4
   

Remind Me Again... We're Staying In Iraq Why?

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 12:03 am
We're staying in Iraq so that the deaths of the troops that have gone before will have meaning.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 09:02 am
DrewDad wrote:
We're staying in Iraq so that the deaths of the troops that have gone before will have meaning.


to who
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 09:15 am
We are staying in Iraq because to remove Saddam without fully establishing a stable replacement governing body would be tantamount to inciting a religious civil war that could envelope the entire Middle East.

I forget who first issued that warning.


Joe(Oh, I remember. It was George's dad.)Nation
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 09:19 am
The way to establish a stable government appears to be that we must exterminate all personell but the government.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 10:43 am
Joe Nation wrote:
We are staying in Iraq because to remove Saddam without fully establishing a stable replacement governing body would be tantamount to inciting a religious civil war that could envelope the entire Middle East.

I forget who first issued that warning.


Joe(Oh, I remember. It was George's dad.)Nation


surely you aren't suggesting Joe that what we have done is merely tantamount to starting a religious civil war..... :wink:
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 11:48 am
We're staying in Iraq because our President has not fully grasped that when the Iraqis elected this government under the system we devised, they mostly voted not because they had hopes the government would survive but because they didn't want their opponents to get the upper hand in ANYTHING.

So the Sunnis voted because they didn't want the Shiites to get the upper hand in the new government, however long it lasts. And the Shiites voted because they didn't want the Sunnis to get the upper hand in the new government, however long it lasts. And the Kurds voted because they want their claim to self-government to be carried on any available political vehicle, no matter how long it lasts.

But that doesn't mean that anyone in Iraq really has any particular loyalty to this government. Maliki is not George Washington.

So our President still thinks that if we hang on long enough, this new government can become strong enough and the Iraqi forces can be built up enough to defend the country. He thinks this, even though the Iraqi forces are largely made up of militia men who turned in their arms when cornered by the Americans and in return were promised jobs in the Iraqi Forces. Surprise-we now find the Iraqi Forces are beset by "infiltrators".

Up to now, the Iraqi forces have been limited to SWAT team like police actions where an insurgent leader might be hiding in a house, and they go in and arrest him. They are accompanied on these actions by coalition forces. In cases where they suspect a gunfire confrontation, coalition forces "seal off the perimeter" around the action. It is unclear whether they do that to prevent insurgents from escaping or to prevent Iraqi Forces from leaving.

Bush believes that somehow, if we just hang in there, Iraqis will develop actual loyalty to this government that they don't have now, and an army made up substantially of insurgents who surrendered will be able to defend this government against insurgents who haven't surrendered.

As to how Bush can ignore the fact that the country has broken out in civil war, remember that this is the same president who for days manged to ignore that a major, world famous American city was under water. If Bush can ignore what is going on in his own country, imagine how he can ignore what is going on in a different country on the other side of the world.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 02:50 pm
Quote:
surely you aren't suggesting Joe that what we have done is merely tantamount to starting a religious civil war.....


Bear, we have spotted this gigantic hornet's nest up in the eave of the Middle East Barn. We have devised a plan to remove it. We have climbed a twelve foot stepladder holding a large plastic bag and a putty knife. We have gotten the putty knife up under the eave and, while holding the open bag under the buzzing hornet's nest, we have managed to get the nest to drop into the bag.

We are now holding the bag. We are holding the bag with both hands.

It is clear: we cannot let go of one hand to climb down, we cannot put the hornet's nest back up, meanwhile inside the bag the hornets are becoming more and more agitated.

And it is getting dark.

We are out of ideas.
We are out of plans.

Joe(Mission Accomplished)Nation
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 02:52 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
surely you aren't suggesting Joe that what we have done is merely tantamount to starting a religious civil war.....


Bear, we have spotted this gigantic hornet's nest up in the eave of the Middle East Barn. We have devised a plan to remove it. We have climbed a twelve foot stepladder holding a large plastic bag and a putty knife. We have gotten the putty knife up under the eave and, while holding the open bag under the buzzing hornet's nest, we have managed to get the nest to drop into the bag.

We are now holding the bag. We are holding the bag with both hands.

It is clear: we cannot let go of one hand to climb down, we cannot put the hornet's nest back up, meanwhile inside the bag the hornets are becoming more and more agitated.

And it is getting dark.

We are out of ideas.
We are out of plans.

Joe(Mission Accomplished)Nation

...and we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by a WMD from Iraq. Now tell me that we were absolutely certain of this before the invasion.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 02:54 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
surely you aren't suggesting Joe that what we have done is merely tantamount to starting a religious civil war.....


Bear, we have spotted this gigantic hornet's nest up in the eave of the Middle East Barn. We have devised a plan to remove it. We have climbed a twelve foot stepladder holding a large plastic bag and a putty knife. We have gotten the putty knife up under the eave and, while holding the open bag under the buzzing hornet's nest, we have managed to get the nest to drop into the bag.

We are now holding the bag. We are holding the bag with both hands.

It is clear: we cannot let go of one hand to climb down, we cannot put the hornet's nest back up, meanwhile inside the bag the hornets are becoming more and more agitated.

