65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 05:12 am
rl
Quote:
Darwin assumed evolution and lined up circumstantial evidence to try to make his case.

Finches beaks?
Total Untruth, Took im almost 30 years to "line up all this stuff and test each aspect . He spent over 3 years just soaking seeds in seawater to even initially speculate on whether biogeographic spreading of plants could occur by "rafting". He also spent 5 years on barnacles and then used about 5 pages in his bookt
Quote:
Now I will agree that the proof offered for evolution is unconvincing, largely circumstantial and based on assuming evolution in order to prove evolution.
. You will agree with who? yourself? Shows a mind not used to rigorous thought there RL. processes.
Quote:
Even Darwin was raised in a family of evolutionists.
the importance of Darwins Grandfather, Erasmus, certainly gives RL some "smokin guns". Why not say that Darwin came from a family of potters, physicians and poor poetry writers. Thats more to thetruth
Quote:
Finches beaks? C'mon.
Darwin never realized what he even had when he collected his birds . He never knew that all those birds were even finches until his "subcontractor" John Gould told him. His theory is not so much an AHA, EVOLUTION OCCURS. It was more"IF evolution occurs, I wonder how?"


Quote:
Have human beings who have large mouths evolved from those with smaller mouths?

Have humans with great hand eye coordination evolved from those without, thus improving the ability to hunt and gather food?


These are examples of variance within a species, a certain amount of these variations may(or may not) be selected for or against if theres a particular advantage or not. That selection, continued over many generations ,can yield some particular evolutionary modification. Maybe a bigger mouth individual who can be heard in the back row of the church when preaching the Creation of life.

Hunting skills were usually a cooperative community affair that , as language developed the species could hunt as a tribe. The evolution of tools was not a result of a Lamarkian leap, but tools were actually a "work around" for the clever little humans to overcome their own lack of "fangs and claws".

I always like a theory that is constantly going under review and sub assembly (and repeated discarding of what doesnt appear logical) , rather than a totally illogical "great knowitall in the sky" whose methods and evidence are not under study or scrutiny EVER.

When are the Creationists going to test their own theories with some evidence? Are you forgetting to do your own work and hope that people dont notice that your entire worldview is based only upon taking potshots at real science? Dje ever wonder why nobody's ever come up with Creationist evidence(except for that which has been clearly faked)?. Lets try to make arguments only on our evidence . Youd be SOL if that were a requirement. Even your arguments against evolution are naive and built on non-scientific assumptions. Eg, a Creationist idea of evidence is
" assuming the world is 6000 years old , lets try to make the parishioners believe in a new physics and chemistry that speeds up atomic decay" Thats not science, thats tales around a campfire by superstitious people who fear truth.
RL would, if left alone to run the world, would like to have all evolutionary science cease and we all just accept the Mooga Booga theory of Creationism or its bastid child ID.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 07:59 am
farmerman wrote:
RL would, if left alone to run the world, would like to have all evolutionary science cease and we all just accept the Mooga Booga theory of Creationism or its bastid child ID.


Awww, but I like the Talking Snake Theory, it's so visual and keeps a little kid's attention so well (just perfect for indoctrinating the young ones).

I especially like how God punished a snake by making it crawl on its belly for the rest of its days. That makes a lot of sense. What was the snake doing before that, flying through the air by farting really hard and turning itself into a javelin? The snake must have really feared that punishment, it must have thought, "oh please no, don't make me crawl on my belly, I don't know if I can live like that, please, anything but that".
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 03:02 pm
More proof
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 03:17 pm
Since the world is so young, Colonel Saunder's menu must be rather suspect!
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 06:29 pm
rosborne979 wrote:


Interesting comparing your story

Quote:
T. rex thigh reveals chicken family ties
POSTED: 5:54 p.m. EDT, April 12, 2007

Chickens are distant cousins of the T. rex, researchers say
• Scientists studied protein from 68 million-year-old bone
• 'First molecular proof' of bird-dinosaur link


CHICAGO, Illinois (Reuters) -- Tiny bits of protein extracted from a 68-million-year-old dinosaur bone have given scientists the first genetic proof that the mighty Tyrannosaurus rex is a distant cousin to the modern chicken.



to this one

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/genetics/2004-12-08-chicken-genome_x.htm

Quote:
Posted 12/8/2004 5:11 AM Updated 12/8/2004 1:17 PM

Deciphered chicken genome sheds light on human DNA
By Malcolm Ritter, Associated Press
Here's something to ponder when you eat your next chicken wing: A new study says about 60% of the genes in the critter you're eating have close cousins in your own DNA.


