65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 03:59 am
real life wrote:

Yes, well perhaps I am talking to myself. I'm well aware that sooner or later, evolutionists tend to fall back to 'you guys are stupid' as the answer to everything.

I've seen it time and again here.

I just try to keep myself (not always as successfully as I wish) from sinking to that.


Experience indicates (to me at least) that there is no discussing or debating anything with evolutionists, no such thing as ever having the last word with them, no possibility of them ever learning anything or anything like that. It's not as if evolution were any sort of a science theory which they could let go of when the evidence reaches a certain critical mass or anything like that at all; we're talking about lifestyles here and about an ideological doctrine disguised as a science theory which is used to enable lifestyles and attitudes.

Nobody defends any sort of a science theory the way evolution is defended, i.e. to the last man, at all costs, and the evidence be damned. Only religions, ideological doctrines, and lifestyles are defended like that.

I am personally convinced beyond any doubt that evolution is junk science and that, as junk science goes, it is a spectacularly dangerous and evil variant of junk science, which was largely responsible for the world wars and totalitarian regimes of the past century, and I am convinced that it needs to be gotten rid of. I am also convinced that the only way that can be done is to teach the world to laugh at evolution and at evolutionists.

It's like CS Lewis said, above all else, the devil cannot tolerate being mocked. Evolution will die out in America when it reaches a point at which a professor or teacher cannot stand in front of a classroom and talk about it without seeing eyes roll back, hearing snickering in the room, and generally being made to feel as if he were in a Rodney Dangerfield movie.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 04:14 am
gungasnake wrote:

It's like CS Lewis said, above all else, the devil cannot tolerate being mocked. Evolution will die out in America when it reaches a point at which a professor or teacher cannot stand in front of a classroom and talk about it without seeing eyes roll back, hearing snickering in the room, and generally being made to feel as if he were in a Rodney Dangerfield movie.


What delightful irony.

At least the evolutinist lecturer has the courge to look in the rolling eyes of its critic, answer the questions of the raised hand, endulge in the process of discovery, debate, and honors requests to go further. The creationist lecturer is the coward looking at his shoes all while standing on his soapbox while his lecture hall is full of unanswered raised hands.

What delightful Irony.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 05:49 am
Alas, there is nothing new from gungas last repost of his "inflamed links" list.
Im too busy getting ready for my next trip to Argentina where we are actually doing thermoluminescence dating and 14C sampling and adsorption ratio kinetics between stabel and radioactive Carbon: 12C/13C and 14C trying to isolate alluvial ground water basins and identify specific areas of "economic" interest. We are using a method of chemical "Uniformitarianism" to produce quantitative results. All the rules of dating and geology that gungas self-published links try to "debunk" are just nonsense. Nobody is gonna spend big bucks to go out mining with a trechnique that just doesnt work. Why in oil field basin analyses alone, the application of Stable isotope sorption kinetics and systematic paleontolgy has increased our "Oil hit rate " to about 75%. Back in the wildcat days, drilling by luck and "no science except go for the Eocene" had only a 1 in3 to 1 in 7 hit rate, so we must be doing something correct and the overlap of pinpoint seismic,and stratigraphy has really made oil exploration a much more quantitative tool. SO much so that we can budget our drilling programs by as close as 10%, no more "drill and go bust" technology. This fact alone tells gungas partners that they are quite incorrect

I read , with some inetrest, gungas link on 14C and found it kind of "pre digested and full of no-thinking" . It assumes that the phenom of 14C as a measurable quantity is an incorrect methodology to start and that everything "sort of" clusters around a Flood. The author does not account for the fact that 14C is "recalibrated" for such events as the industrial revolution and production of natural 14N, and the recalibration that all 14C labs go through recal dilutions due to past nuclear tests (values that are 99.99% accurate for deviations >100pmc for test dates that mostly ended in 1969 (Mazor 95). The correlation between 14C and tritium in ground water from all samples has long been accurately QA'd (Verhagen 1974) so this is really old news. Im amazed that these self publ;ished "experts" that gunga likes to dig up are even able to show their faces at symposia(maybe some of gungas sources are dead )

The interesting thing is that 14C is cross calibrated by many different ways (within its temporal range) NOONE is doing 14C of dinosaurs, its a waste of money and I think weve discussed the fallacies of th Creationist reasoning on this point to death. Methodologies like thermoluminescence, tree-rings (back to about 12000BP) glcial varve calibration, fossil pollen calibration, as well as other radioisotopes like Beryllium and Bismuth.

Actually, the only thing I found new in gungas "link rant" {PS gunga, Ive never realized that you consider yourself in a societal "war"} I certainly hope that you save some time to smell the roses.. As I was saying, the only thing I found new and exciting was the "Archerfish disproove evolution" . Now thats a bold statement and I hope that you have some evidence. After all, we have been reminding you that most of your links are printed in large Crayon sized letters (sorta the way Om Sig David writes) that , for the most part--are evidence free.

I certainly hope that the archerfish wont be lost in a parade of flaming links.

As far as "evolutionists" being nuts and flakes, I supose that you only condier "name calling" important when someone flings one at you. Even RL, had stated that toning down the invective does do a lot to ramp up the credibility of a post. I hope that maybe you could calm your wheels abit and maybe people will try to talk more respectfully with you. I know Ill try.

Anyway, I hope that someone finds some more significant Bauplan and behavioral data on the archerfish. Some qiuestions that need to be answered before we can make your statement valid.

Where does the archerfish live?

Is its habitat a unique one? does it have any parallel "Archerfish wannabees" elsewhere on the globe?

If the biogeography of its habitat is unique, why is it?

Are there a family of proto or foundation archerfish seen in a fossil record? where?

Whats the ethological significance of the archerfishes spit gunning?

Is there a morphological feature, like a cleft in the fishes lips that accomodate this hunting practice

Is there a preferred way of shooting bugs and do all archerfish demonstrate similar skills? (ie is it learned or instinctual?)

I remember when woodpeckers, with their convoluted tongues were considered "proof positive" against evolution. That was until a number of "inyermeiate fossils of picidae were seen to have developed a "tongue port" through time so that the practice of digging for insects in rotten wood, "redqueened" its own growing tool for lapping up the insects. Now the CReationists just say "shut up and deal"

As far as your Goebbels and comparison to Charles Darwin, its kind of silly if you ever knew the biography of Darwin and his extended family including the Wdgewoods and Covingtons
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 06:18 am
In its strictest sense, the second LAw of Thermo does NOT drive evolution. It is, however, a convenient point of reference for an energy budget of the living state but Im still a lone wolf in that Ive gone on in writing that evolution ALWAYS begins in an individual and, if positively selected, only then migrates to an entire population. Therefore, for evolution to be a valid mechanism, we must have the organism be
1ALIVE (therefore its entropic state is=0)

2REPRODUCTIVELY ACTIVE


Remember the second law is stated as


(T {etmperature}) X dS{entropy} - (Dq) {heat absorbed by the system} > 0 , for non reversible dS=Dq/T

for a reversible state (alive) dS=0.

I am forced to agree with RL on this point, not for any reason that casts doubt on evidence for evolution. I am just maintaining my personal consistency in how evolution is defined at a "micro" level.

If one were to look up 'Thermodynamics of the living state and Gibbs free enrgy, wed see compelling arguments on both sides of the fence, so we aint gonna pull that foreskin of science back any farther here.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 09:15 am
Diest TKO wrote:
gungasnake wrote:

It's like CS Lewis said, above all else, the devil cannot tolerate being mocked. Evolution will die out in America when it reaches a point at which a professor or teacher cannot stand in front of a classroom and talk about it without seeing eyes roll back, hearing snickering in the room, and generally being made to feel as if he were in a Rodney Dangerfield movie.


What delightful irony.

At least the evolutinist lecturer has the courge to look in the rolling eyes of its critic, answer the questions of the raised hand, endulge in the process of discovery, debate.....


That's what all the lawsuits and blackballing are about then??

Try asking yourself one question: would somebody who had any real answers be doing all this crap that we read about?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 09:34 am
gungasnake wrote:
we're talking about an ideological doctrine disguised as a science theory


Oh, I get it. This is all just a new conspiracy theory to you. Evolution isn't 'disguised' as science, it's indistinguishable from science, because it's a pure result of science. I suppose you think there's a secret cabal of 'evolutionists' hiding in a dark room scheming about how to bury the true meaning of the evidence from other scientists.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 10:51 am
Quote:
That's what all the lawsuits and blackballing are about then??


Gunga has trouble with abstract concepts like the extablishment clause. If its not written in 48 point copy in blaze orange over a black background and isnt self published by someone with zero credentials gunga wants nothing to do with it.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 11:18 am
farmerman wrote:
Gunga has trouble with abstract concepts like the extablishment clause. If its not written in 48 point copy in blaze orange over a black background and isnt self published by someone with zero credentials gunga wants nothing to do with it.


He prefers conspiracy to reason, and has a streak of the anarchist in him. He's hard to classify. A rare breed, likely to be overlooked in the future fossil record.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 01:12 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
gungasnake wrote:

It's like CS Lewis said, above all else, the devil cannot tolerate being mocked. Evolution will die out in America when it reaches a point at which a professor or teacher cannot stand in front of a classroom and talk about it without seeing eyes roll back, hearing snickering in the room, and generally being made to feel as if he were in a Rodney Dangerfield movie.


What delightful irony.

At least the evolutinist lecturer has the courge to look in the rolling eyes of its critic, answer the questions of the raised hand, endulge in the process of discovery, debate.....


That's what all the lawsuits and blackballing are about then??

Try asking yourself one question: would somebody who had any real answers be doing all this crap that we read about?


I guess it depends on who you're reading. As for the lawsuits, don't make me laugh. I'd like to see action like that to remove evolution from schools on a national level. It surprizes me in the least that in some small rural town in a red state that creationism is taught and evoltion is illegal.

How does one even teach creationism? The details just arent there. It would be like teaching WWII and not being able to give dates, names, places. Creationism is not teachable.

Gunga - You still have faild to provde any variance in any of your "findings."
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 01:18 pm
Should be obvious, but.... the lawsuits and blackballing which one keeps on reading about are NOT the hallmark of people or theories which are winning in the marketplace of ideas. They are the unmistakable traits of losers.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3083

Quote:

Dr. CAROLINE CROCKER (Intelligent Design Proponent): So is it OK to question evolution? Well, let me tell you from personal experience, people lose their jobs for doing it. So it is a--is it OK? Yes. Is it safe? No.....
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 01:23 pm
Evolutionite censorship
http://www.rae.org/censor.html

Censorship of Information on Origins

Author: Jerry Bergman


ABSTRACT

Surveys of various indexes and library lists consistently find that recent literature favorable to creationism is rarely found in university, college or public libraries. That which is found, is often outdated, printed in the 1920s or before. In addition, interviews with creationists reveal that if authors are known as creationists, their articles, regardless of the empirical merit and quality, are most often rejected for publication. At times they are accepted, but when the creationist persuasion of the authors is discovered, they are not uncommonly rescinded. Even articles discussing censorship of creationism are often censored from journals which deal with library censorship. Many creationist authors have reported they often do not even receive the courtesy of a rejection letter, and often letters inquiring about the articles are ignored. Some creationists find far more success when they publish under a pseudonym or stay in the closet about their creationism. Censorship because of the philosophical and religious orientation of the writer is clearly bigotry.

INTRODUCTION

The mass media commonly reports attempts to censor pornographic literature from libraries, yet rarely discusses a far more harmful form of library censorship, that of Christian or pro-moral works.(3) Surveys consistently find that quality materials of recent copyright date favorable to the intelligent design world view are rarely found in American university, college, high school or public libraries.

WHY THE CENSORSHIP?

Increased exposure to an idea improves the likelihood of its acceptance. A primary reason why some form of evolution is accepted by about half of the American population is because of the high level of public exposure that this belief receives in public schools and also on television, in magazines and elsewhere.(4) Of 38 individuals interviewed as to why they accepted evolution, Bergman (5) found that all but three had very limited knowledge about the theory. Most had simply assumed from their cultural exposure that the theory has been empirically demonstrated to be true. The theory of naturalistic evolution is most often not directly, but more often subtly, taught and assumed in textbooks to be an accurate view of reality. It is in this way that students learn about the theory, not by careful evaluation of the empirical evidence and logic for and against it. As Eidsmoe notes:

'In public schools, evolutionary naturalism is commonly taught as fact. Zoos, museums, cultural exhibits and national parks proclaim the evolution of life and rigid uniformitarian geology. Despite pious claims of neutrality and equal access, public television presents Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" along with other evolutionary programs, while ignoring the other side. The public is bombarded with evolutionary thought wherever they turn--much of it at the taxpayers' expense.(6)

A major reason for this one-sided differential exposure that exists in the secular world is that pro-creationist materials and information are heavily censored from the public domain.(7-10) If it is discussed, the discussion is not uncommonly limited to a polemical diatribe littered with ad-hominem arguments. Anti-creationists rarely define the term creation, thus it is not easy to know who they dislike. They use much name-calling and value laden words such as pseudo-science, religious, or Bible-thumpers. The problem of blatant censorship of pro-creationist material is worldwide in its extent and effect. Ham stated that in Australia a librarian . . .wrote to us concerning the magazine Ex Nihilo, which was sent to the school as a gift subscription, from a concerned parent. ... Part of her letter reads as follows, "As the person responsible for selection of resources available from the school library, I . . . [request] your subscription officer remove the school's address from your current mailing list. Further, if other gift subscriptions arrive, please ignore them."

