georgeob1 wrote:Setanta wrote:georgeob1 wrote:
Quote:While the internment of Japanese immigrants and their descendents during WWII was a regretable thing, in an historical context it was at least understandable - and far less than was done in comparable situations by other nations (including Japan) under attack or duress from foreign sources.
This is the "oh yeah, well the other guy is worse" argument--a bankrupt "moral" position to take at the best of times. It is, though, right in line with the sorts of defenses commonly advanced in the attempt to excuse the torture condoned by the Shrub and his Forty Thieves of Baghdad.
What do you mean by 'morally bankrupt positions' ? Do you instead advocate the application of moral absolutes to the evaluation of historical and political events?
What I offered was an historical comparison, not a moral judgement. Moreover my claim was that the U.S. action was "understandable" in the light of the times, the circumstances, and the reactions of other nations, Japan included to similar situations involving perceived threats from foreign powers and cultures during the modern era. Nothing "bankrupt " about that.
The constitution is the "moral imperative" to which i refer, and not to any alleged "moral absolute." Article I, Section 9, second and third paragraphs read, in their entirety:
The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
None of those interned, which included literally thousands of naturalized citizens and native citizens was allowed to appeal their detention, nor be released on a write of
habeas corpus. Many thousands permanently lost the property they had owned before internment, which effectively constitutes attainder.
Article IV, Section 2, first paragraph reads, in its entirety:
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
The internment orders were regionally specific, and did not apply to Japanese natives, or their American native citizens in states other than on the west coast, and the territory of Hawaii.
The XIVth Amendment, first section reads, in its entirety:
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I would be sad to think that you needed the pertinence of that passage explained to you.
The internees were deprived of their freedom and of their property without due process, without the right of
habeas corpus, in specific regions only, and many thousands permanently lost their property, which constituted attainder--
even though they had never been tried for nor convicted of any crime. Futhermore, although Germany and Italy were also our enemies in that war, Americans who were natives of Germany or Italy, or their native American children were not deprived of their freedom or property, except in limited cases in which they were given due process, and had access to
habeas corpus.
The only morality involved is the trammelling of the constitutional rights of many Americans, naturalized and native, based on a racist categorization. If you suggest that the times justified such actions, it would as well have justified the internment of the millions of Americans who were natives of Germany and Italy, and their native American children. That thought never occured to anyone.
Your position is bankrupt.
I don't argue that the internment was done in accordance with our Constitution as it is now interpreted. People then argued that there was indeed due process in the internment, but asked few questions about equal protection or other aspects of the question.
In the early 17th century the Japanese reacted rather more intemperately to the growing influence of foreigners & foreign culture in Japan -- against both the foreigners themselves and Japanese people who had adapted foreign manners or religion.
While the passage of 300+ years may have altered the applicable standards of common political morality a bit, I do believe the comparison renders the mid-20th century internment of Japanese settlers here, following the attack on Pearl harbor, at least "understandable".
I havn't read all of this thread; I stopped with Edgar's valid comment, "I have noticed that the more conservative posters are the ones who bring up the blowjobs all the time. No one else gives a damn anymore."
To this old liberal, it was one Clinton's finest hours. And I think it was very patriotic of Monica to assist our president maintain a decent level of stress (not too much but not to little). Thanks, Monica.
I havn't read all of this thread; I stopped with Edgar's valid comment, "I have noticed that the more conservative posters are the ones who bring up the blowjobs all the time. No one else gives a damn anymore."
To this old liberal, it was one Clinton's finest hours. And I think it was very patriotic of Monica to assist our president maintain a decent level of stress (not too much but not to little). Thanks, Monica.
I attempted to edit my post so as not to have the appearance that part of my response was a part of the quote of your post--but the damned site took so long to respond, that i was no longer able to edit. My apologies for what appears to be putting words in your mouth.