Many critters have similarity in bits of their DNA to other critters, which is not surprising since they all share the same home, Earth, and draw sustenance from the same chemical base.

But inferences drawn such as the ones in your article, should be treated as inferences, not as newly discovered or confirmed 'facts'.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 07:01 pm
Your claim that such material should so-called "be treated as inferences, not as newly discovered or confirmed facts" encompasses everything and anything that counters your myopic fundamentalist Christian ideologies, while by the same token providing no evidence whatsoever for your belief in an anthropomorphic providential Christian god.

Classic hypocrisy & cliché to boot.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 07:29 pm
You didn't read the article, eh Chumly?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 08:29 pm
Why do you claim I did not?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 09:19 pm
real life wrote:
Many critters have similarity in bits of their DNA to other critters, which is not surprising since they all share the same home, Earth, and draw sustenance from the same chemical base.


It's also not surprising because they are related. Because they evolved from common ancestors (they are cousins).

We already know from fossil evidence that life evolved. But now we have even more information from genetics which confirms it and provides more detail.

Every living thing on this planet is a cousin to every other (unless they are an exact direct linneage), the only question is how far back is the common ancestor.

The infomation contained in DNA could provide a lot more detail which we didn't have before. The article above is just one example.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 09:42 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
farmerman wrote:
RL would, if left alone to run the world, would like to have all evolutionary science cease and we all just accept the Mooga Booga theory of Creationism or its bastid child ID.


Awww, but I like the Talking Snake Theory, it's so visual and keeps a little kid's attention so well (just perfect for indoctrinating the young ones).

I especially like how God punished a snake by making it crawl on its belly for the rest of its days. That makes a lot of sense. What was the snake doing before that, flying through the air by farting really hard and turning itself into a javelin? The snake must have really feared that punishment, it must have thought, "oh please no, don't make me crawl on my belly, I don't know if I can live like that, please, anything but that".



...very Ricky Gervais there Ros
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 09:45 pm
Eorl wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
farmerman wrote:
RL would, if left alone to run the world, would like to have all evolutionary science cease and we all just accept the Mooga Booga theory of Creationism or its bastid child ID.


Awww, but I like the Talking Snake Theory, it's so visual and keeps a little kid's attention so well (just perfect for indoctrinating the young ones).

I especially like how God punished a snake by making it crawl on its belly for the rest of its days. That makes a lot of sense. What was the snake doing before that, flying through the air by farting really hard and turning itself into a javelin? The snake must have really feared that punishment, it must have thought, "oh please no, don't make me crawl on my belly, I don't know if I can live like that, please, anything but that".



...very Ricky Gervais there Ros


Yeh, I think I stole most of that. I wasn't quite sure where I heard it, but I'm not that creative, so I figured I must have heard most of it somewhere before.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2007 09:52 pm
How about the he spider that got his head chopped off by the black widow; god does mysterious things to his creatures.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 10:27 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Many critters have similarity in bits of their DNA to other critters, which is not surprising since they all share the same home, Earth, and draw sustenance from the same chemical base.


It's also not surprising because they are related. Because they evolved from common ancestors (they are cousins).

We already know from fossil evidence that life evolved. But now we have even more information from genetics which confirms it and provides more detail.

Every living thing on this planet is a cousin to every other (unless they are an exact direct linneage), the only question is how far back is the common ancestor.

The infomation contained in DNA could provide a lot more detail which we didn't have before. The article above is just one example.


Your article was posted to make a case for a direct evolutionary relationship between reptiles and birds, due to similarities in the DNA.

When similarities in human and chicken DNA are cited, why aren't you making a case for a direct evolutionary relationship between them as well?

Your selective interpretation of evidence is classic evolutionary storytelling.

'Similarities in DNA indicate a direct evolutionary relationship.........except when they don't.' Laughing
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2007 05:20 am
Quote:
When similarities in human and chicken DNA are cited, why aren't you making a case for a direct evolutionary relationship between them as well?
What is it about common ancestry that you dont wish to understand?
The sum total of a chickens genome shows that the DIRECT relationship twixt it and a large upright lizard are more closely aligned than that of chicken v human. However, it does not negate any earlier relationships. A chicken and human have about 20% similar genomes, or about the amount youd expect since diapsids and synapsids diverged (about 255 million years ago, next Tuesday). As microbio further supports the "common ancestry" idea that Darwin first proposed, how simple and elegant his little "argument" has been borne out.

