Why so many of the poor remain poor

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Frank Apisa- You wrote:[/color][/b]

Quote:
Some people will never have the disposition to compete successfully for the money. Their sense of dignity and concern for their fellow human being will never allow them to run roughshod over others in order to line their pockets no matter the cost to the rest of humanity - or to any other individual.

I think that this statment too, is much too broad. The implicit assumption is that the gain of one necessitates the loss to another. I think that is a
very pessimistic outlook concerning your evaluation of humanity. Yes, it is true that SOME people will run over everyone to get what they want, but IMO it is callous to think that most people who make a lot of money do it in that way.

Are you familiar with the concept of win-win?

Phoenix, I am familiar with the concept of win/win.

I think you have misinterpreted my comment here.

It was one of two comments I made -- and when read in tandem with the other, does not lead to the "implicit assumption" you seem to see in it.

I was trying to illustrate that some people will never be able to compete for the money either because of 1) inability or 2) lack of willingness to do SOME OF THE THINGS that lead to money.

I don't really want to argue this in detail. You normally are an astute reader. Please look my post over again -- and see if it doesn't lead elsewhere from where you seem to think it was going.

CI -- Thanks for sharing. I am sure we are the better for our experience -- and my guess is that we share that in common with many here at A2K.

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patiodog- Let us take your example of grain. So there are finite resources. Let us say that someone develops a way to increase crop yield, or invents and develops an alternate foodstuff to supplement grain, and becomes very rich from his discovery. Is that not a win-win situation?

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Sure, it is. And how many people do you know, wealthy or otherwise, have made such contributions? How many of the dollars that go into the tanks of Ford Expeditions come from real contributions to human society, and how many come from profiteering?

Don't get me wrong; I don't harbor malice toward individuals of any particular economic class solely on that basis -- but there is no way I can believe that the distribution of wealth among individuals is at all equitable any more than I believe that the distribution of resources among nations is equitable. Do I begrudge the wealthy man his money? No, though I will begrudge him ostentatious consumerism. Do I think anyone really deserves to be wealthy -- even wealthy as would be in the eyes of most people in the world? No, I do not.

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I just took an extreme example with the grain. But every day, in small ways, people are making money honestly, and creating wealth. Some are becoming rich through their efforts, and other people benefit.

The problem is that some people are envious of the good fortune of others, and assume that the good fortune was somehow gained in a dishonest way. This sometimes DOES happen, but not in the vast majority of instances.

I have never been envious of the rich. Many of them, because of THEIR effort, have afforded society a higher, more comfortable level of living that most people could not have acheived by themselves.

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Fact is, many of the truly poor -- are not envious of the rich.

Certainly my Mom never was -- and I've known many poor people who do not envy them. In fact, I know many poor people who suppose they have a better life -- filled with a "better" kind of fulfillment than they see in the lives of rich people.

The most envious of people seem to be those people who are close to well-off (or even well-off) but just never seem to have enough.

I might even go further and note that several people whom I know who seem to be "haves" in every sense of the word -- are the most envious of people further up the ladder.

It is a sickness that seems to get worse as things improve.

Does what I'm saying strike a chord with anyone? Do you have similar experience along these lines?

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Yeah, sorry about that. I've got a few things going on on this thread.

One is that I know more brokers and lawyers than I'd care to, which can certainly contribute to the impression of the wealthier classes as parasitic, however meritorious individual people might be.

Another is that I think the human species has overshot its carrying capacity and that massive death and suffering in the near future is inevitable, and the impact we are having on the rest of the life on the planet is horrific. I'm a pretty modest materialist in my surroundings, but there is no way that everybody could have anything like the material comfort I've got at home.

Please excuse me for looking at the world and thinking that the general human condition is poverty, and those of us -- myself included -- who avoid this misery by material gain and consumption must, economically, be taking opportunity for gain and consumption from someone else.

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McG

Thanks for that last post of yours.

I've finally calmed down a bit -- and I want to make that apology a bit warmer.

I was off base attacking you personally.

I have struggled with my disposition to go off half-cocked all my life -- and in fact, probably envy people in control of their anger more than people who have big bucks.