In 1600, Tokugawa Ieyasu made himself Shogun by dint of conquest. This is the beginning of the Edo period, referring to the ancient name of what is now Tokoyo. Tokugawa was originally Matsudaira Motoyasu, and his early friend and ally had been Oda Nobunaga. Nobunaga is the first Japanese historical figure well-known in the West, because he was a friend to westerners, and the Jesuits (your old buddies, George) recorded a good deal about him, and sent accounts to Europe.
Tokugawa had been opposed by, among many others, the Buddhists of the Jodo Shinsu sect who allied themselves to dissatisfied peasants and Shinto priests to form the Ikko Ikki, or "single-minded leagues." The Ikko Ikki had a great fortress at Honjangi, and long held out against Oda Nobunaga.
While Matsudaira Motoyasu was still a hostage of Imagawa Yoshimoto, Imagawa attempted to take invade Owari province and destroy the Oda clan, now lead by the black sheep of the family, Oda Nobunaga. Foolishly, he trusted Matsudaira, and gave him command of the forces from Mikawa province to the east of Owari. Matusdaira captured a border fortress, but then stopped the march of the men from Mikawa, and a Okehazama, Imagawa was defeated, and killed in battle. Nobunaga and Motoyasu became friends and allies (Matsudaira went through many name changes, but in 1560, was calling himself Matsudaira Kurando Motoyasu--he would change his name to Tokugawa Ieyasu about 1570), and Matsudaira engaged to hold the east against the powerful Takeda and Uyesugi clans. This he accomplished by allying with Takeda Shingen to conquer the rest of the Imagawa territory (Totoumi and Suruga), and then giving refuge to Imagawa Ujizane (the ineffectual heir of Imagawa Yoshimoto) and allying with Uyesugi Kenshin (considered the greatest soldier of the age) against clan Takeda. All the while, he sent troops and support to clan Oda from his home province of Mikawa.
The Ashikaga clan of Yamashiro west of Kyoto were, at least theoretically, the Shogunal clan. But their authority had already dissipated in the preceeding century, as their deputies were displaced by the powerful new class of the Bushi, the Daimyos (roughly the equivalent of European Dukes, although there is no relations between feudalism in Europe and what is falsely described as feudalism in Japan). The Tendai Buddhists of the temple at Mount Hiei near Kyoto had become powerful in the bureaucracy of the Emperor and the Shogun, so much so that the period before the warring states period is known as the Muromachi period, because the Tendai monks settled in the Muromachi district of Kyoto, and took over the imperial administration. They also began to train Sohei--Buddhist warriors.
To defeat Ashikaga while Matusdaira held the East, Oda Nobunaga marched on Kyoto. He defeated the Ashikaga forces, and the Tendai Sohei, and he did it because he used firearms, and with European advisers, put warships on Lake Biwa, the largest lake in Japan, upon the western shore of which Kyoto sits. Later, his European military advisers would help him to create the navy which was a part of the effort to take down the Honganji monastery in Kaga, one of the most powerful fortresses in Japan.
Defeating the Ashikaga/Sohei alliance, Nobunaga destroyed the Mount Hiei temple (founded by a Chinese monk in the 9th century, it has since been rebuilt, and remains a shrine and pilgrimage site for Tendai Buddhists). This alarmed the Ikko Ikki monks and Sohei of the Jodo Shinsu sect, who relied upon their usual tactic of fomenting peasant rebellion, and the charismatic leader of which--Kosa--formed an alliance with clan Mori--Mori Motonari was considered the most politically astute man in Japan at that time, but this was a tragic mistake on his part. Oda Nobunaga spent ten years and many resources, not the least of which were the firearms and warships of the Europeans (mostly Portugese) whom he courted. Finally, clan Mori was defeated, Honganji was taken, and the Sohei of the Ikko Ikki were destroyed (ironically, the Tendai Sohei had allied themselves with Nobunaga to achieve that end--both Nobunaga and Motoyasu were masters at playing both ends against the middle).