Even IDers are taking a "plan B" approach by stipulating that certain organisms and organ groups have probably evolved but key "start up" lines were products of "specified complexity".
Ive gotta give you credit for sticking with a supernatural explanation that seems to be withering under the growing mountain of evidence there RL . I dont see any Creationist Research being planned on the various websites. Is Liberty U and Ave Maria U getting desparate for something relevant?.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2007 06:41 am
I get a laugh at the feeb attempts that the Creationists try to mount. In this example from "EVOLUTIONNEWSDOTORG, the Sub-assemblists of the ID/Creation gang have brought out their big argument that the T-Rex that showed collagenous soft tissue, was , perhaps, not 68 million years old but was something younger . Even though the Formation has, indisputably shown us, stratigraphic correlation, sedimemntology data, paleomagnetic data,structural data and the formation lies beneath the "iridium layer" thats regionally been established as the Chixclub event. However, we will never see any counter argument based upon any field data to demonstrate their "idea of a younger earth"

Read the article with the Creationists viewpoint at the end
Quote:
Proteins Found Preserved in T. rex Bone 04/12/2007
Preserved fragments of collagen have been found in a dinosaur bone alleged to be 68 million years old. Read all about it in Science Daily. Analysis of soft tissue found by Mary Schweitzer and team turned up the recognizable protein fragments. Protein was also detected in soft tissue from a mastodon said to be half a million years old.
?When an animal dies, protein immediately begins to degrade and, in the case of fossils, is slowly replaced by mineral,? the article states. ?This substitution process was thought to be complete by 1 million years.? Here?s how the original paper in Science1 put it:
It has long been assumed that the process of fossilization results in the destruction of virtually all original organic components of an organism, and it has been hypothesized that original molecules will be either lost or altered to the point of nonrecognition over relatively short time spans (well under a million years). However, the discovery of intact structures retaining original transparency, flexibility, and other characteristics in specimens dating at least to the Cretaceous suggested that, under certain conditions, remnant organic constituents may persist across geological time.
Veteran dinosaur hunter John Horner was a co-author of the paper. MSNBC News mentioned that he?s sending 100 people on nine research teams to look for more examples of soft tissue preservation. Schweitzer kept a positive spin on this surprising finding. She said in the Science Daily article, ?This information will help us learn more about evolutionary relationships, about how preservation happens, and about how molecules degrade over time, which could have important applications in medicine.?
This story is being widely reported, such as on National Geographic, the BBC, Associated Press and Live Science. All but Science Daily gave the most prominence to the part of the story alleging this is evidence of an evolutionary relationship between dinosaurs and birds. Shocked as they are about the preservation of soft tissue and protein, not one of the articles questioned the age of 68 million years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Schweitzer et al., ?Analyses of Soft Tissue from Tyrannosaurus rex Suggest the Presence of Protein,? Science, 13 April 2007: Vol. 316. no. 5822, pp. 277-280, DOI: 10.1126/science.1138709.


ALL THIS FROM HERE ON IS SOME CREATIONIST ARGUING FOR A YOUNG MATRIX AND, THEREFORE, A DINOSAUR OF SOME AGE MUCH YOUNGER THAN CRETACEOUS, MAYBE 1000 to 3000 YEars ago. YET he ignores all the supportive data from other branches of geo and chem and geophysics.



How can they completely ignore the big question? Don?t just tell us this stuff did survive for millions of years?tell us how it could. Why should anyone accept the premise of long ages any longer in light of this powerful evidence against it? What do they think we are, a bunch of silly dupes who believe every yarn just because a ?scientist? says so? What?s more, many of the reports are spinning the story to promote even more evolutionary ideas. They are claiming the collagen protein sequence proves the evolutionary ancestry of dinosaurs and birds. Look: if this collagen is young, there was no evolutionary relationship. Get it?
What should have shocked and humbled the scientific community after decades of their now-falsified tales of dinosaurs being millions of years old has only fossilized the soft tissue of their consciences into rock-headedness. Read these articles in disbelief. Notice how nothing in secular science is fixed in stone except for faith in evolution and its requirement, ?geological time.?
Meanwhile, Motorola pagers across the country are buzzing with the MSNBC spin, ?T-rex analysis supports dino-bird link ? For the first time, researchers have read what they say is the biological signature of a tyrannosaur, a signature that confirms the increasingly accepted view that modern birds are the descendants of dinosaurs.? *Sigh.*
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2007 11:17 pm
farmerman wrote:
I get a laugh at the feeb attempts that the Creationists try to mount. In this example from "EVOLUTIONNEWSDOTORG, the Sub-assemblists of the ID/Creation gang have brought out their big argument that the T-Rex that showed collagenous soft tissue, was , perhaps, not 68 million years old but was something younger . Even though the Formation has, indisputably shown us, stratigraphic correlation, sedimemntology data, paleomagnetic data,structural data and the formation lies beneath the "iridium layer" thats regionally been established as the Chixclub event. However, we will never see any counter argument based upon any field data to demonstrate their "idea of a younger earth"

