the pledge without the godspeak?

Didn't answer this, sorry...

Yeah, the serve my country stuff makes me wince a bit but whatever, the rest of it is fine. Mostly. I'm not thrilled with "respect authority" part. (The last line of the pledge is "live by the Girl Scout Law," and that is:

I WILL DO MY BEST TO BE honest and fair, friendly and helpful, considerate and caring, courageous and strong, and responsible for what I say and do, and to respect myself and others, respect authority, use resources wisely, make the world a better place, and be a sister to every Girl Scout.[/quote] I don't see why "authority" doesn't fall under "others," but whatever. (We're more of a "question authority"-type crew...) (If you can't tell, I was never a Girl Scout, and E.G.'s parents tried to get him to be a Boy Scout several times -- his dad was an Eagle Scout -- but it was just too authoritarian for him.)

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Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are (to me) institutions to make children of a young age learn how to take orders. It's like a mini-boot camp. Sure, they learn how to do some cool stuff but it also teaches structure and discipline.

But that's just my opinion. Laughing

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I'm a dunce. I'm sitting right next to a girl scout troup leader so I asked her. She says that sozlet can skip that phrase entirely or substitute whatever would correspond to what is essentially a "higher purpose" when memorizing the promise. When reciting the promise with others, she could just remain silent during that part or, again, substitute something that means something to her. But of course check that with your troup leader.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are (to me) institutions to make children of a young age learn how to take orders. It's like a mini-boot camp. Sure, they learn how to do some cool stuff but it also teaches structure and discipline.

But that's just my opinion.

It depends on th e group leader. My son had a lot of fun in Cub Scouts but never wanted to move up to Boy Scouts. I think the longer they are in, the more indoctrination there is.

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That's interesting that they have substitution as a possibility on the website.

That makes me open my mind a bit to the whole thing.

I'd still talk with that other mother, and possibly email the leader.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are (to me) institutions to make children of a young age learn how to take orders. It's like a mini-boot camp. Sure, they learn how to do some cool stuff but it also teaches structure and discipline.

But that's just my opinion.

DUDE!! I mean, well, YES!! Thanks for saying that...it is a good primer for that.

(I didn't go to girl scouts, but I did 'sneak' into Army Cadets at 11. WAY better 'Camp Outs') Laughing

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Yeah, that's definitely part of my hesitation. I just signed her up to hang out and have fun with girls her age and there's this whole vibe I wasn't really expecting...

I followed Tai Chi's excellent advice and asked sozlet what "god" means. Her first response was "I dunno," but when I pressed she said, "I guess a boy angel. Like a wizard is a boy witch." Laughing

The substitution thing was in my first post btw, (that they allow it/ provide it as an option), I agree that's mitigating.

Whole other can o' worms I won't open but occurred to me -- this is happening through her school. Flyers went out through school, meetings are held at school, it's for kindergarteners at her school. Doesn't that mean there shouldn't be that God stuff? (It's a public school.)

I'm sure I could look it up but it's not something I'd want to press anyway, just a stray thought. (I already made enough of a nuisance of myself getting interpreters for PTO meetings.)

Anyway, I'm liking Noddy's idea of the god within, maybe will just have her say "god" and then we get to define what that means. :-?

Pretty sure I'll be contacting the leader via email and see what she has to say. She seemed pretty laid-back.

Thanks for asking your friend, FreeDuck! I suspect this person will say something similar.

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Swimpy wrote:

It depends on th e group leader. My son had a lot of fun in Cub Scouts but never wanted to move up to Boy Scouts. I think the longer they are in, the more indoctrination there is.

That's interesting Swimpy. I found there was less indoctrination the longer my sons were involved in scouting -- although maybe indoctrination is the wrong word as I'm thinking in terms of it being adult-authority-figure-lead. (Canadian scouting is based on the British model; I don't know if your organization is different.) By the time my sons got to "Venturers" (group older than Scouts @ 16 years old I think) they only had an adult advisor and planned all meetings, group activities etc. themselves. They even managed a week long canoe trip. The adult was there to keep them on track (and for insurance purposes I imagine) and no doubt to re-direct any really poor choices of action.

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Is she in agreement with serving her country? How does she plan to do that?

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I kinda agree with eoe....

I mean, no one is going to Force her to say the words, are they?

Sometimes, making any kind of deal about something is what draws peoples attention to it.

I've gone to a catholic church a couple times in the last decade, because I went with a friend to regularly attends. Being raised a catholic, the prayers memorized then will be burned in my brain forever, and it would have been the easist thing to just start reciting them outloud. But, I didn't. I just sat or stood quietly and repectfully, with my eyes slightly downcast and a serene look on my face. Not one person asked me why I wasn't saying anything out loud.

You may say "that's different", but not really. If I was in a synagogue, mosque or some other place like the Lions or Elks or I don't even know what, where they say a prayer, I'd just lower my eyes respectfully and contemplate dinner later on.

If anyone has the bad taste to ask the 5 year old why she's not saying the pledge out loud, she can say "we don't pray out loud".....period....it's the truth, your family doesn't pray out loud. Anyway, I really seriously doubt that any of the den mothers are these pledge police that will be closely monitor each kid to make sure they are saying each word, "with feeling".

"YOU! MARY ANN CARMICHAEL! I CAN'T HEAR YOU SAYING THAT PLEDGE! GIRLS, FLOG HER!!!"

To me, this is one of those situations where the hill is not worth dying on.

Your little girl wants to play and have fun with other little girls and I don't think a 10 second garble of words in the beginning of it should make any difference.

I suppose it's all well and good to teach your kids to be toughtful and comtemplative of their words and deeds, but they also need to learn that in sometimes in life you just need to mumble along with the rest, or stay silent for a few seconds, then get to have fun for the next hour.

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I think it is wrong for anyone to recite anything.

It's indoctrination.

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Tai Chi wrote:

Swimpy wrote:
It depends on th e group leader. My son had a lot of fun in Cub Scouts but never wanted to move up to Boy Scouts. I think the longer they are in, the more indoctrination there is.

That's interesting Swimpy. I found there was less indoctrination the longer my sons were involved in scouting -- although maybe indoctrination is the wrong word as I'm thinking in terms of it being adult-authority-figure-lead. (Canadian scouting is based on the British model; I don't know if your organization is different.) By the time my sons got to "Venturers" (group older than Scouts @ 16 years old I think) they only had an adult advisor and planned all meetings, group activities etc. themselves. They even managed a week long canoe trip. The adult was there to keep them on track (and for insurance purposes I imagine) and no doubt to re-direct any really poor choices of action.

I'm glad to hear that, Tai Chi. Maybe it's just my own prejudice showing.

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It may feel like less indoctrination.....because you've been indoctinated.

Sort of like grocery store Muzak and patriarchal tales that gender women based on their views of what femininity is--like that bloodthirsty Cinderella!!!

(Sorry. Issues....) Very Happy

My pastor was fired because he refused to recite some Baptist creed or something when his views were under questioning.

I think it's archaic.

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Lash wrote:

Sort of like grocery store Muzak and patriarchal tales that gender women based on their views of what femininity is--like that bloodthirsty Cinderella!!!

Would you expand on the Cinderella as bloodthirsty issue?

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Oh God (now what?)

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