And it is getting dark.

We are out of ideas.
We are out of plans.

Joe(Mission Accomplished)Nation

...and we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by a WMD from Iraq. Now tell me that we were absolutely certain of this before the invasion.


and how are we absolutely certain of that? bullshit.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 02:56 pm
Millions of people knew we were being lied to by Bush about reasons to start this stupid, unwinnable war, well in advance. That is part of the reason there were so many demonstrations against it before the first shot was fired.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 03:03 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by a WMD from Iraq.


This statement, Brandon, is clearly a lie. Why do you lie to us?
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 03:11 pm
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by a WMD from Iraq.


This statement, Brandon, is clearly a lie. Why do you lie to us?


Because a bankrupt policy requires a similarly specious defense. Assuming one has the gall to rise to it's defense...
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 03:12 pm
I can't think of a single thing that I am absolutely certain of, I don't think that you can make the case that you are absolutely certain of anything either, but let's not quibble .

If you and the Bush Administration had been paying attention to reality, and not some fig newtons of the WMD imagination, you would have been much more concerned with countries and individuals who actually HAD some WMDs and real connections with radical Islamic forces. It is far more likely now that A.Q. Khan of Pakistan has delivered the means to kill millions into the hands of those who would kill millions. None of them are in Iraq, none of them are in Afghanistan and, except for the equipment bound for Libya, none of them have ever been found or brought to justice, including Dr. Khan himself.

So I am happy you think you are absolutely certain about the safety of American cities protected now from the WMDs of Iraq, but you do realize that that makes you absolutely certain about something that was never an absolute certainty itself.

Joe(A trick of the mind.)Nation
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 03:23 pm
I am absoulutely certain that I may or may not wake up tomorrow.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 03:26 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
I am absoulutely certain that I may or may not wake up tomorrow.


I'm impressed, Nostradamus.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 03:33 pm
that's Nostradumass....
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 06:26 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
surely you aren't suggesting Joe that what we have done is merely tantamount to starting a religious civil war.....


Bear, we have spotted this gigantic hornet's nest up in the eave of the Middle East Barn. We have devised a plan to remove it. We have climbed a twelve foot stepladder holding a large plastic bag and a putty knife. We have gotten the putty knife up under the eave and, while holding the open bag under the buzzing hornet's nest, we have managed to get the nest to drop into the bag.

We are now holding the bag. We are holding the bag with both hands.

It is clear: we cannot let go of one hand to climb down, we cannot put the hornet's nest back up, meanwhile inside the bag the hornets are becoming more and more agitated.

And it is getting dark.

We are out of ideas.
We are out of plans.

Joe(Mission Accomplished)Nation

...and we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by a WMD from Iraq. Now tell me that we were absolutely certain of this before the invasion.


and how are we absolutely certain of that? bullshit.

I agree that that was an incorrect statement. A correct statement would be that we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by the WMD from the development programs that Saddam Hussein had at one time conducted, and that we would not have really known this without invading. Indeed, without continued hints from the US over the years that invasion was possible, Saddam's WMD programs might have continued to fruition.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 06:27 pm
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by a WMD from Iraq.


This statement, Brandon, is clearly a lie. Why do you lie to us?

A moment ago, upon seeng BPB's objection, I admitted that the post was in error and re-stated it correctly. By what means do you conclude that every person who is incorrect is lying? That is, in and of itself, a characteristic of liars.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 06:31 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
I can't think of a single thing that I am absolutely certain of, I don't think that you can make the case that you are absolutely certain of anything either, but let's not quibble .

If you and the Bush Administration had been paying attention to reality, and not some fig newtons of the WMD imagination, you would have been much more concerned with countries and individuals who actually HAD some WMDs and real connections with radical Islamic forces. It is far more likely now that A.Q. Khan of Pakistan has delivered the means to kill millions into the hands of those who would kill millions. None of them are in Iraq, none of them are in Afghanistan and, except for the equipment bound for Libya, none of them have ever been found or brought to justice, including Dr. Khan himself.

So I am happy you think you are absolutely certain about the safety of American cities protected now from the WMDs of Iraq, but you do realize that that makes you absolutely certain about something that was never an absolute certainty itself.

Joe(A trick of the mind.)Nation

We are now absolutely certan that Saddam Hussein will never succeed in the WMD development programs that he once conducted, and use such weapons to obliterate a western city and kill hundreds of thousands of people, if not more. We were not certain of this before invading. Yes, I am also concerned about other sources of WMD proliferation.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 06:35 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
we are absolutely certain that no US or western city will ever be obliterated by a WMD from Iraq.


This statement, Brandon, is clearly a lie. Why do you lie to us?

A moment ago, upon seeng BPB's objection, I admitted that the post was in error and re-stated it correctly. By what means do you conclude that every person who is incorrect is lying? That is, in and of itself, a characteristic of liars.


I did not say that "every person who is incorrect is lying". I asked why you were lying. Why do misstate what I said? It seems you cannot build an argument countering what I really said. Instead, you have to mischaracterize my statement. A simple "I was wrong" would have sufficed.
0 Replies
 
 

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