Ham's comments on this situation are as follows:

Surely, the materials in a public school library should make available all possible . . . resources to the students and teachers. To allow one person's beliefs to ban this publication from the school library, and not even allow others to have it for consideration in their research, is a dangerous precedent.(12)

Individual examples such as these illustrate a problem which all surveys demonstrate is widespread and pervasive. Melnick concluded that:

"Creationist literature has been self-censored from nearly every major secular university library in America. An OCLC computer search . . . indicated that of the over 3,000 institutions on the OCLC list, only 33 subscribed to the Creation Research Society Quarterly, [which is] without question the preeminent journal in the field of scientific creationism and read throughout the world. When one subtracts all the Bible colleges and seminaries . . . barely enough other schools [are] left to count . . .[Creationist] Wilder-Smith, who studied natural sciences at Oxford and holds three doctorates, recently published . . . a strictly scientific text which can stand up to any university work on evolution. It is currently available at only eighteen institutions on the OCLC's list. By contrast, Dorothy Nelkin's book, Science Textbook Controversies and the Politics of Equal Time . . . is already available at over four hundred institutions. Better examples could be cited." (13)

The writer replicated Melnick's study and, although not as extensive, his basic conclusions were fully supported. I found, for example, that the only book in print on discrimination against creationists, The Criterion, as of November, 1994 was in a grand total of five libraries of the 5,000 in the system-yet the few anti-creationist titles checked were in hundreds of libraries. In another study of censorship, Professor Balogh concluded that:

"Creationist theories are censored in the schools, in the media, and in textbooks published by major publishers. Libraries, even if they want to, find it difficult to stock creationist books."(4)

AN OHIO LIBRARY SURVEY

The author surveyed both the Defiance College Library and the Defiance Community Library in Defiance, Ohio. The college was founded in 1857 by the Disciples of Christ, and is still nominally connected to this denomination; many of its faculty and administrators are ordained ministers. I added two new categories to the form used by Melnick, namely anti-creation and the Scopes trial. Neither category seemed to fit into Melnick's list: books on the Scopes trial do not necessarily deal with creation or evolution, but primarily with the trial. The anti-creation books were written specifically to attack creationism, and thus required a special category.

The religious sections contain a large number of books, especially at the Defiance College, so that it was often difficult to categorize them. I located at Defiance College 243 books about pagan religions, 28 on atheism and 9,537 which dealt primarily with Christianity, Judaism, Islam, the history of Protestantism and biblical studies (see Table 1). Even in the public library (which was relatively small) were a total of 1,091 books in the religion category.

One noticeable trait about the creation books was that most were printed in the 1930s or 1940s, and only four were printed after 1970. On the other hand, the anti-creation books were all copyrighted in the last few years. In addition, many of the creation books advocated a 'liberal creation view'.

In both libraries were only a total of three books published by the Institute for Creation Research.

Another problem was classifying the books. Some works listed in the card catalogue were listed as 'missing', and the same book was occasionally listed in several places. A book primarily on witchcraft may be listed under witchcraft, mythology or even ghosts.

TYPE OF BOOK


DEFIANCE COLLEGE LIBRARY


DEFIANCE PUBLIC LIBRARY

Pro-Creation Science


13


3

Anti-Creation


10


4

Pro-Evolution Science


192


62

General Religion


9.537


1.091

Occult 'Science'


16


30

Mythology, Ghosts, Witchcraft


142


115

Scopes Trial


2


4

This is especially a problem with the evolution category, because books on creationism were also sometimes listed under evolution. The writer endeavored to eliminate duplications, but without a systematic comparison, and especially given the large number of books in some categories, this was difficult. It was nonetheless clear from both this survey and all previous ones that a clear bias against the creation position, however defined, exists.

Advocacy of this censorship is commonly espoused in print Bridgstock is blatant in his recommendation that librarians should 'not permit [creationist material] . . . onto the shelves of school libraries."(5) He alleges that this directive is reasonable because of the commonality of what he judges to be 'lies' and inaccuracies (the latter a common problem in all kinds of printed matter, as anyone who has done research is aware) in creationist publications. Even if this view is valid for the material he examined, one hardly excludes a specific position on a topic because some of the literature advocating it is poorly done.

In one of the most extensive literature reviews, Cole and Scott computer-searched 2.2 million articles printed from January 1978 to October 1981. They found: '. . . only 18 relevant items. Four of these were articles critical of scientific creationism as pseudo-science. Five references were to editorials that discussed the scientific and legal issues involved in attempts to promote scientific creationism in the schools, and nine items were letters to editors expressing opinions on the topic, some in favor and some opposed. None of the 18 items were in support of creationist concepts.

Because SCISEARCH lists only article titles, authors' names, institutional affiliations, and complete journal citations, our initial search might have missed articles whose titles did not include the key terms. Therefore, we undertook a search using the names of leading scientific creationists....The results of our second computer search were as revealing as those of the first. We turned up a total of 52 citations.

Only six of the 28 scientific creationists included in the sample had published any articles in SCISEARCH journals during the 45 months we surveyed. Two others had written letters to editors of SClSEARCH journals.

Only a letter by Henry M. Morris, however, dealt with creationism. None of the articles published by these six persons dealt with the concepts of creation-science. We found no articles [on] . . . creationism . . . The six creationists who had published articles in SCISEARCH journals did so in their own technical specialties. None of these articles espoused the assumptions and concepts of scientific creationism. Instead, they covered such topics as the chemistry and physics of food processing and packaging, microbiology culture techniques and methods, and simulation studies of loads, vibrations, and stresses in aircraft wing structures. '(l6)

This survey also confirms the finding that almost a complete ban on articles either by creationists or in support of creationism exists. It could also be self-censorship; that is, creationists know they have no chance of getting creationist papers published, so do not submit them.

HOW DOES THIS CENSORSHIP OCCUR?

Most libraries purchase materials primarily from publishers that they view as 'approved' or mainline such as Harper and Row or Garland. Those that publish primarily 'religious' material are viewed as 'not objective' and libraries often will not order, or even shelve, works by them.'(7) Even liberal, older religious publishers are affected by this prejudice, although not as greatly. And most secular outlets will not publish a pro-creationist book.(18) The reason is partially because most send their manuscripts out for professional review, and secular reviewers generally do not evaluate intelligent design works favorably. A book review by Patterson(9) illustrates this antagonism, which is expressed not only against the creationist position, but theism in general. This review explains that only an atheistic philosophical stance is generally viewed as appropriate for a scientific work:

"The concept of the supernatural has roughly the same status in science as does the concept of perpetual motion in thermodynamics, . . . the supernatural has been so thoroughly discredited, so consistently and so many times, that it is no longer admitted in science, nor is any theory or model which depends . . . on the existence or active intervention of anything supernatural."

For the scientist. . . the universe has only two domains . . . the natural one, and . . . imaginary delusions, errors and mistakes . . . There is no supernatural domain . . . the history of science has confirmed the atheists world view so well and so thoroughly that science has had to declare itself atheistic in all essential details . . . honest scientists . . . deny all supernatural things credible status; they exist only in the domain of imaginary delusions. The situation is quite analogous to that of perpetual motion which was also widely believed in at one time but which is now considered a symptom of scientific incompetence or derangement if the belief is seriously insisted upon . . .

For these reasons, then, I would consider, The Mystery of Life's Origin, . . . pseudo-science. It tries to convey the message that because serious gaps in current understanding exist, we should seriously consider the creation science [sic] hypothesis .... But that hypothesis depends crucially upon the existence and positive intervention of a supernatural agent to willfully create life by some miraculous (non natural) means. It is this aspect which molds my opinion and not the merits of [the book] ,20

The Mystery of Life's Origin is a scientific critique of chemical evolution, but also indirectly implies and argues for theism, and for this reason the reviewer was highly critical. Atheism must a priori be accepted, and to even imply that theism may be a valid view of the world could cause a secular reviewer to reject a manuscript not only in science, but other areas. This book was rejected by almost 100 publishers, and finally accepted by Philosophical Press (and shortly thereafter by MIT Press). At the 1990 American Scientific Affiliation Convention at Messiah College, Philip Johnson, a professor of law at the University of California at Berkeley stated: '. . . the director of the University of Pennsylvania Press was very interested in publishing my book critical of evolution, but the academic review process enabled the forces of darkness to prevail. One reviewer warned them in a friendly spirit that, if they published the book, they should not expect ever to get another science title. Also, out of bounds is any house which has a textbook interest. It takes a house which is interested in riling up the establishment to take on a book [against evolution] and I object to tying the issue to any political association [by going with a conservative publisher] but to get a book which is critical of evolution published, one has no choice. I think that that is unfortunate, but you may well imagine that this is not an easy topic to get a publisher to take a chance on. Of course, I was more concerned about having the association with a religious press than I was with the political association'. (Transcribed from the tape of his address to the entire conference).

Because of a 'danger of professional reprisals' creationists often publish anonymously.(21) The experience of John Howitt, an M.D. and superintendent of a large Canadian hospital, is typical. His book, Evolution: Science Falsely So Called, now in its 20th edition with more than a quarter of a million copies in print, was published anonymously because of concerns related to retaliation. It did not become widely known that he authored it until after he retired. This publication, interestingly, 'had a strong influence in making Dr. Duane Gish . . . an ardent advocate of creationism'.(22)

BOOK BURNING

The censorship problem is well illustrated in the history of the publication of the high school textbook, Biology: A Search for Order in Complexity, which had the input of a dozen or so Ph.D. level creationists. After approaching 15 textbook publishers 'not one of them would even look at the manuscript! (23) The textbook was finally published by Zondervan, an evangelical publisher. It sold well in Christian schools but made little headway in the public schools, although several states placed it on their 'Approved" list'.(24)

Then various court decisions actually 'banned' the book, and as a result, most school districts refused to even consider it. The book is void of open proselytizing and direct creationist content, and is very close in content to a standard biology textbook. A few statements infer that God's design can be seen in the structures the text discusses, but the text as a whole is well balanced, even briefly explaining evolution theory fairly well. Yet, because it was written by creationists and tried to look at both sides, it was banned in many states.

To be fair, although problems are common, there have always been some publishers that accept creationist material. One is a Phi Delta Kappa monograph in the prestigious fastback series on creation/evolution (Phi Delta Kappa is the honor society in education) which the writer published.(25) Dorothy Allford, a medical doctor, published Instant Creation-Not Evolution with Stein and Day, and Putnam published a work edited by Mosma, Behind the Dim Unknown. The chapter authors include Duane Gish, Russell Artist and George Howe, although several progressive creationists are included. Philosophical Library has also published several creationist books- not surprising in that they publish a wide variety of literature, from good science to far-out pseudo-science.

Nonetheless, this does not negate the fact that, in general, extreme censorship exists. In spite of it, or because of this problem, Morris(26) claims that the average publication record of creationists is the same as non-creationists in areas not relating to creationism, or their creationist conclusions must be heavily disguised. Morris also claims that the ICR staff publication record is typical of creationists worldwide, and that their ten scientists '. . . have published at least 150 research papers and ten books in their own scientific fields-all in standard, scientific, refereed journals or through secular book publishers-in addition to hundreds of creationist articles and perhaps 50 books in creationism and related fields.'(27)

The extensive literature review by Cole and Scott(28) also found that creationists publish science research in their field, but only non-creationist articles. Because these researchers publish in non-creation areas, often prolifically, demonstrates that they are competent and that articles espousing creationism clearly are censored. A few creationists, though, have actually been able to have openly creationist works published in secular journals. Dudley Whitney, an editor of various agricultural journals who later became a creationist, '. . . was also one of the few creationists in modern time who was able to get solidly scientific, frankly creationist, articles in established journals. In 1935, he published an article defending a young earth in the prestigious Annual Report of the Committee on Geologic Time, the paper having been invited by Dr. Alfred C. Lane, the eminent geologist . .'(29)

"Interestingly though, the publication of these frankly creationist articles," according to Morris, resulted in "such a prejudicial reaction that the journal finally had to close down." Unfortunately, Cole and Scott's statement(30) is all too true: "Creationists frequently claim that they do conduct research that supports . . . creationism. They argue that the scientific establishment that controls the selection of articles for the major journals is biased against their views. Thus . . . evidence for the unpopular view is suppressed."

In an examination of all literature printed in secular magazines about creationism from 1971 to 1994, a grand total of four articles out of over 4,000 were located which defended creationism, all of which were followed by one or more articles which tried to 'refute' the article supporting creationism.(3)' One appeared in Phi Delta Kappa, others in Academia, Creation/Evolution and Science Digest. The above literature search was not able to locate a single article in any secular magazine which defended the civil rights of creationists.(32)

Some creationists even have articles accepted which are never published after the publisher found out who they were. A reviewer of one article said 'Best article on topic I've ever seen!' yet it was rescinded. One journal even compiles a list of creationists from letters to the editor and other sources such as Creation Research Society Quarterly articles. Many creationists publish extensively but most all are closet creationists, and it is almost unknown for an outspoken creationist to publish in leading journals. Their papers are rejected by a 'referee process' which is often actually a board of censors. Many editors openly admit that they will not publish a paper that does not conform to their world view.

BIAS IN THE REVIEW PROCESS

One review of the library journals that publish book reviews revealed that, out of over 100,000 book reviews, hundreds of anti-creation books were reviewed, yet only a single review of a recently published pro-creationist work was found. This work was co-authored by a Harvard trained chemist who is not a fiat creationist, yet the reviewer called the book "self-serving," a "creationist's tract" and several other name-calling epithets.(33)

Consulting Books in Print and other book lists finds hundreds of books and monographs on creationism in print. Actually more exist in support of creationism than evolution (although the vast majority of the former were printed by religious publishing houses). Thus the bias exists at the first step in the library ordering process.

These are only a few of the reasons why recently published overtly creationist materials are not often found in public or even university libraries. Yet all of this is clearly against American Library Association policy, as shown in the following statement in The Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom. ". . . according to ALA policy as enunciated in the Library Bill of Rights and elaborated in the policy on Diversity in Collection Development, . . . Libraries should strive to include in their collections the broadest diversity of materials, including ones which may be personally offensive to the librarians ." (34)

The above ALA statement is related to the propriety of including the book, Jake and Honeybunch, a highly controversial work which is considered by some to be openly racist, in a library. The library journal concluded that if libraries refused to purchase this book because they personally objected to its content (which most reviewers admitted was highly objectionable) they were practicing censorship.(35) Melnick notes that librarians tend to find trivial reasons for excluding creation-science materials from their libraries'.(36)

Many librarians even classify creationist books as religion and anti-creationist books as science. Rectifying this problem has been made more difficult by journals on censorship censoring creationist articles on censorship. The empirical studies on censorship of creationist books cited above, that found that American libraries have on their shelves thousands of anti-creationist books yet few pro-creationist works, were sent to the American Library Association journal on censorship.(37) Yet, the journal did not even display the courtesy of rejecting the article. An update study in 1994 came to the same conclusions. For example, The Creator in the Courtroom by Geisler was in a mere 46 of the 3,000 libraries in the OCLC system, whereas Kitcher's anti-creationist Abusing Science was in 1,072. When creationists try to deal with this censorship, they are accused of trying to 'foist' their ideas on others by "packing libraries-especially in schools-with creationist materials, harassing those that . . . don't meet their quotas ." (38)

When creationists object to placing pornography or racist material in schools, they are labeled 'censors' and book burners.