Read the article with the Creationists viewpoint at the end
Quote:
Proteins Found Preserved in T. rex Bone 04/12/2007
Preserved fragments of collagen have been found in a dinosaur bone alleged to be 68 million years old. Read all about it in Science Daily. Analysis of soft tissue found by Mary Schweitzer and team turned up the recognizable protein fragments. Protein was also detected in soft tissue from a mastodon said to be half a million years old.
?When an animal dies, protein immediately begins to degrade and, in the case of fossils, is slowly replaced by mineral,? the article states. ?This substitution process was thought to be complete by 1 million years.? Here?s how the original paper in Science1 put it:
It has long been assumed that the process of fossilization results in the destruction of virtually all original organic components of an organism, and it has been hypothesized that original molecules will be either lost or altered to the point of nonrecognition over relatively short time spans (well under a million years). However, the discovery of intact structures retaining original transparency, flexibility, and other characteristics in specimens dating at least to the Cretaceous suggested that, under certain conditions, remnant organic constituents may persist across geological time.
Veteran dinosaur hunter John Horner was a co-author of the paper. MSNBC News mentioned that he?s sending 100 people on nine research teams to look for more examples of soft tissue preservation. Schweitzer kept a positive spin on this surprising finding. She said in the Science Daily article, ?This information will help us learn more about evolutionary relationships, about how preservation happens, and about how molecules degrade over time, which could have important applications in medicine.?
This story is being widely reported, such as on National Geographic, the BBC, Associated Press and Live Science. All but Science Daily gave the most prominence to the part of the story alleging this is evidence of an evolutionary relationship between dinosaurs and birds. Shocked as they are about the preservation of soft tissue and protein, not one of the articles questioned the age of 68 million years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Schweitzer et al., ?Analyses of Soft Tissue from Tyrannosaurus rex Suggest the Presence of Protein,? Science, 13 April 2007: Vol. 316. no. 5822, pp. 277-280, DOI: 10.1126/science.1138709.


ALL THIS FROM HERE ON IS SOME CREATIONIST ARGUING FOR A YOUNG MATRIX AND, THEREFORE, A DINOSAUR OF SOME AGE MUCH YOUNGER THAN CRETACEOUS, MAYBE 1000 to 3000 YEars ago. YET he ignores all the supportive data from other branches of geo and chem and geophysics.



How can they completely ignore the big question? Don?t just tell us this stuff did survive for millions of years?tell us how it could. Why should anyone accept the premise of long ages any longer in light of this powerful evidence against it? What do they think we are, a bunch of silly dupes who believe every yarn just because a ?scientist? says so? What?s more, many of the reports are spinning the story to promote even more evolutionary ideas. They are claiming the collagen protein sequence proves the evolutionary ancestry of dinosaurs and birds. Look: if this collagen is young, there was no evolutionary relationship. Get it?
What should have shocked and humbled the scientific community after decades of their now-falsified tales of dinosaurs being millions of years old has only fossilized the soft tissue of their consciences into rock-headedness. Read these articles in disbelief. Notice how nothing in secular science is fixed in stone except for faith in evolution and its requirement, ?geological time.?
Meanwhile, Motorola pagers across the country are buzzing with the MSNBC spin, ?T-rex analysis supports dino-bird link ? For the first time, researchers have read what they say is the biological signature of a tyrannosaur, a signature that confirms the increasingly accepted view that modern birds are the descendants of dinosaurs.? *Sigh.*


Farmerman,

Would the TRex have to be still moving before you would admit it's not millions of years old?

Soft tissue inside! C'mon , think.

And dozens of specimens with soft tissue inside have been identified, not all from the same formation and not all buried under the same conditions.

You state 'the formation is 'indisputably' millions of years old'.........

...........even though here is evidence which clearly calls this into question.

The dating methods that are based on so many assumptions and produce contradictory results deserve to be called into question, but apparently you've still got the blinders on. Go figure.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 05:26 am
real life
Quote:
Soft tissue inside! C'mon , think.