I enjoyed that story about your Mom in West Virginia. Some of the poor folks I know come from West Virginia - a state that probably has more than its fair share of have nots.

I've lived in New Jersey all my life -- and our state probably has a higher percentage of haves than any other state.

But I ain't one of them.

I have a ball, though, and I would not trade my happy life for big money -- unless I could be assured I would still be happy.

(I suspect I would be! So I hope my bother hits the lottery soon and shares it with me.)

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Frank --

Most of my impressions of New Jersey have come from Franklin Lakes and Chester/Mendham; sorry if I occasionally, here or there, sleight your home because of that.

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Frank I'd still like to know why you said that was the worst post I've ever made.....

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(I think he thought you meant it, bear.)

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Well if that's the case please allow me to point to the rolling eyes emoticon at the end of the last sentence........sarcasm....I'm well known for employing it Cool

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There is a saying: Just because you can't afford the finer things in life doesn't mean you can't afford beer. Which leads me to my next point....I think the important thing is to make what you do have work best for you and screw everyone else. What are you, some kind of voyeur, gonna look at their lives and consume yourself over it? Forget it....go outside, adopt a dog from the humane society, hang out with good friends or family, have sex, have a drink, and enjoy.

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Just don't have sex with the dog.

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patiodog- Whatever rows your boat! (Assuming that the dog is a consenting adult!)

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There's nothing worse than someone who's both well-off and self-congratulatory about it. We do indeed measure people by their financial success -- wrongly, but we do, and it's something this society is going to have to change. Certainly the rich are allowed more leeway socially, culturally, and in our justice system than the poor.

I grew up among the very, very rich (I'm not, I'm an artist). Some were pretentious and selfish; others were just the opposite. We wouldn't have the museums and symphonies and other goodies if it weren't for the latter. It makes the best of good sense to allow tax breaks for generosity; it makes no sense to have a system (however we arrived at this godawful mess) in which some are loaded and others have nothing. Worst of all: those who have nothing are regarded, in this land of the self-serving Protestant rhetoric, as less worthy. My view is just the opposite: if you are very rich and keep it, you're a piece of sh*t; if you're very rich and very generous, you're a mensch. If you are very poor and unable to get or keep a job, kindly use your vote well in the next election and help us remove from power the people for whom inequality and free rides are some sort of self-validation.

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Quote:

If you are very poor and unable to get or keep a job, kindly use your vote well in the next election and help us remove from power the people for whom inequality and free rides are some sort of self-validation.

Interesting "take". Looks like all sides of the political spectrum favor one group of people over another. A person's attitude towards this is just a matter of which group that you are in!

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Ooopps.

Sorry Bear, I forgot you asked me a question.

Ahhhh....yeah, I thought you meant it. I thought you may have had a seizure of some kind.

Glad to find out you were just kidding.

I should not read lots of posts when I'm pissed. I tend to go nuts.

But I should have answered you -- and just forgot.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
If you are very poor and unable to get or keep a job, kindly use your vote well in the next election and help us remove from power the people for whom inequality and free rides are some sort of self-validation.

Interesting "take". Looks like all sides of the political spectrum favor one group of people over another. A person's attitude towards this is just a matter of which group that you are in!

Being chairman of the board of a local foodbank and dealing with the poor a couple times a week is at best difficult and very complex. You wanna have compassion and we give it. Breaking the cycle is another story and I'm working on that one. It's like trying to water-ski with cementboots.

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pd, wasn't it implied in the original post that most poor people just sit around f--king the dog? Very Happy

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Some observations, NOT MEANT TO CAUSE OFFENSE! about SOME poor people that I have seen and known.

Poor people tend to smoke and drink.
Poor people seem to have lower education levels
Poor people seem to feel that they are "owed" something

-I say these things because:
-I can't afford to smoke or drink because I have bills to pay.
-I enjoyed a free education in a city school that was available to everyone in the city. I then paid my own way through college.
-I don't feel the govt owes me anything by way of support.

Sometimes I am envious of people that make just slightly less than I do who get to take advantage of certain government programs...

I do not understand the mindset.

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Why so many of the poor remain poor

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