CENSORSHIP OF PRESENTATIONS

Creationists are also commonly refused permission to present papers at scientific conventions. In many cases the rejection occurred even before the reviewer received the paper. James Clark, Department of Cell Biology at Baylor College of Medicine rejected a paper from a well known creationist even before it was received. In a letter of April 20, 1983 giving his reasons, Clark stated that, "We reserve the right to exclude any person from participating...[and creationism, we have concluded] . . . should be deliberately excluded from science classes and conventions."

This paper was rejected, not because of the content--it was not directly on evidence for creationism--but due solely to the author's own personal beliefs. Obviously, much that goes under the purview of science (such as evolution) is not science in the methodological sense. Evolution, being history, cannot be replicated, yet is not censored. The best a scientist can do is extrapolate from the present to the past.

In another instance, Ham relates the case of Snelling and Mackay who were denied the privilege of presenting a paper at a professional conference. In his words:

"As the battle continues . . . we can only expect even greater opposition . .. Dr. Andrew Snelling (our resident geologist) and John Mackay last year presented a paper at a secular, scientific conference on the origin of coal. It was very well received by many even though it . . . suggested most of the coal deposits [were not] . . . produced . . . as a result of slow processes in peat swamps over millions of years. It was a very technical paper with hundreds of hours of careful research and documentation. This year, John and Andrew again registered for the same conference to present further findings from their research, which is based upon observations of rock outcrops in the Newcastle area of New South Wales.

"However, this year the organizers of the conference wrote a rather emotional letter informing them that because they had 'misquoted' a scientist who spoke at the conference last year, they were not allowed to attend again this year. John and Andrew did not misquote the scientist concerned! The real problem, of course, is the fact that John and Andrew are creationists, and therefore . . . cannot be allowed to attend the conference!. . . The above example is typical of what usually occurs in response to creationists trying to have their material published (or otherwise heard) in secular circles. As soon as it is known that they are creationists, their material is usually barred from such publications and they are denied access to such conferences."(39)

Creationists are also commonly censored from speaking to secular audiences. And when they are permitted to make presentations, much heckling and obvious gross disrespect are not rare. Krug notes that,

'When . . . the famous creationist, Duane T. Gish . . . [lectured] on campus, he was mercilessly heckled by students and faculty alike, with members of the science department in the lead. At one point, Anthropology Professor Tim White strode onto the stage and thrust a human skull at the befuddled creationist, declaring "That s your ancestor! " '(40)

Although Gish was allowed to try to speak, he was certainly not freely heard. The writer has repeatedly had the same experience. Creationists are not uncommonly invited to speak on university campuses because many students view it as an opportunity to heckle and mock them for entertainment. The problem of a creationist's words being twisted, often to look foolish, ignorant or stupid, is so common that Ham states that the only condition on which he will be interviewed by the media is if it is a live presentation. In his words, there is a ... large amount of editing to a pre-recorded program. The clever dubbing that often follows, too frequently nullifies our presentation and reduces it to the level of comic opera. That is why, at the present time, we will only . . . consider interviews by any television or radio station provided they are transmitted live. We must also add here that, out of all the secular newspaper interviews we have ever had . . . there is probably not one written where we have not been quoted wrongly. (4)

Often the censorship is less open, but the effect is the same:

'. . . The Hillsdale College catalog proclaims . . . the commitment [the college] has made to the Judeo-Christian heritage. A question must then be raised in an institution where the liberating arts are stressed: Why is a renowned creation scientist who has contributed much to the study of the origin of the universe, written several books and debated the world's top scientists, not invited to speak in the biology department here at Hillsdale? Archie Allison, coordinator of the creation-evolution debate, said that memos were sent to faculty stating that Creation Scientist Dr. Duane Gish would be available to speak in classes.

Rodney Walker, sophomore biology major, gave information about Gish to Professor Platt in the biology department. Walker returned days later to inquire if Gish would be speaking in any classes and was told no. Said Walker, "I can't understand why they wouldn't let a person as renowned as Dr. Gish speak in class." . . . Professor Platt and Drs. Townsend and Heckenlively were consulted as to why Gish would not be presenting the creationist's perspective in their classes. Platt said that Gish's talk "was not on any topics we were discussing" and that there was much to do to keep classes on schedule. Platt, who attended the April 9 meeting, said he wished that more students and faculty would have been present. Heckenlively said that there was not enough time and added that Gish's topic did not relate to Bio-statistics.

Division Three chairman Samuel Townsend, who heard Gish speak years ago, said of the creation-science position, "It's not science." . . . "Evolution", said Townsend, "can be known by means of the scientific method." . . . Class schedules and unrelated topics may be justifiable reasons for not having a guest speaker. Yet, if the department truly desired to give a fair assessment of the whole issue of creation and evolution, time could have been set aside for one of the world s foremost scientists. It seems . . . the issue . . . may be, as Gish said, that "they are afraid of convincing evidence contrary to their views."

Whether creationism is a science . . . is not the issue here. The issue is the freedom of ideas presented in the classroom. Townsend said that he considers it dishonest not to allow creationism in the public schools. Yet, is it not equally dishonest to keep scientific creationism out of the collegiate classroom and only present the position of evolution when discussing the origins of man and the universe? With Hillsdale's Judeo-Christian heritage there should be an openness to both sides of the debate on creationism and evolution. Is it consistent with our mission to not allow the whole issue to be presented? (42)

CENSORSHIP OF CAMPUS MAIL

Also at Bowling Green State University the administrators tried, fortunately unsuccessfully in the end, to censor their campus mail. This writer had sent by campus mail to several of his fellow faculty members several articles about his litigation against the university then. This information evidently embarrassed several administrators. One stated that he objected to the writer using the campus mail to send this type of material. Shortly thereafter, the university established what they called a 'solicitation policy', which was blatant open censorship. The AAUP report stated:

'For the first time in the history of BGSU, the right of faculty members to use university facilities to communicate with each other is being restricted. The mechanism for administrative control of faculty communication is called the "solicitation policy". It prohibits . . . using the internal mail service [for] . . . distributing notices which contain derogatory or critical comments. Mr. Mason, executive assistant to the president, has been given the job of administering the "solicitation policy".(43)

The AAUP called this an 'insult to our profession' and printed information sheets that stated they were forced to pay for [mailing]... because the University Censor will not allow us to use the internal mail system. The outcry from the faculty was so great that the solicitation policy, although not rescinded, was modified.

CENSORSHIP IN TEXTBOOKS

Probably one of the most serious and common areas of censorship of support for the intelligent design world view and theism in general is from textbooks.(44) The writer's review of over 200 textbooks found virtually all of them assume a priori that God does not exist, rarely adopting even the agnostic position. A textbook he used for several terms, Anthropology, by Ember and Ember(45) assumed both atheism and 'reverse creationism', that is, humans created God, not the other way around. Not giving credence to even the agnostic view, the textbook teaches that God is a human creation thought up to explain that which cannot yet be explained by science (and when science fills the gap, the need for God will evaporate completely, the authors argue). The only valid question is how and why we created Him.

Several theories have been developed to answer these two questions. One says that we created God out of a 'psychological need' for a mental crutch to help us deal with the insecurities of life and explain certain events, such as the universe's existence. Another view is that 'the God belief' is functional because it unifies society, facilitating social harmony and societal bonds which reduce the likelihood of suicide and other problems that stem from Durkheim's concept of anomie. Another theory of why humans created God was developed by Karl Marx and teaches that the idea of God is used by the powerful to control the powerless.

The only legally acceptable position for American public schools, would be to take the agnostic view. This view would note that some people believe that God exists, others deny this belief. In this view, religion is seen as a cultural universal. Hypotheses about why religion exists could include the interaction of humans and God allowed humans to have learned about Him.

An example would be that which is learned through revelation as recorded in the Scriptures. Since all persons came from Adam (who clearly knew that God created him) this belief would be a universal heritage, modified only by time and local conditions. Thus, religion would be a cultural universal for this reason. This option could be presented in addition to the reverse creationism position, helping the text be fair and balanced by presenting both sides.

In endeavoring to find a philosophy book suitable for a Christian college, I was unable to locate a single one which presented even an agnostic position! All argued either vigorously or subtly (which is more pernicious because the indoctrination is less blatant, thus more palatable) for atheism. I have also never been able to find a suitable biology text for my college class in this area- all of them I have examined directly or indirectly teach atheism. This is clearly unconstitutional, yet is the norm in higher education. Not only do the textbooks argue for atheism, but in the writer's college classes, his science, and even philosophy professors almost without exception argued, at times vigorously, for atheism. Theism is commonly ridiculed and criticized, or at least is given little credence.

A text I finally selected, Philosophy and Introduction of the Art of Wondering by Dr. Christian concludes that four 'wild dragons' exist which man could not explain for eons, and thus resorted to the concept of God. These wild dragons-the origin of life, man, matter, and the universe-have now been 'tamed' by science. We now understand, he concludes, where life and humans came from, and no longer need to resort to a God hypothesis. And these explanations are, the book argues, more than a hypothesis.46 Quoting Cyril Ponnamperuma (who won a Nobel prize for his work) he concludes,

"We now know that once the right molecules accumulated at the right time and the right arrangement, life could begin almost instantaneously ."(47)

Is this not openly atheistic apologetics?-not to mention openly false.(48) Nothing close to life has ever been created in the lab by the world's most talented scientists working with billions of dollars of equipment. Evolution is assumed throughout the text to be factual (and this is not even a biology text), and is constantly referred to as the explanation for not only life, but for the existence of the universe itself. As 'we have demonstrated that life evolves, both the early stages and to man, belief in the Creator is, the text concludes, 'unnecessary'. It blatantly concludes that evolution is mankind's creator, not God, 'It produced him according to its criteria . . . [our] environment is the creator; man is the creature.'(49) In the words of Evans:

"Sources of hostility to religious belief in modern thought and politics are not far to seek; familiar enough, we may assume, not to require a long discussion .... The ... notion that religious faith is merely superstition and thus irrelevant to the world we live in, since its precepts have been supplanted or discredited by "science". All religions, in this view, are mystical efforts to explain things that have natural causes not yet deduced by reason. This too has been a leading feature of modern thought in virtually all its aspects. Such thinking is powerfully aided by the belief that Darwinian evolution offers scientific answers to questions about human life that were previously sought for in the counsels of religion."(50)

CENSORSHIP OF CREATIONISTS HAS A LONG HISTORY

As early as 1936 the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) agreed to consider a presentation by the Evolution Protest Movement (EPM) criticizing evolution on scientific grounds. A well articulated non-religious paper was sent to the BBC. After six weeks, it was returned with the remark, "We are of the opinion that the arguments in it are not of such a character as to constitute a basis on which such a debate should be arranged with a scientist who accepts the theory of evolution."

The EPM concluded that, "No one could be found to meet successfully the arguments in it." The rejected talk was reproduced with comments by the EPM.(51)

Several adherents of the EPM later wrote to the BBC to determine why information criticizing evolution was censored by the station. The BBC then claimed that it was 'quite prepared to consider for broadcast a positive expression of opinion by scientists of repute' who wished to criticize the theory. The EPM then asked Lt.-Colonel Davies, D.Sc., Ph.D., F.R.S.E., F.G.S. (the British are more title oriented than Americans) to accept the offer. The talk was prepared, and sent to Prof. A. E. Trueman for review. The BBC concluded from this review that the talk should be rejected because, "Although Trueman did not dispute the facts adduced by Davies, he thought that Davies "use" of these facts would "mislead " the public and "confuse" them as to the "actual state of affairs, (52)

Davies' rejected manuscript was later also published by the EPM. Although little outcry occurred among the secular press, some religious presses expressed much concern. The Scotsman reported that the criticism of the BBC for "an abuse of its monopoly calculated to undermine free speech in this country in presenting the subject of evolution" (53) was justified and that the BBC has almost consistently ignored the theistic position, focusing almost exclusively on the atheistic or agnostic viewpoint. The article asked, 'Could Communism do its nefarious job more insidiously and more thoroughly?(54) The secretary of EPM again wrote to the BBC, sending them the article from The Scotsman and requesting them to consider a series of talks or a talk which presented the case against evolution.

Three months later, after not receiving a reply, another copy and the clipping from The Scotsman was sent asking, if 'there is, in fact, a ban on any broadcast in which the scientific or Christian case against evolution is stated?' Their reply dated July 26, 1953, a full 17 years after the initial proposal, claimed that no ban on the presenting of the information against evolution existed, but this "does not mean that an obligation lies upon us to afford space for a broadcast such as you suggest."

They then, ironically, stated that if a script was submitted it will be expected "to be a contribution to the study of biological change, whether from a scientific or religious standpoint . . ." The BBC thus evidently accepted macroevolution as fact, and contributions must support only one position, that of evolution or 'biological change, whether from a scientific or religious standpoint," and they will not air the other side.

In a pamphlet published by The Evolution Protest Movement entitled, Pernicious Propaganda by the BBC; a Protest (undated), Douglas Dewar, F.R.S., concluded, for years, despite the protest of The Evolution Protest Movement, the B.B.C. has sedulously propagated the doctrine of organic evolution and refused to broadcast a talk dealing with the scientific objections to . . . [it].' It then discussed one evolutionist's presentation which, they concluded, comes "very near to establishing a record for the greatest number of controversial assertions uttered in so short a period of time." The opposers of evolutionary naturalism were not permitted to respond to this presentation.

In the Autumn of 1942, the BBC did a series of twelve broadcasts entitled, 'Man's Place in Nature'. In another pamphlet entitled, "The BBC Abuses its Monopoly" printed in 1947, Davies summarizes his frustration in endeavoring to respond to what he concluded were very one-sided presentations of evolutionary naturalism. The pamphlet delineated some of their concerns, and contained a review of the correspondence endeavoring to gain air time to respond to what Davies concluded were grossly inaccurate statements in this series. The conclusion was, '. . . it seems clear that the B.B.C. are refusing justice to the public who they now know to have been misinformed in matters of grave moment . . . to have allowed misleading statements to be given out, and then refuse us permission to broadcast anything on the other side, constitutes a gross misuse of the monopoly of the air [waves] granted to you by the Postmaster General.(55)

REMOVAL OF CREATIONIST BOOKS FROM LIBRARIES

Creationist books, even after having been catalogued and placed on the shelves, are commonly removed. Bowling Green State University had for several years subscribed to the Creation Research Society Quarterly at the request of a science faculty member. The writer, in endeavoring to locate the journal, discovered that it was not on the current periodical shelves, and that the several bound volumes of the journal were also missing. The writer strongly suspected censorship because he had previously overheard several professors mention that these journals should not be on the shelves for the reason that they 'may confuse students'. Melnick also investigated this matter, finding that it was a 'department' decision not to renew the subscription and library policy, they claimed, does not allow for what they call "spotted collections of periodicals," (56) Melnick concluded, "It certainly smacks of censorship somewhere along the line . . . and these are precisely the kinds of cases that need to be reported to the Office of Intellectual Freedom of the American Library Association."(57)

This writer and others wrote to them about this case, and they ignored all communications. Thus, we have the situation of one of the major journals focusing on censorship apparently censoring creationists' data on censorship! Interestingly, after these charges of censorship were made, the university elected to resubscribe, demonstrating that concern over censorship can bring a positive response.