The T rex is approximately 68 million years old next week.Soft tissue is the description used by the news media. It had to be extracted out of a hard crystalline matrix and then made pliable by chemical means. I once said before that waxes and soft materials are not uncommon in many formations that contain organics. Special conditions provide special results. Heres an example that extends the conditions that allow preservation of soft tissue without silicate exchange.
I know of soft waxes and oils and keragen deposits in coals that are 250 million years older than the T Rex in the spotlight. Paleontologists and geochemists are trying to understand the conditions that yield pockets of soft tissue in mineralized bone deposits. We havent decided to chuck out all science because weve found another neat feature of fossilization. PS the sciences that wed have to heave out with the bathwater include most of what we know in chemistry, physics, and geology suerly weve been doing something right all along.
BTW Whats your substitution science based on? some passage in the Bible? No you cmon.
Quote:
The dating methods that are base d on so many assumptions and produce contradictory results deserve to be called into question, but apparently you've still got the blinders on. Go figure.


You keep repeating this mantra about flaws in the dating procedures yet you havent shown one bit of skill or training or even fmiliarity on how the many methods are employed, based on, or calculated. Youre critiques arent worth the screen space and why should anyone spend time explaining to you when you wouldnt listen anyway?. Youre just a Bible schlepper with no base in knowledge about the physical world. If youd take time and do a little study you could sound a little intellegent. The T Rex in question was all "petrified". The soft tissue , in its crystalline matrix,was located within a FOSSILIZED bone cavity that was broken for packing. This dinosaur came from a well known deposit that has been established in age by at least 5 or 6 coalescing quite solid and rigorous techniques. (All of which you are apparently ignorant)
The reason I posted theop ed above was to fish out the Creationists like yourself. Might I note that in what youve attempted to critique, youve only used terms of incredulity and folksy sounding "cmon's" and such. Youve not responded in any kind of scientific rigor to speculate how the entire Hell Creek Formation, which comfortably(and conformably) lies beneath the Chixclub meteorite impact layer as well as the entire Cenozoic strata (which includes the prolific oil beds of the Eocene and Oligocene). Therefore we have about 1-2 miles of unaccounted sediment that must have been laid down over the dinosaur then been eroded off by rapid series of desertification and stream channels (Oh yeh and theres that disturbing amount of recent vulcanism that predates human habitation , as well as the series of Canyonlands unconformities which mean that something was missing in between T Rex and post cretaceous time..Theres a lot of Uniformitarian Time tween him and us.
Your lack of knowledge does not seem to stop your eagerness to comment in areas that youre totally unfamiliar and equally unqualified.


Notice-I havent even brought up the issues of radioactive decay from overlying deposits.

Your Bible is a story book with some moral overtones, please stop trying to force fit it as scientific insight. Even the scribes of the Books got the natural science all wrong

Ya know, Ive been patient, hoping that some day youd be able to present some evidence about your young earth assertions. Im a very patient guy but Ill bet a silver dollar that youll never present anything Why not? because your assertions arent based upon fact, theyre based upon legend and myth. We all know that youll never find the ARK, youll never be able to provide a good explainable"flood" stratigraphy for the earth, youll never be able to interlock high activity/short half life and low activity/long half life radionuclides Youll also never be able to present a cogent fact based theory that explains biogeography or cladistics of life on the planet.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 06:35 am
Farmerman,

Specimens of known recent origin commonly yield 'dates' of hundreds of millions or even billions of years using various 'dating methods'.

Old earthers respond 'Well! Everybody knows that X dating method isn't used below ***,***,*** years. It is accurate when dating very OLD specimens! How foolish of you to use this!'

Isn't that the point? The specimen must be ASSUMED old to PROVE it is old by the dating method.

Moreover, the use of various 'dating methods' on the same sample invariably yields a different date for each method used. 2 methods-- 2 dates, 3 methods-- 3 dates.

'Well! At least the dates are all OLD!' is the response.

Yeah, we covered that a moment ago. Laughing
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 06:38 am
real life wrote:
Farmerman,

Specimens of known recent origin commonly yield 'dates' of hundreds of millions or even billions of years using various 'dating methods'.

Old earthers respond 'Well! Everybody knows that X dating method isn't used below ***,***,*** years. It is accurate when dating very OLD specimens! How foolish of you to use this!'

Isn't that the point? The specimen must be ASSUMED old to PROVE it is old by the dating method.

Moreover, the use of various 'dating methods' on the same sample invariably yields a different date for each method used. 2 methods-- 2 dates, 3 methods-- 3 dates.

'Well! At least the dates are all OLD!' is the response.

Yeah, we covered that a moment ago. Laughing


So, what's your proof that the earth is 6000 years old? I might have missed that somewhere in this thread.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 07:19 am
Some people have difficulty with "relationships." They seem to miss the most important point; 6,000 vs 4.5 billion years old.

Different methods may yield different results, but there must be a hiararchy of which one is deemed to produce the most accurate data. o=Or in combination, the best estimate. DUH!
0 Replies
 
 

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