I Was a Big "Kramer" Fan...

I remember from some years ago that the Kramer pictures were sold at art gallery showrooms, and I'm sure many purchased those poster-size pictures. I wonder how many are still up on display - especially by blacks and other minorities?

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Mame wrote:

kickycan wrote:
This has nothing specifically to do with this Kramer thing really, but it's somewhat related, I think, so here it is.

Certain comedians like to push the envelope and say things that are shocking, for the challenge of trying to make it funny. I have a video clip of Bill Hicks going off on a female heckler by running around the stage pretending to be her, yelling, "Hey, everybody! Look at me! I'm a drunk C*NT, so I can yell things at the comedian! I can say whatever I want, because I'm a drunk C*NT! I'm a drunk C*NT!"

Now, reading that, I'm sure most people would automatically heap scorn and derision on him just like they are doing with Richards right now. But somehow in the Bill Hicks situation, nobody got offended to the point that they walked out, and, in fact, most people were laughing throughout the whole thing.

I wonder what the difference is. Is it just that the N-word is so taboo for white people to say that it can't be done in a funny way by any white person? Or it could be because of the way he said it. Or maybe it's just about the expectations of the audience. Or maybe it's just that Bill Hicks was so much better at his craft that the audience trusted him enough to go with it. Either way, I find it fascinating how and where the lines are drawn, what is and what isn't offensive, and how, in different situations, the rules for these things can change.

I didn't see the Bill Hicks video clip, so can't comment, but I think some of what turned people off, Kicky, was Michael's over-the-top reaction and rage at this guy. It was not proportional to the situation. Plus, why use racist comments - purely irrelevant. I would have used the word Moron, perhaps...

Quite possible. I'm pretty sure it's simply an inflexible taboo for any white comedian to shout out, "He's a nigger!" like that to some member of the audience. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing a white comedian ever use the word in their act. I guess good comedians know where the lines are.

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I'm sure that I, as a woman, find the C word just as offensive as blacks find the N word.

I don't know who Bill Hicks is - maybe if I saw him I might recognize him -but just by reading this about him on here, I know that I will never intentionally watch him perform in the future.

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Everyone is so focused on the "n-word" part of it-- that doesn't seem as bad to me as the absolutely hateful stuff he was screaming about what would've been done to the guy in the past. That **** about how the guy would've been hanging upside down (or whatever he said-- can't really remember, don't care to hear it again, either), that was by far the worst part to me. I don't care how angry you are, I don't think anyone with a conscience would talk that way about the horrible things done to black people in this country's history.

Kicky compared it to Bill Hicks calling a female heckler a c*nt. To me it would be more comparable to a man going off on a rage-filled rant about someone deserving to be raped or something like that. That kind of thing, to me, is much worse than just the use of an ugly word. And you have to be a hateful person to say that kind of thing, no matter how angry you are.

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happycat wrote:

I'm sure that I, as a woman, find the C word just as offensive as blacks find the N word.

I don't know who Bill Hicks is - maybe if I saw him I might recognize him -but just by reading this about him on here, I know that I will never intentionally watch him perform in the future.

Don't worry, he's dead, so you won't have to. But why would you never want to see him, based on just that one incident? Isn't that what you've been arguing against this whole time?

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Stray Cat, I had a similar react to the whole thing. Yeah, the use of n'ggr was one thing, but the reference back to lynching made it all the more creepy and racist. It was more than just name calling- it was like he was condoning the horrific actions of the past.

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kickycan wrote:

happycat wrote:
I'm sure that I, as a woman, find the C word just as offensive as blacks find the N word.

I don't know who Bill Hicks is - maybe if I saw him I might recognize him -but just by reading this about him on here, I know that I will never intentionally watch him perform in the future.

Don't worry, he's dead, so you won't have to. But why would you never want to see him, based on just that one incident? Isn't that what you've been arguing against this whole time?

Bill Hicks was a genius....

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happycat wrote:

I'm sure that I, as a woman, find the C word just as offensive as blacks find the N word.

I don't know who Bill Hicks is - maybe if I saw him I might recognize him -but just by reading this about him on here, I know that I will never intentionally watch him perform in the future.

what c word are you talking about?

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While Lenny Bruce did not directly call anybody the N word, he did use it in his performances. He suggested John Kennedy go on national TV and repeat the word thousands of times, until it lost all meaning for us. He used racial slurs often, but in a way meant to educate rather than insult.

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I'm not clear on why c-nt is worse than pr--k or the many variations of either of those.

I'll agree with those who were more disturbed by the descriptive referencing - I think - lynching than by the presumed (and in this case rather clearly because of the apparent rage) perjorative N word.

I'm one of the few who's never seen Seinfeld, as I more or less quit with the tv a long time ago. (Though I did see Whoopie Goldberg and Sam Kinnison at the Comedy Club, or whatever it was called, on Sunset in the early eighties.)

I think just about everything can be laughed about, made a comedic subject, and sometimes those subjects have a tragic subtext. I reserve a right to complain, and I do sometimes - that's free speech too, even part of the context when the art is 'the whole process'. This situation seems... seems... an unleashing of real hate. But of course I don't know what is in someone's heart.

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This is from a thread I started a while ago, called "The N-Word Briefly Revisited"

Snood:

Quote:

Interesting how our stances soften or shift over time - I don't feel nearly as rigid about the whole thing as I did when I wrote that.

I read through that old thread, and I saw how prickly I was being toward Sozobe - and today I consider Sozobe one of the most thoughtful and caring people here.

Funny how things evolve, ain't it?

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People still lauged when he said "50 years ago we would have had you hanging upside down with a stick up your ass," or whatever it was. He should have left it at that and went on with his act...or he could have tactfully thrown in some black jokes, but just started calling the guy a nigger.

What are you going to do? It's over, he apologized, and that's it.

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The "upside down with a fork" thing and a few "black jokes" - that would've gone over better, you think?

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Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:

What are you going to do? It's over, he apologized, and that's it.

I think the only thing over is his career. Comedy clubs, movie/tv
producers and advertisers are going to black list him (pun sort of intended).

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snood wrote:

The "upside down with a fork" thing and a few "black jokes" - that would've gone over better, you think?

"

Well anything would have gone over better than just yelling "nigger." He didn't completely lose the crowd after the upside down comment. Either way it was stupid.

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The crowd may have been confused.

Takes a bit to decide to walk, if you are near the front, and expected edgy in the first place.

I'm not a comedy club habitue... more of a performance artist habitue, slightly different worlds.

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I found this clip of Michael Richards on youtube. You can hear everything very clearly.

I found this difficult to watch, even though it's less than three minutes.

You'd think the average comedian would be prepared for hecklers, and could've handled the situation a hell of a lot better than this. Richards just digs a deeper hole for himself with every comment he makes.

He just seems pathetic, right up to the point where he walks off the stage.

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ossobuco wrote:

I'm not clear on why c-nt is worse than pr--k or the many variations of either of those.

Are you serious? Rolling Eyes

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cicerone imposter wrote:

JLN, I disagree. That much hate spewed from Richards will not be excused by me!

Do you know or understand the source of this man's hate?

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A TV comedy series relies on it's supporting actors. That is one reason for Seinfeld's success. Another good side was the complete absence of four-letter-words in that show.
Kramer was a crazy character who was totally off the wall; but he was great and much beloved.
Stand-up comedians have a tough job. They have to crank out a never-ending series of funny jokes, not an easy task. That evening, Richards seemed to be high on something. He couldn't stop his rage.
Many comedians commit suicide or become depressed, it seems to go with the pressure of the job.

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I Was a Big "Kramer" Fan...

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