ANTI-CREATION BIGOTS

Out of an effort to be tactful, writers about this topic often avoid the proper sociological terms when describing the anti-creationist bias discussed above. Specifically, anti-creationists are properly classified by sociologists as bigots. Although this is presently an emotionally laden word, it nonetheless describes a personality constellation of persons who express unreasonable hatred based on unfounded views towards an opposing group which they identify as 'they' in a 'we vs. they' dichotomy, and then highly inaccurately over-generalize about 'them'.(55) These persons are intolerant of not only the creationist world view, but creationists as persons.(59) This bigotry, although often blatant, such as Bridgstock's statement that 'Creationists are not like other people '(60) or Merle Bergman's that 'They do not have much of a grasp on reality '(61) is usually more disguised. For example, Finniss stated, "Unfortunately for creationists, evolution is . . . not theory but fact. Let s face the fact: We are related to the ape and every other form of life on this planet . . . Today, creationists [reject this view] .... Lets let them crawl back into their caves and leave the explanation of life to true scientists."(62)

A sociological examination of this quote reveals that it is replete with both over-generalizations and name-calling, both traits of a bigot. Although it is true that space may have limited full clarity, the name-calling and not bothering to define even basic words such as 'creationists', clearly reflects intolerance. The concerns of most creationists today were expressed well by James Watt, former Secretary of the Interior under President Reagan: "[In the Scopes trial] At issue was not whether the doctrine of evolution should take the place of . . . Creation. The question was whether the theory of evolution could be discussed at all, whether it could even be mentioned in the classroom. Interestingly enough, Scopes lost the trial; Darwin s theory could not be taught in the schools. But the result was a national public rebellion. Censorship was as wrong then as it is now. We believers in the Old Testament want the theories of both evolution and Creation taught. We modern conservatives are not afraid of discussion of all the possibilities of unproven theories. Unfortunately, in many school systems, the liberals have now censored the teaching of Creation. Yet is censorship by liberals right and by conservatives wrong? (63)

SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS

It has been documented that both discrimination and censorship against creationists are extremely common, especially in academia. A major response to deal with this problem is first awareness, and then to endeavor to be vigilant in dealing with individual issues as they arise at the local level. Secular humanists have responded in this way with a high level of success. Many libraries now contain pornographic literature, openly accessible to all patrons, that was illegal to distribute only a few years ago. Their activity and vigilance in this area has produced this state of affairs. Likewise, the censorship against creationists must be dealt with in similar ways. This situation must be understood for what it is-religious bigotry and intolerance.

REFERENCES

1. Nielsen, R., 1984. 'Book burning at the Library. Human Events, November 17,p. 19.

2. LaHaye, T, 1985. London schools ban famous books. Christian Inquirer, 15(6):22.

3. D'Souza, D., 1986. The new liberal censorship. Policy Review, Fall., pp. 9-15.

4. Morris, H. M, 1984. History of Modern Creationism, Master Books, San Diego, California, USA.

5. Bergman, J, 1994 The Public Acceptance of Evolution, unpublished paper

6. Eidsmoe, I, 1985. Books: 'The Criterion'. The Christian News, July 8, p. 12.

7. Thomas, C., 1983. Book Burning, Crossway Books, Westchester, Illinois, USA.

8. LaHaye, T, 1984. The Hidden Censors, Fleming H. Revell Co., Old Tappan, New Jersey, USA.

9. Melnick J. A., 1982. A reply to 'Creationism is not a science', Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom, Vol. 31, no. 3, May, pp. 75 76,109 111.

10. Melnick, I A., 1982. Personal interview.

11. Ham, K A. (Ed), 1985. Darwin school bans Ex Nihilo. Creation Science Foundation Prayer News, January, p. 2.

12. Ham, Ref. II, p. 2.

13. Melnick Ref. 9, pp. 110-111.

14. Balogh, S., 1985. Members' notable notes. Universitas, 17(2), February:2.

15. Bridgstock M., 1985. Creation science: you've got to believe it to see it! Ideas in Education, July, p. 11.

16. Cole, H. P. and Scott, E. C., 1982. Creation-science and scientific research. Phi Delta Kappa, April, p. 557.

17. Jenldrwr4 E., 1979. Censors in the Classroom, the Mind Benders, Southern Illinois University Press, Carbondale, Illinois.

18. Morris, Ref. 4.

19. Patterson, J. W.,1985. Review of The Mystery of Life's Origin by Charles B. Thaxton et al, January 14, p. 1.

20. Patterson, Ref. 19,p. 1.

21. Morris, Ref. 4.

22. Morris, Ref. 4, p. 109.

23. Morris, Ref. 4, p. 195.

24. Morris, Ref. 4, p. 195.

25. Bergman, J, 1979. Teaching about the Creation/Evolution Controversy, Phi-Delta-Kappa fastback Bloomington, Illinois, USA.

26. Morris, H. M., 1981. The anti-creationists. Impact No. 97, July

27. Morris, Ref. 26, p. iii

28. Cole and Scott, Ref. 16.

29. Morris, Ref. 4, p. 105.

30. Cole and Scott, Ref. 16, p. 538.

31. Bergman, J. and Wirth, K, 1996. The Creation-Evolution Controversy, Garland, New York (in press).

32. Bergman and Wirth, Ref. 31.

33. Beck, C. W., 1985. Review of The Mystery of Life's Origin: Reassessing Current Theories by Charles B. Thaxton et al, New York Philosophical Library, 1984. In: Choice, 22(6):834.

34. American Library Association, 1983. The Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom, March, p. 2.

35. Jenkinson, Ref. 17.

36. Melnick, I A., 1984. Censorship update 1984. Bible Science Newsletter, Vol. 23, NQ 2, February 1985, p. 6.

37. Bergman, J. 1983. A case of censorship. Bible Science Newsletter, Vol. 21, No. 12, December 1983, p. 6.

38. Berman,S.,1985. In the beginning: the creationist agenda Library Journal, 110(17):31-34 (p. 32).

39. Ham, K A., 1985. The battle rages. Creation Science Foundation Prayer News, June, pp. 2-3.

40. Krug, I, 1983. Whose free speech? Debate divides Berkeley. Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom, 32(3):96.

41. Ham, Ref. 39, p. 2.

42. Shoppy, L., 1987. Biology department not open to creationists' view. The Hillsdale Collegian, Ap. 6, p. 5.

43. AAW, Bowling Green State University Chapter, 1984. Censorship at BGSU, privately printed

44. Bergman, J. 1984. The Criterion; Religious Discrimination in America, Onesimus Publishing Company, Richfield, Minnesota, USA.

45. Ember, C. R and Ember, M., 1985. Anthropology, Prentice-Hall Inc., Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, USA

46. Christian, 1986. Philosophy: an Introduction of the Art of Wondering, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, New York P. 354

47. Christian, Ref. 46, p. 356.

48. Yockey, H., 1992. Information Theory and Molecular Biology, Cambridge University Press, New York USA

49. Yockey, Ref. 48, p. 392.

50. Evans, M. S., 1994. The Theme of Freedom, Religion, Politics and the American Tradition, Regency Publishers, Washington DC, USA, pp. 39 40.

51. The Intolerance of the BBC, Evolution Protest Movement, Pamphlet No 41, England (not dated).

52. Ref. 51,p. 1.

53. The Scotsman, August 4 1952.

54. Ref. 53.

55. The BBC Abuses its Monopoly, Evolution Protest Movement Pamphlet, p. 8 (not dated).

56. Melnick Ref. 36.

57. Melnick Ref. 36.

58. Eidsmoe, Ref. 6.

59. Bergman, Ref.44.

60. Bridgstock Ref. 15.

61. Bergman, G. M, 1985. The professor who lost his job. Liberty, 80(3).

62. Finniss, G. M., 1 985. We're all related to apes. USA Today, August 17, p. 28.

63. Watt, J. G., 1985. The Courage of a Conservative, Simon and Schuster, New York pp. 109-110.

Dr. Jerry Bergman has seven degrees, including in biology and psychology, and a Ph.D. in evaluation and research, from Wayne State University, Detroit and Bowling Green State University and other colleges. He has taught at Bowling Green State University, Ohio, and at the University of Toledo. He is now a professor of science at Northwest College, Archbold, Ohio, and was recently awarded his second Ph.D., this one in biology.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 01:36 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Should be obvious, but.... the lawsuits and blackballing which one keeps on reading about are NOT the hallmark of people or theories which are winning in the marketplace of ideas. They are the unmistakable traits of losers.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3083

Quote:

Dr. CAROLINE CROCKER (Intelligent Design Proponent): So is it OK to question evolution? Well, let me tell you from personal experience, people lose their jobs for doing it. So it is a--is it OK? Yes. Is it safe? No.....


Refuting evolution and questioning it are too different animals. The scientific community QUESTIONS evolution continuously. I'm sure if the creationist movement has any valid questions, they've been answered by the science community. If they don't like the answers, the creationists only have themselves to blame.

As for people losing there jobs, there have been plenty of people who have lost their jobs for teaching what is heiracy in their private christian schools etc. hell if you want to get into history, I think some have lost more than their jobs for less.

I don't think a creationist has ever been killed for thier stance.

Traits of losers? Pardon yourself.

As for the market place of ideas, the only currency allowed is information/evidence. I think that creatists have been welcomed into the discussion in our scientific institutes, why is it then that evolution proponets are not so welcomed into religious institutes?


Traits of losers? Pardon yourself.
Marketplace of ideas? You have no intrest in buying, only selling.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 01:58 pm
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Homiletic/11-96/3/3.html


Christians should realize that evolution is not
part of genuine natural science,
but is an excuse invented by men to reject God.

Theistic evolution:
A tragic misunderstanding
and grave error

By Clement A. Butel

n This article directs attention to the fact that organic evolution is not a testable scientific theory. It also reveals that it is no more than a metaphysical research program1 based upon a naturalism ("nature is all there is"), which is clearly materialistic.

The program in question uses a methodology that is obviously outside the scientific method. However, it attempts to demonstrate that the facts of nature contain inferences supporting the view that man evolved from amoeba through random changes over a vast period of time. These changes, the theory asserts, were undirected and purposeless.

As shown herein, a leading evolutionist claims that despite its untestable character Darwinism comes within an extended meaning he grants to science because it adopts this methodology. However, along with all other secular evolutionists (including the National Academy for Sciences of the United States-see note 9 below), he rejects this convenient extension of the scope of natural science where inferences are drawn in favor of intelligent design from the true facts of nature, on the ground that they are not wholly naturalistic.

It is obvious that such a distinction cannot be accepted by any true Christian, who in considering the creation/evolution issue should insist that the inferences in favor of intelligent design (and therefore creation by God) should be taken into account.

The article also shows why the case for intelligent design is far superior to the case for evolutionist naturalism. Moreover, after it was written, the author's attention was drawn to a book compiled by experienced scientists, which demonstrates this by making a comparison between the inferences from the true facts of nature that may be validly drawn in favor of either research program. (See Of Pandas and People by Percival Davis and Dean H. Kenyon, with Charles B. Thaxton as academic editor, second edition, 1993, Foundation for Thought and Ethics [a pro-family group] P.O. Box 830721, Richardson, Texas, 75083-0721, U.S.A.).

This book bears out what is stated in the present article in this connection and all Christian parents should demand that it be studied whenever the question of biological origins is taught in schools.

Furthermore, after the article was written, the author's attention was also drawn to a recent publication, which confirms his contentions that (a) the materialist philosophy of "naturalism" has permeated the whole fabric of Western society, and (b) this has resulted in the public replacement of Christian morality with a "permissive" one that does not acknowledge any responsibility to God, our Creator.

The book in question, Reason in the Balance: The Case Against Naturalism in Science, Law and Education (1995, Intervarsity Press, Illinois, U.S.A.) should be compulsory reading for any Christian who is engaged in the work of attempting to rid our society of the permissiveness which takes the form of public approval of abortion on demand, promiscuity in both homosexual and heterosexual lifestyles, a damaging so-called sex education for innocent children, pornography, etc.

It was written by Phillip E. Johnson, Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley, U.S.A., whose earlier book, Darwin on Trial is highly recommended in this article.

It is unfortunate that ever since the publication of Darwin's book many Christians have believed they could take a middle position between the naturalistic hypothesis of evolution and creation by God. This middle position (theistic evolution), however, contains two fundamental errors.

Firstly, it wrongly assumes that naturalistic evolution is part of natural science, even though it cannot be observed or empirically tested; and secondly, it wrongly accords to what is no more than the philosophy of naturalism (nature is all there is, was and ever will be) the status of a scientific paradigm.

The widespread adoption of theistic evolution by Christians has had the effect of stifling criticism of the atheistic hypothesis, thereby allowing the rationalists to dictate the terms of what is supposedly education in the science of origins.

The disastrous results of all this are detailed in Professor Johnson's recent book, referred to above.

Why organic evolution is not science
but only materialistic metaphysics

In the seventeenth century Sir Francis Bacon proposed the application of the Scientific Method as a means for distinguishing theories that were truly part of natural science and those which were outside of it. According to a modern text book, the scientific method is applied as follows:1

(1) Define the problem.

(2) Collect information on the problem.

(3) Form a hypothesis.

(4) Experiment to test the hypothesis.

(5) Reach a conclusion.

The late Sir Karl Popper, a renowned philosopher of science, reminded us that Darwinism could not be tested by science's trial and error methods. Although attracted to it as a philosophy, he was thus forced to admit that Darwinism is not testable scientific theory but is no more than a metaphysical research program.2 This being so it is not part of natural science within Baconian principles.

Adverting to Popper's view of the distinction between science and non-science, Dr. Colin Patterson, a leading paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, also pointed out that the theory of organic evolution is concerned with a series of (alleged) unique historical events, which, because they are unrepeatable, cannot be part of science because they cannot be scientifically tested.3

Two other scientists, both at the relevant time professors of biology, also drew attention to the untestable nature of the evolution hypothesis.4

Neither Popper nor the scientists mentioned above could be accused of any bias in favor of creationism in making the above admissions. But perhaps even more to the point, S. J. Gould, arguably the world's best known evolution polemicist, has also admitted that Darwinism and other historical theories cannot be tested experimentally.

Gould, who teaches biology, geology and the history of science at Harvard University in the United States, stated in 1986 that the theory of evolution relies heavily upon inference and "not on steel balls rolling down inclined planes in a laboratory," but he criticized creation scientists who claimed it was not part of (natural) science.5

In 1992 he returned to this theme when he wrote a hypercritical review of Professor Phillip E. Johnson's book, Darwin on Trial.6 In that review Gould claimed that Johnson held "a narrow and blinkered view of science" because he had claimed that Darwin had "started his theory on the wrong road" by never proposing an experimental test for it.

However, in stating that, ". . . Darwin's method is not generally experimental, for singular and complex events are not so explained by any historical science," Gould tacitly admitted that Darwinism is outside of the Baconian concept of natural science. Notwithstanding this, Gould claimed that Darwinism is "science" because of the methodology Darwin used in arriving at his conclusions.7

This methodology-the drawing of inferences or inductions from today's (circumstantial) evidence-can also be applied in a search for intelligent design in the universe. But Gould would be the last to agree that the theory of supernatural creation, supported by evidence of intelligent design comes within the extended meaning of "science" he so readily grants to Darwinism.

In point of fact (as shown later) secular evolutionists vehemently oppose the teaching that the universe and life on earth contain valid inferences of intelligent design. The reason for this is, of course, that such inferences are diametrically opposed to the materialistic philosophy of "naturalism" which they espouse.

The true situation, in relation to biological origins and in regard to creation as a whole, is, therefore, that there are two opposing metaphysical research programs: one which insists upon natural causes only, based upon random changes; and the other, known as natural theology, which insists that there is abundant evidence of intelligent design which is far beyond the capacity of human beings.

However, secular evolutionists claim that their metaphysical research program should be regarded as "science" and natural theology as non-science because science is concerned with natural causes only.8

This argument is a flagrant non-sequitur. While natural science does demand natural explanations, its theoretical scope does not extend to historical hypotheses, like evolution. True natural science is concerned with presently existing phenomena: it is not a philosophy of life.

The evolution/creation issue is therefore first and foremost and essentially one between a materialistic philosophy advocating a naturalism based upon chance and a theological philosophy claiming intelligent design and therefore the existence of a Transcendent Creator. Although it is also an issue between a materialism and revealed religion, it is capable of logical resolution by a comparison of the cases for each of the abovementioned philosophies.9

It is a fact of life that after 130 years of research evolutionists have not discovered any evidence at all from which any satisfactory inferences can be drawn in favor of their hypothesis,10 whereas discoveries by natural science as to order in the universe, the design and function of living systems and the properties of matter all contain irresistible inferences of an intelligently planned universe.

The true role of natural science
in relation to creation

From a Christian point of view it should be easily seen that God was the Transcendent First Cause of all created things but that he also created secondary causes to uphold his creation and ensure the continuity of life on earth. The true scope of natural science is therefore the observation of created things and the investigation of those secondary causes created by God: that is, those continuously repeatable laws which govern the composition and function of created things and ensure their continuity.

Always subject to his will as to their operation and continued existence, God gave those laws their own autonomy. Natural science can only ever obtain a much less than certain knowledge of them and thus the true investigatory task of scientists is an "unended quest."11

The evolution world view

Rationalist, Auguste Comte, in his Cours de Philosophie Positive (1830) claimed that the first two stages of man's thought, the theological and metaphysical stages, had been superseded by the final or positive stage when men through scientific experimentation and observation would reach the positive truth.

Applied to origins, as it was meant to be, this philosophy is a fallacy, because unique past events cannot be observed nor can any hypothesis as to their history be experimentally tested. Yet it is the philosophy adopted by modern scientific establishments, who advocate a world-view built upon uniformitarian and evolutionist concepts in which they claim to know the ages of geological strata, the earth and the universe. Suffice to say that all these suppositions contain assumptions, vital to their validity, which are not only unproven but are also untestable and outside of the scientific method. Any claim that they scientifically contradict the biblical history of origins is therefore untrue.


The diabolical purpose of pro-evolution censorship

During this century there has been an unrelenting censorship of arguments against evolution. In a book published or republished in 1927 and entitled, "Thoughts of a Catholic Anatomist," the Parkman Professor of Anatomy at Harvard University in the United States, Thomas Dwight, wrote:

The tyranny of the Zeitgeist in the matter of evolution is overwhelming to a degree which outsiders have no idea; not only does it influence (as I admit it does in my case) our manners of thinking, but there is an oppression as in the days of the "terror". How very few leaders of science dare tell the truth concerning their own state of mind! How many of them feel forced in public to do a lip service to a cult they do not believe in!12

Another famous scientist of more recent times, the late Professor W. R. Thompson F.R.S., in his introduction to what was virtually a centenary edition of Darwin's Origin of Species, wrote in regard to the suppression of criticism of evolution:

This situation, where scientific men rally to the defence of a doctrine they are unable to define scientifically, much less demonstrate with scientific rigour, attempting to maintain credit with the public by suppression of criticism and the elimination of difficulties, is abnormal and undesirable in science.13

In recent times (1993) Sir Fred Hoyle, the noted physicist, has vehemently attacked the arrogance of evolutionists who have infiltrated the education system and have imposed a strict censorship against opposing views.14

The censorship and oppression in question has continued to the present day. In quite a number of cases in the United States scientists have been deprived of teaching positions or have been rejected for doctoral or other post-graduate courses in science, not because their work in their own respective disciplines was not first class, but because they were known to be sympathetic to what is now popularly called "creationism."

If at present there were irresistible inferences for the alleged fact of evolution but none for natural theology, there would be no need for this censorship and oppression. The facts would speak for themselves. However, the true situation is the very reverse of this.

A current article gives particulars of this oppression exercised in two recent cases.15 It also brings out that the censorship of criticism of the evolution world-view has as its ultimate object the elimination of all religious beliefs by classifying them as "anti-science." But the weaponry in this war against religion is not true natural science, but, as shown above, is only pseudo-science.

In a speech recently made and now appearing in article form, Professor Phillip E. Johnson refers to the second case of oppression, abovementioned.16 It was exercised by evolutionists in control of scientific education at San Francisco State University in the United States. It concerned the action they took to suppress reference by a professor of biology to the case for intelligent design, when also teaching the case for evolution to first-year undergraduates.

Johnson gives this case as an illustration as to why the creation/evolution issue is not really one between religious beliefs and science but one between argument for intelligent design (theism) and a philosophical "naturalism" (atheism) and so concludes that any form of theistic evolution is a grave error.

Christians should now realize that evolution is not part of genuine natural science but is no more than an excuse invented by men to reject God, their Creator (cf. Romans 1:19-20); and that theistic evolution likewise is unscientific.

Consequently those who have advocated theistic evolution should now reconsider their position, for to continue to do so will only give support to the secular theory and stifle criticism of it. This in turn will assist atheistic evolutionists in their quest to destroy all religion by relegating it to what they label as "anti-science."

Already in this post World War II era, with the passive help of theistic evolution, they have made giant strides in their quest to turn our Western society into a Godless permissive one. They have been able to do this by falsely claiming that their pseudo-science-which replaces God the Creator of all things with atheistic "naturalism"-has the same authenticity and immense prestige as the science that split the atom and put men on the moon. It's time all Christians united to expose the falseness of this atheistic propaganda.

To combat the massive propaganda in favor of evolution in scientific journals and in the media as a whole and the brainwashing in its favor that passes as scientific education in schools and universities, all Christians should be shouting from the housetops that the theory of organic evolution has no place at all in scientific classrooms. Being metaphysical only, its true place is in the philosophy department where its naturalism would meet with very stiff opposition from the presentation of the overwhelming evidence for intelligent design. n

1 Bigs et al., Biology: The Dynamics of Life (1991), Merril Publishing Co., Columbus, Ohio, U.S.A. The word "metaphysical" in relation to evolution is conveniently used here because it was adopted by Popper (see article) and by Patterson (as the statement referred to in Ref. 3 of the article shows). Some would argue, however, that it is not a true metaphysical theory but is more a belief system which is the basis of a pantheistic religion.

2 "I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research programme. It is important to remember that Darwinism is metaphysical and not scientific." K. Popper, at p. 168 of his autobiography, Unended Quest, (1976), Fontana Books Wm. Collins & Co., London.

3 Dr. Colin Patterson, British Museum of Natural History, (1978), at pp. 145/6. Dr. Patterson is not a creationist but is an agnostic.

4 P. Erlich and L. C. Birch, Nature, 22 April, 1967 at p. 352. Also the Revised Quote Book (Creation Science Foundation, Brisbane, Australia) recorded the following from the Melbourne University Assembly Week address by a Professor Whitton: "Biologists are simply naïve when they talk about experiments to test the theory of evolution. It is not testable."

5 Gould is thus reported by Christopher Joyce in a newspaper article "Genesis Goes on Trial." Republished by the Weekend-Australian 27/28 December, 1986.

6 (1990) Regnery Gateway, Washington, D.C. Also published by Intervarsity Press, Illinois, in 1991 plus a second edition published in 1993.

7 S. J. Gould, "Impeaching a Self Appointed Judge." Scientific American, July, 1992 at p. 194.

8 In a "friend of court" submission to the Supreme Court of the United States in the State of Louisiana appeal, the American Academy for the Sciences put this misleading argument. See Darwin on Trial (Reference 7 above) at p. 7.

9 Thus the evolution/creation issue is nothing more than the age old controversy between materialism and natural theology.

10 For a thorough dismantling of all of Darwin's arguments, see Dr. Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, published by Burnett Books in the U.K. and Adler and Adler in the U.S.A. in 1985/86. At the time of writing at least Dr. Denton, a molecular biologist, was an agnostic and therefore cannot be accused of bias. See also Darwin on Trial (Ref. 7 above).

Apart from these two substantial critiques of Darwinism and many others that could be named, there are numerous admissions by evolutionists that there are no intermediate (transitional) forms to be found in the fossil record. Dr. Colin Patterson (Ref. 3 above) has been recorded as saying that after twenty years of research he knew nothing that was true about evolution, and later that a watertight case could not be made out for the existence of any transitional fossil in the fossil record.

Sir Fred Hoyle in his 1993 book (Ref. 15 below) has made a strong attack upon the evolution theory, calling it "scientific fundamentalism" and pointing out that it is a failure in relation to fossils and geology. He points out that "the trunk and the main branches of the evolutionary" tree are missing and only exist in the evolutionist's imagination (see pp. 109-114).

11 Karl Popper states at p. 104 of his autobiography (Ref. 2) concerning genuine scientific theories: "Although we cannot justify a theory-that is, justify our belief in its truth-we can sometimes justify our preference for one theory over another; for example, if its degree of corroboration is greater." As an example he gives present day preference of Einstein's theory over Newton's. Thus Popper has called his book Unended Quest. Although Popper's view concerning certainty in relation to scientific theories is considered by some to be controversial, it is no doubt correct in the case of cosmological theories.

12 (1927) Longmans Green & Co, London, at pp.20/21.

13 See introduction to 1962 re-issue of Darwin's, Origins, published by J. M. Dent & Sons, London.

14 F. Hoyle, Our Place in the Cosmos (1993) J. M. Dent & Sons, London at pp. 10, 13-15, & 65.

15 Scientists' War Against Religion by Dr. Jerry Bergman, 321 Iuka Street, Montpelier, OH, 43543, U.S.A.

16 "Shouting 'Heresy' in the Temple of Darwin" by P. E. Johnson (1994) Christianity Today.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 02:14 pm
More agenda-driven, presumption-dependent crackpot screed, gunga? Can't you do better than that? Where is your actual evidence, your independently peer-reviewed, duplicated, verified, accepted and published in legitimate accreditted scientific, academic, and/or professional journals and/or other like publications, real evidence?

Oh - yeah - I forgot -

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4193/itsaconspiracyiq1.jpg
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 03:46 pm
First off, from gungas article by Jerry Bergman, Creationists DONT PUBLISH, the "self -Publish" . Theyve never produced any real quality scientific evidence that could even BE peer reviewed. Since everything begins and ends with a god causing it, how can there be any evidence to deny it. SO, they choose to not present any evidence at all.
Ive challenged RL and gunga for some real hard evidence and all we get are these pre-digested packets of propoganda.

Next, not worrying about guys like Hank "dim-bulb" Morris, but to misquote PAtterson as egregiously as Bergmans article does needs to have some Answer from the old talk origins archive (the posted and store info that is from credible sources and not some Bible thumping Hogwarts Academy of "poofism")

I recalled one of the other quote mine jobs that was tried on PAtterson and heres the citation(It comes from an article called "a Tale of Two Cites", by Patterson himself)
Quote:
CSF "Revised Quote Book", published in 1990. So the quote is in wide usage, at least in Australia:


"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. . .I will lay it on the line, There is not one such fossil for which one might make a watertight argument."
-- Dr. Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History.

I decided to get to the bottom of the matter. The quote is from a personal letter dated 10th April 1979 from Dr. Patterson to creationist Luther D. Sunderland and is referring to Dr. Patterson's book "Evolution" (1978, Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd.). My first step was to read the book. (I believe it is now out of print, but most university libraries should have a copy.) Anyone who has actually read the book can hardly say that Patterson believed in the absence of transitional forms. For example (p131-133):


"In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil 'missing links', such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes. . ."
Patterson goes on to acknowledge that there are gaps in the fossil record, but points out that this is possibly due to the limitations of what fossils can tell us. He finishes the paragraph with:


". . .Fossils may tell us many things, but one thing they can never disclose is whether they were ancestors of anything else."
It is actually this statement which is the key to interpreting the Sunderland quote correctly; it is not possible to say for certain whether a fossil is in the direct ancestral line of a species group. Archaeopteryx, for example, is not necessarily directly ancestral to birds. It may have been a species on a side-branch. However, that in no way disqualifies it as a transitional form, or as evidence for evolution. Evolution predicts that such fossils will exist, and if there was no link between reptiles and birds then Archaeopteryx would not exist, whether it is directly ancestral or not. What Patterson was saying to Sunderland was that, of the transitional forms that are known, he could not make a watertight argument for any being directly ancestral to living species groups.



The interesting thing about gungas quotes is that from all his sources, the latest he can come up with average dates in the early 1980's. In sciences a 25+ year old case and citation is about as useful as a Terracentric theory of the solar system.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 05:52 pm
You say you need some more recent quotes??

Quote:


"There are only two possibilities as to how life arose; one is
spontaneous generation arising to evolution, the other is a supernatural
creative act of God, there is no third possibility. Spontaneous
generation that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically
disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with
only one possible conclusion, that life arose as a creative act of God.
I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe
in God, therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is
scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution."

(Dr. George Wald, evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the
University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology.)

"Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall
of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the
alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing."

(Dr. George Wald, evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the
University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology.)

"Evolution [is] a theory universally accepted not because it can be
proven by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only
alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible."

(Professor D.M.S. Watson, leading biologist and science writer of his day.)

"My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for
more than 40 years have completely failed.....It is not even possible to
make a caricature of an evolution out of paleobiological facts...The
idea of an evolution rests on pure belief."

(Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson, noted Swedish botanist and geneticist, of
Lund University)

"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are
great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax
ever! In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact."

(Dr. Newton Tahmisian, Atomic Energy Commission.)

"When you realize that the laws of nature must be incredibly finely
tuned to produce the universe we see, that conspires to plant the idea
that the universe did not just happen, but that there must be a purpose
behind it."

(John Polkinghorne, Cambridge University physicist, "Science Finds God,"
Newsweek, 20 July, 1998)

"Many have a feeling that somehow intelligence must have been involved
in the laws of the universe."

(Charles Townes, 1964 Nobel Prize winner in physics, "Science Finds
God," Newsweek, 20 July, 1998)

"250,000 species of plants and animals recorded and deposited in museums
throughout the world did not support the gradual unfolding hoped for by
Darwin."

(Dr. David Raup, curator of geology at the Field Museum of Natural
History in Chicago, "Conflicts Between Darwinism and Paleontology")

"The pathetic thing about it is that many scientists are trying to prove
the doctrine of evolution, which no science can do."

(Dr. Robert A. Milikan, physicist and Nobel Prize winner, speech before
the American Chemical Society.)

"The miracles required to make evolution feasible are far greater in
number and far harder to believe than the miracle of creation."

(Dr. Richard Bliss, former professor of biology and science education as
Christian Heritage College, "It Takes A Miracle For Evolution.")

"Scientists at the forefront of inquiry have put the knife to classical
Darwinism. They have not gone public with this news, but have kept it in
their technical papers and inner counsels."

(Dr. William Fix, in his book, "The Bone Peddlers.")

"In the meantime, the educated public continues to believe that Darwin
has provided all the relevant answers by the magic formula of random
mutations plus natural selection---quite unaware of the fact that random
mutations turned out to be irrelevant and natural selection tautology."

(Dr. Arthur Koestler)

"The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the
biological world is the notion of special creation."

(Dr. Colin Patterson, evolutionist and senior Paleontologist at the
British Museum of Natural History, which houses 60 million fossils)

"A growing number of respectable scientists are defecting from the
evolutionist camp.....moreover, for the most part these "experts" have
abandoned Darwinism, not on the basis of religious faith or biblical
persuasions, but on strictly scientific grounds, and in some instances,
regretfully."

(Dr. Wolfgang Smith, physicist and mathematician)

"It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I
learned as a student....have now been debunked."

(Dr. Derek V. Ager, Department of Geology, Imperial College, London)

"One must conclude that, contrary to the established and current wisdom,
a scenario describing the genesis of life on earth by chance and natural
causes which can be accepted on the basis of fact and not faith has not
been written."

(Dr. Hubert P. Yockey)

"Darwin's evolutionary explanation of the origins of man has been
transformed into a modern myth, to the detriment of scientific and
social progress.....The secular myths of evolution have had a damaging
effect on scientific research, leading to distortion, to needless
controversy, and to gross misuse of science....I mean the stories, the
narratives about change over time. How the dinosaurs became extinct, how
the mammals evolved, where man came from. These seem to me to be little
more than story-telling."

(Dr. Colin Patterson, evolutionist and senior Paleontologist at the
British Museum of Natural History, which houses 60 million fossils)

"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the
probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in
a printing shop."

(Dr. Edwin Conklin, evolutionist and professor of biology at Princeton
University.)

"One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that
the spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here
we are-as a result, I believe, of spontaneous generation."

(Dr. George Wald Evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the
University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology.)

"The explanation value of the evolutionary hypothesis of common origin
is nil! Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, it seems to convey
anti-knowledge. How could I work on evolution ten years and learn
nothing from it? Most of you in this room will have to admit that in the
last ten years we have seen the basis of evolution go from fact to
faith! It does seem that the level of knowledge about evolution is
remarkably shallow. We know it ought not be taught in high school, and
that's all we know about it."

(Dr. Colin Patterson, evolutionist and senior Paleontologist at the
British Museum of Natural History, which houses 60 million fossils)

"Hypothesis [evolution] based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the
facts....These classical evolutionary theories are a gross
over-simplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts,
and it amazes me that they are swallowed so uncritically and readily,
and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of
protest."

(Sir Ernst Chan, Nobel Prize winner for developing penicillin)

"There is the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen
from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form. This
theory can be called the "general theory of evolution," and the evidence
which supports this is not sufficiently strong to allow us to consider
it as anything more than a working hypothesis."

(Dr. G. A. Kerkut evolutionist)

"All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into
it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We all
believe as an article of faith that life evolved from dead matter on
this planet. It is just that life's complexity is so great, it is hard
for us to imagine that it did."

(Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Prize winner)

"The deceit is sometimes unconscious, but not always, since some people,
owing to their sectarianism, purposely overlook reality and refuse to
acknowledge the inadequacies and the falsity of their beliefs."

(Dr. Pierre-Paul Grasse of the University of Paris and past-president of
the French Academy of Science)

"Meanwhile, their [evolutionists] unproven theories will continue to be
accepted by the learned and the illiterate alike as absolute truth, and
will be defended with a frantic intolerance that has a parallel only in
the bigotry of the darkest Middle Ages. If one does not accept evolution
as an infallible dogma, implicitly and without question, one is regarded
as an unenlightened ignoramus or is merely ignored as an obscurantist or
a naive, uncritical fundamentalist."

(Dr. Alfred Rehwinkel)

"It is my conviction that if any professional biologist will take
adequate time to examine carefully the assumptions upon which the
macro-evolution doctrine rests, and the observational and laboratory
evidence that bears on the problem of origins, he/she will conclude that
there are substantial reasons for doubting the truth of this doctrine.
Moreover, I believe that a scientifically sound creationist view of
origins is not only possible, but it is to be preferred over the
evolutionary one."

(Dean H. Kenyon, professor of biology at San Francisco State University)

"For myself, as, no doubt, for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy
of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The
liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain
political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of
morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our
sexual freedom."

(Aldous Huxley, Ends and Means)

"I suppose the reason we leaped at the origin of species was because the
idea of God interfered with our sexual mores."

(Sir Julian Huxley, President of the United Nation's Educational,
Scientific, Cultural Organization (UNESCO).)

"Evolution is unproved and improvable, we believe it because the only
alternative is special creation, which is unthinkable."

(Sir Arthur Keith, a militant anti-Christian physical anthropologist)

"Perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself,
have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse,
too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the
theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past.
Paleontology reveals more about how humans view themselves than it does
about how humans came about, but that is heresy."

(Dr. David Pilbeam, Professor of Anthropology at Yale University,
American Scientist, vol 66, p.379, June 1978)

"If I knew of any Evolutionary transitional's, fossil or living, I would
certainly have included them in my book, 'Evolution' "

(Dr. Colin Patterson, evolutionist and senior Paleontologist at the
British Museum of Natural History, which houses 60 million fossils)

"For over 20 years I thought I was working on evolution....But there was
not one thing I knew about it... So for the last few weeks I've tried
putting a simple question to various people, the question is, "Can you
tell me any one thing that is true?" I tried that question on the
Geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer
I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary
Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, A very prestigious body
of Evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and
eventually one person said, "Yes, I do know one thing, it ought not to
be taught in High School"....over the past few years....you have
experienced a shift from Evolution as knowledge to evolution as
faith...Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to
convey anti-knowledge."

(Dr. Collin Patterson evolutionist, address at the American Museum of
Natural History, New York City, Nov. 1981)

"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major
transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our
imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has
been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualist accounts of
evolution."

(Stephen Jay Gould, Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard
University.)

"I shall discuss the broad patterns of hominoid evolution, an exercise
made enjoyable by the need to integrate diverse kinds of information,
and use that as a vehicle to speculate about hominoid origins, an event
for which there is no recognized fossil record. Hence, an opportunity to
exercise some imagination."

(Dr. David Pilbeam)

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for
adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different
amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic
aberration, could have formed by natural selection, seems, I freely
confess, absurd in the highest degree possible."

(Charles Darwin, "The origin of species by means of natural selection")

"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists
as a trade secret of Paleontology. Evolutionary trees that adorn our
textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the
rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils."

(Dr. Stephan J Gould, Harvard Paleontologist, "Evolution, Erratic Pace")

"Within the period of human history we do not know of a single instance
of the transformation of one species into another one. It may be claimed
that the theory of descent is lacking, therefore, in the most essential
feature that it needs to place the theory on a scientific basis, this
must be admitted."

(Dr. T.H Morgan)

"The facts of paleontology seem to support creation and the flood rather
than evolution. For instance, all the major groups of invertebrates
appear "suddenly" in the first fossil ferrous strata (Cambrian) of the
earth with their distinct specializations indicating that they were all
created almost at the same time."

(Professor Enoch, University of Madras)

"It remains true, as every paleontologist knows, that most new species,
genera, and families, and that nearly all categories above the level of
families, appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known,
gradual completely continuous transitional sequences." (Dr. George
Gaylord Simpson of Harvard)

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could
not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight
modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

(Charles Darwin, "The Origin of Species")

"I can envision observations and experiments that would disprove any
evolutionary theory I know."

(Dr. Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory," Discover
2(5):34-37 (1981)

"Darwinism is a creed not only with scientists committed to document the
all-purpose role of natural selection. It is a creed with masses of
people who have at best a vague notion of the mechanism of evolution as
proposed by Darwin, let alone as further complicated by his successors.
Clearly, the appeal cannot be that of a scientific truth but of a
philosophical belief which is not difficult to identify. Darwinism is a
belief in the meaninglessness of existence."

(Dr. R. Kirk, "The Rediscovery of Creation," in National Review, (May
27, 1983), p. 641.)

"It is not the duty of science to defend the theory of evolution, and
stick by it to the bitter end no matter which illogical and unsupported
conclusions it offers. On the contrary, it is expected that scientists
recognize the patently obvious impossibility of Darwin's pronouncements
and predictions . . Let's cut the umbilical cord that tied us down to
Darwin for such a long time. It is choking us and holding us back."

(Dr. I.L. Cohen, "Darwin Was Wrong:" A Study in Probabilities (1985)

"The theories of evolution, with which our studious youth have been
deceived, constitute actually a dogma that all the world continues to
teach; but each, in his specialty, the zoologist or the botanist,
ascertains that none of the explanations furnished is adequate . . It
results from this summary, that the theory of evolution is impossible."

(Dr. P. Lemoine, "Introduction: De L' Evolution?" Encyclopedie
Francaise, Vol. 5 (1937)

"Paleontologists [fossil experts] have paid an exorbitant price for
Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of
life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by
natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see
the very process we profess to study."

(Dr. Steven Jay Gould, The Panda's Thumb (1982), pp. 181-182 [Harvard
professor and the leading evolutionary spokesman of the latter half of
the twentieth century].)

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself
whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy."

(Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229)

"I have often thought how little I should like to have to prove organic
evolution in a court of law."

(Dr. Errol White, Proceedings of the Linnean Society, London (1966) [an
ichthyologist (expert on fish) in a 1988 address before a meeting of the
Linnean Society in London])

"The universe and the Laws of Physics seem to have been specifically
designed for us. If any one of about 40 physical qualities had more than
slightly different values, life as we know it could not exist: Either
atoms would not be stable, or they wouldn't combine into molecules, or
the stars wouldn't form heavier elements, or the universe would collapse
before life could develop, and so on..."

(Stephen Hawking, considered the best known scientist since Albert
Einstein, Austin American-Statesmen, October 19, 1997)

"Facts do not 'speak for themselves' they are read in light of theory."

(Evolutionist, Steven J Gould, Professor. Harvard University)

"Why then is not every Geological formation and every stratum full of
such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such
finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious
and serious objection which can be urged against the theory. The
explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the
geological record."

(Charles Darwin)

"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with
stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle
with an inferior one; because in such cases all her efforts, throughout
hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher
stage of being, may thus be rendered futile"

(Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" 1924)

"The German Fuhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an
evolutionist; he has consistently sought to make the practices of
Germany conform to the theory of evolution."

(Sir Arthur Keith, a militant anti-Christian physical anthropologist)

"The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish
hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very
distant date, what an endless number of lower races will have been
eliminated by the higher civilized races throughout the world." (Charles
Darwin, 1881, 3 July, "Life and Letters of Darwin, vol. 1, 316")

"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the
civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace,
the savage races throughout the world."

(Charles Darwin, The descent of Man, Chap. vi)

"The chief distinction in the intellectual powers of the two sexes is
shown by mans attaining to a higher eminence, in whatever he takes up,
than the woman. Whether deep thought, reason, or imagination or merely
the use of the senses and hands.....We may also infer.....The average
mental power in man must be above that of woman."

(Charles Darwin, "The descent of Man, pg. 566")

"No rational man, cognizant of the facts, believes that the average
Negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man.....it is
simply incredible to think that.....he will be able to compete
successfully with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a
contest which is to be carried on by thoughts and not by bites."

(Thomas Huxley, 1871, Lay Sermons, addresses and reviews)

"The Negroid stock is even more ancient than the Caucasian and the
Mongolian, as may be proved by an examination not only of the brain, of
the hair, of the bodily characters, such as the teeth, the genitalia,
the sense organs, but of the instincts, the intelligence. The standard
intelligence of the average adult Negro is similar to that of the 11
year old youth of the species homo-sapiens."

(Dr. H.F. Osborn, Director of the Museum of National History)

"Recapitulation provided a convenient focus for the persuasive racism of
white scientists; they looked to the activities of their own children
for comparison with normal adult behavior in lower races." (Dr. Stephen
J Gould, "Dr. Downs Syndrome" natural history, 1980)

After Seeing The Impossibility Of Evolution, These Scientists Made The
Following Observations:

"Evolution can be thought of as sort of a magical religion. Magic is
simply an effect without a cause, or at least a competent cause.
'Chance,' 'time,' and 'nature,' are the small gods enshrined at
evolutionary temples. Yet these gods cannot explain the origin of life.
These gods are impotent. Thus, evolution is left without competent cause
and is, therefore, only a magical explanation for the existence of life..."

(Dr. Randy L. Wysong, instructor of human anatomy and physiology, The
Creation-Evolution Controversy, pg. 418.)

"After chiding the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle,
science found itself in the unenviable position of having to create
mythology of its own: namely, the assumption that what, after long
effort, could not be proved to take place today had, in truth, taken
place in the primeval past."

(Dr. Loren Eiseley, anthropologist, The Immense Journey, pg. 144.)

"Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups."

(Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist.)

"Evolution is a fairy tale for adults."

(Dr. Paul LeMoine, one of the most prestigious scientists in the world)

"Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing
in the progress of science. It is useless."

(Prof. Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of
Scientific Research.)

"The evolution theory is purely the product of the imagination."

(Dr. Ambrose Flemming, Pres. Philosophical Society of Great Britain)

"The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it in
the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research but
purely the product of the imagination."

(Albert Fleishman, professor of zoology & comparative anatomy at
Erlangen University)

"We have had enough of the Darwinian fallacy. It is time we cry, "The
emperor has no clothes."

(Dr. Hsu, geologist at the Geological Institute in Zurich.)

"The great cosmologic myth of the twentieth century."

(Dr. Michael Denton, molecular biochemist, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis.)

"9/10 of the talk of evolution is sheer nonsense not founded on
observation and wholly unsupported by fact. This Museum is full of proof
of the utter falsity of their view."

(Dr. Ethredge, British Museum of Science.)

"We have now the remarkable spectacle that just when many scientific men
are agreed that there is no part of the Darwinian system that is of any
great influence, and that, as a whole, the theory is not only unproved,
but impossible, the ignorant, half-educated masses have acquired the
idea that it is to be accepted as a fundamental fact."

(Dr. Thomas Dwight, famed professor at Harvard University)

"I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest
deceit in the history of science. When this happens, many people will
pose the question, "How did this ever happen?"

(Dr. Sorren Luthrip, Swedish Embryologist)

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that
evolution is based upon faith alone; exactly the same sort of faith
which is necessary to have when one encounters the great mysteries of
religion....The only alternative is the doctrine of special creation,
which may be true, but irrational."

(Dr. Louis T. More, professor of paleontology at Princeton University)

"Evolution is faith, a religion."

(Dr. Louist T. More, professor of paleontology at Princeton University)

"Darwin's theory of evolution is the last of the great
nineteenth-century mystery religions. And as we speak it is now
following Freudians and Marxism into the Nether regions, and I'm quite
sure that Freud, Marx and Darwin are commiserating one with the other in
the dark dungeon where discarded gods gather."

(Dr. David Berlinski)

"In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all
scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to "bend" their
observations to fit in with it."

(H.S. Lipson, Physicist Looks at Evolution, Physics Bulletin 31 (1980),
p. 138)

"A time honored scientific tenet of faith."

(Professor David Allbrook)

"Darwinism has become our culture's official creation myth, protected by
a priesthood as dogmatic as any religious curia."

(Nancy Pearcey, "Creation Mythology,"pg. 23)

"When students of other sciences ask us what is now currently believed
about the origin of species, we have no clear answer to give. Faith has
given way to agnosticism. Meanwhile, though our faith in evolution
stands unshaken we have no acceptable account of the origin of species."

(Dr. William Bateson, great geneticist of Cambridge)

"Chance renders evolution impossible."

(Dr. James Coppedge)

"It (evolution) is sustained largely by a propaganda campaign that
relies on all the usual tricks of rhetorical persuasion: hidden
assumptions, question-begging statements of what is at issue, terms that
are vaguely defined and change their meaning in midargument, attacks of
straw men, selective citation of evidence, and so on. The theory is also
protected by its cultural importance. It is the officially sanctioned
creation story to modern society, and publicly funded educational
authorities spare no effort to persuade people to believe it."

(Professor Phillip Johnson, "Objections Sustained: Subversive Essays on
Evolution, Law and Culture," pg. 9)

"Therefore, a grotesque account of a period some thousands of years ago
is taken seriously though it be built by piling special assumptions on
special assumptions, ad hoc hypothesis [invented for a purpose] on ad
hoc hypothesis, and tearing apart the fabric of science whenever it
appears convenient. The result is a fantasia which is neither history
nor science."

(Dr. James Conant [chemist and former president of Harvard University],
quoted in Origins Research, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1982, p. 2.)

"George Bernard Shaw wisecracked once that Darwin had the luck to please
everybody who had an axe to grind. Well, I also have an axe to grind,
but I am not pleased. We have suffered through two world wars and are
threatened by an Armageddon. We have had enough of the Darwinian fallacy.

(Dr. Kenneth Hsu, "Reply," Geology, 15 (1987), p. 177)

"Unfortunately for Darwin's future reputation, his life was spent on the
problem of evolution which is deductive by nature...It is absurd to
expect that many facts will not always be irreconcilable with any theory
of evolution and, today, every one of his theories is contradicted by
facts."

(Dr. P.T. Mora, The Dogma of Evolution, p. 194)

"Ultimately the Darwinian theory of evolution is no more nor less than
the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century...The origin of life
and of new beings on earth is still largely as enigmatic as when Darwin
set sail on the [ship] Beagle."

(Dr. Michael Denton, molecular biochemist, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
(1986), p. 358.)

"It is inherent in any definition of science that statements that cannot
be checked by observation are not really saying anything or at least
they are not science."

(George G. Simpson, "The Nonprevalence of Humanoids," in Science, 143
(1964) p. 770.)

"The theory [of evolution] is a scientific mistake."

(Dr. Louis Agassiz, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation, (1966),
p. 139. [Agassiz was a Harvard University professor and the pioneer in
glaciation.]

"There is no evidence, scientific or otherwise, to support the theory of
evolution."

(Sir Cecil Wakely)

"It's impossible by micro-mutation to form any new species."

(Dr. Richard Goldschmt, evolutionist. Founder of the "Hopeful Monster"
theory.)

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest
growing controversial minorities...Many of the scientists supporting
this position hold impressive credentials in science."

(Larry Hatfield, "Educators Against Darwin," Science Digest Special,
Winter, pp. 94-96.)

"The theory of life that undermined ninteenth-century religion has
virtually become a religion itself and in its turn is being threatened
by fresh ideas...In the past ten years has emerged a new breed of
biologists who are scientifically respectable, but who have their doubts
about Darwinism."

(Dr. B. Leith, scientist)

"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to
a number with 40,000 nought's after it...It is big enough to bury Darwin
and the whole theory of Evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither
on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not
random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful
intelligence."

(Sir Fred Hoyle, highly respected British physicist and astronomer)

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe a spirit
vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers
must feel humble."

(Albert Einstein)

"Unfortunately, in the field of evolution most explanations are not
good. As a matter of fact, they hardly qualify as explanations at all;
they are suggestions, hunches, pipe dreams, hardly worthy of being
called hypotheses."

(Dr. Norman Macbeth, Darwin Retried (1971), p. 147)

"Evolution is baseless and quite incredible."

(Dr. John Ambrose Fleming, President, British Association for
Advancement of Science, in "The Unleashing of Evolutionary Thought")

"The fact is that the evidence was so patchy one hundred years ago that
even Darwin himself had increasing doubts as to the validity of his
views, and the only aspect of his theory which has received any support
over the past century is where it applies to microevolutionary
phenomena. His general theory, that all life on earth had originated and
evolved by a gradual successive accumulation of fortuitous mutations, is
still, as it was in Darwin's time, a highly speculative hypothesis
entirely without direct factual support and very far from that
self-evident axiom some of its more aggressive advocates would have us
believe."

(Dr. Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1986), p. 77)

"I have always been slightly suspicious of the theory of evolution
because of its ability to account for any property of living beings (the
long neck of the giraffe, for example). I have therefore tried to see
whether biological discoveries over the last thirty years or so fit in
with Darwin's theory. I do not think that they do. To my mind, the
theory does not stand up at all."

(H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physic Bulletin, 31
(1980), p. 138.)

"In conclusion, evolution is not observable, repeatable, or refutable,
and thus does not qualify as either a scientific fact or theory."

(Dr. David N. Menton, PhD in Biology from Brown University)

"The success of Darwinism was accomplished by a decline in scientific
integrity."

(Dr. W.R. Thompson, world renowned Entomologist)

"I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially to the
extant that it's been applied, will be one of the greatest jokes in the
history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so flimsy and
dubious a hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity
that it has."

(Malcolm Muggeridge)

"There are gaps in the fossil graveyard, places where there should be
intermediate forms, but where there is nothing whatsoever instead. No
paleontologist..denies that this is so. It is simply a fact, Darwin's
theory and the fossil record are in conflict."

(Dr. David Berlinsky)

"Scientists concede that their most cherished theories are based on
embarrassingly few fossil fragments and that huge gaps exist in the
fossil record."

(Time Magazine, Nov. 7, 1977)

"Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not
support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory
which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty
of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this
theory."

(Dr. Ronald R. West)

"The evolutionary establishment fears creation science, because
evolution itself crumbles when challenged by evidence. In the 1970s and
1980s, hundreds of public debates were arranged between evolutionary
scientists and creation scientists. The latter scored resounding
victories, with the result that, today, few evolutionists will debate.
Isaac Asimov, Stephen Jay Gould, and the late Carl Sagan, while highly
critical of creationism, all declined to debate."

(Dr. James Perloff, Tornado in a Junkyard (1999), p. 241)

"I doubt if there is any single individual within the scientific
community who could cope with the full range of [creationist] arguments
without the help of an army of consultants in special fields."

(David M. Raup, "Geology and Creation," Bulletin of the Field Museum of
Natural History, Vol. 54, March 1983, p. 18)

"I think in fifty years, Darwinian evolution will be gone from the
science curriculum...I think people will look back on it and ask how
anyone could, in their right mind, have believed this, because it's so
implausible when you look at the evidence."

(Dr. Johnathan Wells, author of the book, "Icons of Evolution")

"As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some
supernatural agency--or, rather, Agency--must be involved. Is it
possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon
scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who
stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

(Astronomer George Greenstein, "The Symbiotic Universe," page 27)

"Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out
of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly
the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying
(one might say "supernatural") plan."

(Nobel laureate Arno Penzias, "Cosmos, Bios, and Theos," page 83)

"Human DNA contains more organized information than the Encyclopedia
Britannica. If the full text of the encyclopedia were to arrive in
computer code from outer space, most people would regard this as proof
of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But when seen in
nature, it is explained as the workings of random forces."

(George Sim Johnson "Did Darwin Get it Right?" The Wall Street Journal,
October 15, 1999)

"The vast mysteries of the universe should only confirm our belief in
the certainty of its Creator. I find it as difficult to understand a
scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior
rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend
a theologian who would deny the advances of science."

(Werner von Braun, father of space science, "Gone Bananas," World
September 7, 2002)

"Faith does not imply a closed, but an open mind. Quite the opposite of
blindness, faith appreciates the vast spiritual realities that
materialists overlook by getting trapped in the purely physical."

(Sir John Templeton "the Humble Approach," page 115)

"It is hard to resist the impression that the present structure of the
universe, apparently so sensitive to minor alterations in numbers, has
been rather carefully thought out...The seemingly miraculous concurrence
of these numerical values must remain the most compelling evidence for
cosmic design."

(Physicist Paul Davies, "God and the New Physics," page 189)

"Would it not be strange if a universe without purpose accidentally
created humans who are so obsessed with purpose?"

(Sir John Templeton, "The Humble Approach: Scientists Discover God,"
page 19)

"Set aside the many competing explanations of the Big Bang; something
made an entire cosmos out of nothing. It is this realization--that
something transcendent started it all--which has hard-science
types...using terms like 'miracle.'"

(Gregg Easterbrook, "The New Convergence")

"Perhaps the best argument...that the Big Bang supports theism is the
obvious unease with which it is greeted by some atheist physicists. At
times this has led to scientific ideas...being advanced with a tenacity
which so exceeds their intrinsic worth that one can only suspect the
operation of psychological forces lying very much deeper than the usual
academic desire of a theorist to support his or her theory."

(C. J. Isham, "Creation of the Universe as a Quatum Process" page 378)

"Science and religion...are friends, not foes, in the common quest for
knowledge. Some people may find this surprising, for there's a feeling
throughout our society that religious belief is outmoded, or downright
impossible, in a scientific age. I don't agree. In fact, I'd go so far
as to say that if people in this so-called 'scientific age' knew a bit
more about science than many of them actually do, they'd find it easier
to share my views."

(Physicist John Polkinghorne, "Quarks, Chaos, and Christianity")

"Science...has become identified with a philosophy known as materialism
or scientific naturalism. This philosophy insists that nature is all
there is, or at least the only thing about which we can have any
knowledge. It follows that nature had to do its own creating, and that
the means of creation must have included any role for God."

(Professor Phillip E. Johnson, "The Church Of Darwin," Wall Street
Journal, August 16, 1999)

Chance Renders Evolution Impossible

"The probability of a single protein molecule being arranged by chance
is, 1 in 10-161 power, using all the atoms on earth and allowing all the
time since the world began...for a minimum set of required 239 protein
molecules for the smallest theoretical life, the probability is, 1 in
10-119,879 power. It would take, 10-119,879 power, years on average to
get a set of such proteins. That is 10-119,831 times the assumed age of
the earth and is a figure with 119,831 zeros."

(Dr. James Coppege from, "The Farce of Evolution" page 71)

"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to
a number with 40,000 nought's after it...It is big enough to bury Darwin
and the whole theory of Evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither
on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not
random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful
intelligence."

(Sir Fred Hoyle, highly respected British astronomer and mathematician)

"I could prove God statistically; take the human body alone; the chance
that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a
statistical monstrosity."

(George Gallup, the famous statistician)

"The chance that higher life forms might have emerged through
evolutionary processes is comparable with the chance that a tornado
sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the
material therein."

(Sir Fred Hoyle, Highly respected British astronomer and mathematician)

"The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest
form of living organism known is 1 to 10-340,000,000. This number is 1
to 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly
staggering, since there is only supposed to be approximately 10-80 (10
to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!"

(Professor Harold Morowitz)

"The occurrence of any event where the chances are beyond one in ten
followed by 50 zeros is an event which we can state with certainty will
never happen, no matter how much time is allotted and no matter how many
conceivable opportunities could exist for the event to take place."

(Dr. Emile Borel, who discovered the laws of probability)

"The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less we can believe
that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially, the obvious
alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer."

(Professor Richard Dawkins, an atheist)

"The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the
biological world is the notion of special creation."

(Dr. Colin Patterson, evolutionist and senior Paleontologist at the
British Museum of Natural History, which houses 60 million fossils)

"To insist, even with Olympian assurance, that life appeared quite by
chance and evolved in this fashion, is an unfounded supposition which I
believe to be wrong and not in accordance with the facts."

(Dr. Pierre-Paul Grasse, University of Paris & past-president of French
Academy of Science.)

"It is emphatically the case that life could not arise spontaneously in
a primeval soup from its kind."

(Dr. A.E Wilder Smith, chemist and former evolutionist)

"The idea of spontaneous generation of life in its present form is
therefore highly improbable even to the scale of the billions of years
during which prebotic evolution occurred."

(Dr. Ilya Prigogine, Nobel Prize winner)

"The complexity of the simplest known type cell is so great that it is
impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together
by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable event. Such an occurrence
would be indistinguishable from a miracle."

(Dr. Michael Denton, molecular biochemist)

"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the
probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in
a printing shop."

(Dr. Edwin Conklin, evolutionist and professor of biology at Princeton
University.)

"Hypothesis [evolution] based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the
facts....These classical evolutionary theories are a gross
over-simplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts,
and it amazes me that they are swallowed so uncritically and readily,
and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of
protest."

(Sir Ernst Chan, Nobel Prize winner for developing penicillin)

"All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into
it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We all
believe as an article of faith that life evolved from dead matter on
this planet. It is just that life's complexity is so great, it is hard
for us to imagine that it did."

(Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Prize winner)

"The world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be
due to chance alone. I am convinced that the existence of life with all
its order in each of its organisms is simply too well put together. Each
part of a living thing depends on all its other parts to function. How
does each part know? How is each part specified at conception? The more
one learns of biochemistry the more unbelievable it becomes unless there
is some type of organizing principle---an architect."

(Scientist Allan Sandage)

"One may well find oneself beginning to doubt whether all this could
conceivably be the product of an enormous lottery presided over by
natural selection, blindly picking the rare winners from among numbers
drawn at utter random.....nevertheless although the miracle of life
stands "explained" it does not strike us as any less miraculous. As
Francois Mauriac wrote, "What this professor says is far more incredible
than what we poor Christians believe."

(French Biochemist and Nobel Prize winner, Jacques Monod, "Chance and
Necessity.")

"A further aspect I should like to discuss is what I call the practice
of infinite escape clauses. I believe we developed this practice to
avoid facing the conclusion that the probability of self-reproducing
state is zero. This is what we must conclude from classical quantum
mechanical principles as Wigner demonstrated"

(Sidney W. Fox, "The Origins of Pre-Biological Systems)

"In terms of their basic biochemical design....no living system can be
thought of as being primitive or ancestral with respect to any other
system, nor is there the slightest empirical hint of an evolutionary
sequence among all the incredibly diverse cells on earth."

(Dr. Michael Denton, molecular biochemist)

"We have always underestimated the cell...The entire cell can be viewed
as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly
lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein
machines...Why do we call [them] machines? Precisely because, like
machines invented by humans to deal efficiently with the macroscopic
world, these protein assemblies contain highly coordinated moving parts."

(Bruce Alberts, President, National; Academy of Sciences "The Cell as a
Collectrion of Protein Machines," Cell 92, February 8, 1998)

"We should reject, as a matter of principle the substitution of
intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity; but we must
concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the
evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful
speculations."

(Biochemist, Franklin M. Harold "The Way of the Cell," page 205)

"Evolutionary biologists have been able to pretend to know how complex
biological systems originated only because they treated them as black
boxes. Now that biochemists have opened the black boxes and seen what is
inside, they know the Darwinian theory is just a story, not a scientific
explanation."

(Professor Phillip E. Johnson)

"The simplicity that was once expected to be the foundation of life has
proven to be a phantom; instead, systems of horrendous, irreducible
complexity inhabit the cell. The resulting realization that life was
designed by an intelligence is a shock to us in the twentieth century
who have gotten used to thinking of life as the result of simple natural
laws. But other centuries have had their shocks, and there is no reason
to suppose that we should escape them. Humanity has endured as the
center of the heavens moved from the earth to beyond the sun, as the
history of life expanded to encompass long-dead reptiles, as the eternal
universe proved mortal. We will endure the opening of Darwin's Black box"

(Michael j. Behe, Biochemist "Darwin's Black Box, pg. 252")

"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could
only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment
to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had
to have been satisfied to get it going."

(Dr. Francis Crick, biochemist, Nobel Prize winner, Life Itself: Its
Origin and Nature, pg. 88)

"Contrary to the popular notion that only creationism relies on the
supernatural, evolutionism must as well, since the probabilities of
random formation of life are so tiny as to require a 'miracle' for
spontaneous generation tantamount to a theological argument."

(Dr. Chandra Wickramasinge, cited in, Creation vs Evolution, John
Ankerberg, pg. 20.)

"Complex molecules that are essential to particular organisms often have
such a vast information content as...to make the theory of evolution
impossible."

(Bird, Origin of Species Revisited, Vol. 1, pg. 71)

"A close inspection discovers an empirical impossibility to be inherent
in the idea of evolution."

(Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson, Swedish botanist and geneticist, English
Summary of Synthetische Artbildung, pg. 1142-43, 1186.)

0 Replies
 
Stevo2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 09:47 pm
gungaman:

You've made an appeal to authority, but to the wrong authority. Farmerman specified peer reviewed research and papers citing evidence. I can only see quotes. Try again.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 11:11 pm
gungasnake wrote:


"Many have a feeling that somehow intelligence must have been involved
in the laws of the universe."

(Charles Townes, 1964 Nobel Prize winner in physics, "Science Finds
God," Newsweek, 20 July, 1998)

"


And here's another quote from him.."People who want to exclude evolution on the basis of intelligent design, I guess they're saying, "Everything is made at once and then nothing can change." But there's no reason the universe can't allow for changes and plan for them, too. People who are anti-evolution are working very hard for some excuse to be against it. I think that whole argument is a stupid one. Maybe that's a bad word to use in public, but it's just a shame that the argument is coming up that way, because it's very misleading. "
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/06/17_townes.shtml

As to the rest of the quotes...some are very out of date...Watson is from 1929, and out of context, like the ones from Raup, Ethridge, Gould, Patterson, Urey, et al. Others, like Tahmisian, Milikan and Bliss are creationists. In fact, Bliss is Curriculum Director Institute for Creation Research, so what do you expect him to say? He adheres to their mission statement "No apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp

You can find quite a few of the out-of-context quotes here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-4.html#quote58

Next time, do your homework.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 11:15 pm
gungasnake wrote:
You say you need some more recent quotes??

Quote:



"There are only two possibilities as to how life arose; one is
spontaneous generation arising to evolution, the other is a supernatural
creative act of God, there is no third possibility. Spontaneous
generation that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically
disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with
only one possible conclusion, that life arose as a creative act of God.
I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe
in God, therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is
scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution."

(Dr. George Wald, evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the
University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology.) ...


Lets take a closer look at gunga's lead-off "more recent" quote - below is the real deal, what Wald actually said, cited verbatim from the publication in which he said it:
Quote:
... The great idea emerges originally in the consciousness of the race as a vague intuition; and this is the form it keeps, rude and imposing, in myth, tradition and poetry. This is its core, its enduring aspect. In this form science finds it, clothes it with fact, analyses its content, develops its detail, rejects it, and finds it ever again. In achieving the scientific view, we do not ever wholly lose the intuitive, the mythological. Both have meaning for us, and neither is complete without the other. The Book of Genesis contains still our poem of the Creation; and when God questions Job out of the whirlwind, He questions us.

Let me cite an example. Throughout our history we have entertained two kinds of views of the origin of life: one that life was created supernaturally, the other that it arose "spontaneously" from nonliving material. In the 17th to 19th centuries those opinions provided the ground of a great and bitter controversy. There came a curious point, toward the end of the 18th century, when each side of the controversy was represented by a Roman Catholic priest. The principle opponent of the theory of the spontaneous generation was then the Abbe Lazzaro Spallanzani, an Italian priest; and its principal champion was John Turberville Needham, an English Jesuit.

Since the only alternative to some form of spontaneous generation is a belief in supernatural creation, and since the latter view seems firmly implanted in the Judeo-Christian theology, I wondered for a time how a priest could support the theory of spontaneous generation. Needham tells one plainly. The opening paragraphs of the Book of Genesis can in fact be reconciled with either view. In its first account of Creation, it says not quite that God made living things, but He commanded the earth and waters to produce them. The language used is: "let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life.... Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind." In the second version of creation the language is different and suggests a direct creative act: "And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air...." In both accounts man himself--and woman--are made by God's direct intervention. The myth itself therefore offers justification for either view. Needham took the position that the earth and waters, having once been ordered to bring forth life, remained ever after free to do so; and this is what we mean by spontaneous generation.

This great controversy ended in the mid-19th century with the experiments of Louis Pasteur, which seemed to dispose finally of the possibility of spontaneous generation. For almost a century afterward biologists proudly taught their students this history and the firm conclusion that spontaneous generation had been scientifically refuted and could not possibly occur. Does this mean that they accepted the alternative view, a supernatural creation of life? Not at all. They had no theory of the origin of life, and if pressed were likely to explain that questions involving such unique events as origins and endings have no place in science.

A few years ago, however, this question re-emerged in a new form. Conceding that spontaneous generation doe not occur on earth under present circumstances, it asks how, under circumstances that prevailed earlier upon this planet, spontaneous generation did occur and was the source of the earliest living organisms. Within the past 10 years this has gone from a remote and patchwork argument spun by a few venturesome persons--A. I. Oparin in Russia, J. B. S. Haldane in England--to a favored position, proclaimed with enthusiasm by many biologists.

Have I cited here a good instance of my thesis? I had said that in these great questions one finds two opposed views, each of which is periodically espoused by science. In my example I seem to have presented a supernatural and a naturalistic view, which were indeed opposed to each other, but only one of which was ever defended scientifically. In this case it would seem that science has vacillated, not between two theories, but between one theory and no theory.

That, however, is not the end of the matter. Our present concept of the origin of life leads to the position that, in a universe composed as ours is, life inevitably arises wherever conditions permit. We look upon life as part of the order of nature. It does not emerge immediately with the establishment of that order; long ages must pass before it appears. Yet given enough time, it is an inevitable consequence of that order. When speaking for myself, I do not tend to make sentences containing the word God; but what do those persons mean who make such sentences? They mean a great many different things; indeed I would be happy to know what they mean much better than I have yet been able to discover. I have asked as opportunity offered, and intend to go on asking. What I have learned is that many educated persons now tend to equate their concept of God with their concept of the order of nature. This is not a new idea; I think it is firmly grounded in the philosophy of Spinoza. When we as scientists say then that life originated inevitably as part of the order of our universe, we are using different words but do not necessary mean a different thing from what some others mean who say that God created life. It is not only in science that great ideas come to encompass their own negation. That is true in religion also; and man's concept of God changes as he changes.
Wald, G., "Innovation and Biology," Scientific American, V. 199, Sept. 1958, pp. 100 -101 - (Any public or academic library will be able to provide microfiche or digitized reproduction of the article as cited)

Anyhow, apart from the "more recent" quote being nearly 50 years old, what Wald said - VERBATIM AND IN CONTEXT - not the quote miner's bowdlerized version, but what Wald actually said - in no way supports the proposition gunga would use it to defend, and in fact specifically and unambiguously addresses, rebutts and refutes that proposition.

Then there is in the purported quote, as authored by whatever quote mine repository gunga lifted it from (evidently, the entire piece gunga lifted - without attribution - originated some years back on the now-suspended personal, Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christian-themed website myfortress.org, and since has gained great currency, and broad mirroring, chiefly among the Christian Creationist/ID-iot website crowd), the glaring, nonsensical grammar/usage error:

" ... Spontaneous generation that life arose from non-living matter ... "

That's hardly something that might have issued from the pen or keyboard of so accomplished, erudite, and precise an academician as the late Dr. Wald, and certainly not something that would have eluded the platoon of editors and proofreaders through whose hands the essay would had to have passed on its way to publication in Scientific American - a highly regarded periodical particularly noted for proper, even punctilious, English grammar and usage.

Oh, and while the quote mine version terms Dr. Wald " ... Nobel Prize winner in Biology ... ", there is no such award. To be fair to Dr. Ward, however, it should be mentioned he was 1967 Nobel Co-Laureate in Medicine, along with Drs. Ragnar Grant and H. K. Hartline, for their work pertaining to the physiologic and chemical processes involved with vision.

Now, while I suppose at least some of the purported quotes in the piece of crackpottery gunga supplied might check out less to the piece's - and gunga's - discredit than its lead-off "reference", I suspect quite a few would fail the smell test if subjected to it. I see little point pressing that further; per falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus (the time-honored basic legal principle that testimony which is false in part is false in total), gungas attempted justification stands impeached.
0 Replies
 
chiso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jan, 2007 11:18 pm
Eorl wrote:
Chiso,

That you won't take the time (or make the effort) to even read the post says far more about you than it does about anyone else, and it certainly devalues any further input from you on the subject.


I think the reason you haven't read it, and that no one on here has read it, is that everyone realizes the waste of time it will be. I think we've all made a good choice there.
0 Replies
 
 

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