Takeda Shingen attacked Matsudaira, and he was badly defeated. Eventually, Oda Nobunaga came to his relief, and clan Takeda was defeated. In 1573, the aging Takeda Shingen died during a seige, and his very capable son succeeded him, Takeda Katsuyori. But the loyalties to the old Daimyo were not transferred to Katsuyori, even if he had the skills and intelligence of his father. Matusdaira, now for many years known as Tokugawa Ieyasu, held out against clan Takeda, and the east disintegrated as the deaths of Takeda Shingen and Uyesugi Kenshin destroyed all the old loyalties, and Bushi loyalties fragmented. Many Bushi warriors attempted to set up on their own.
Oda Nobunaga was assasinated by Akechi Mitsuhide, and Ieyasu must managed to escape Osaka and return to Mikawa. I will go no further into the complex politics and alliances and betrayals which eventually allowed Tokugawa Ieyasu to claim the Shogunate. First claiming the Shogunal authority in 1600, he faced more than one challenge, and only finally succeeded in 1605. His eldest son had committed sepuku as his mother was executed when they were implicated in the assasination of Oda Nobunaga. He had groomed his third son as his successor and associated him with his rule. His second son had been adopted by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who would actually succeed Tokugawa Ieyasu as Shogun. But as he had adopted the son of Ieyasu, the Tokugawa clan, newly created by Ieyasu, would in fact become the Shogunal dynasty for more than two and a half centuries until the successful Meiji rebellion in the 1860s.
Part of the web of alliances which Ieyasu made was with the remants of the Tendai and Ikko Ikki Sohei warriors, and the price was to promise the expulsion of the foreign devils. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was a little more canny, and simply wanted Christianity prohibited and the Europeans restricted. Both Ieyasu and Hideyoshi knew enough to keep the firearms and cannon with which they had defeated all of their opponents, and by now the Japanese were dependent upon the Portugese and Dutch traders for the Chinese silk without which they could not live. The foreign devils were restricted to Nagasaki, and Christianity was banned on pain of death.
The imposition of those retrictions had more to do with keeping the peace with militant Buddhists and Shinto Bushi, and the peasants (farmers occupied a position in society just below that of the Bushi and the Daimyos, and above that of mere merchants, craftsmen and artists) who had come to believe that the foreign devils were the source of all the ills of the Sengoku, or warring states period. It is doubtful that it was necessarily racially motivated, and it would also be foolish to deny that the Japanese, as has been common with so many other peoples, notably most Europeans, considered themselves superior to the "foreign devils."
**************************************
None of which alters that you are once again appealing to the "oh yeah, well look how bad the other guy is." You should really have known better than to try to throw up Japanese history in my face. Try reading sometime the history of how California treated the Japanese, long, long before the Pearl Harbor attack, in fact, going back one hundred and fifty years and more. I'm not surprised at the targetted racism of the internment, it's part and parcel of how California treated the Japanese for a century--i'm also appalled by it, and amused that you think it is defensible.
By the way George, our constitution as now interpreted? Bullshit--the XIVth Amendment was ratified in 1868--and due process is an unambiguous term.
Setanta, I would never challenge you in a contest of historical pedantry, and would certainly never throw such a challenge in your face.
I think you are insistent on finding dispute where there is none. I suggested that in 1942 some arguments were put forward claiming that the internment s were done with some due process, but none was even attempted claiming that the requirements of the equal protection clause were met. I also noted that neither proposition would be accepted today. It is also a fact that the legally sanctioned forms of racial discrimination, particularly in the South, that today would be quickly struck down based on the avbove provisions (and others), stood unchallenged (in the legal system) in 1942.
Memories of a best friend: Japanese internment
MEMORIES OF A BEST FRIEND
by BumbleBeeBoogie
The 50th anniversary of President Roosevelt's death brings back painful memories of a terrible time in America when unjustified (and illegal?) actions were taken against Japanese- American citizens in war time hysteria. We need to remember so it never can happen again.
Tazako became my best friend in 1939 when her family, who owned the area's only plant nursery, moved to my town. We both were in the 6th grade. Her father and mother immigrated from Japan in 1936, bringing their three little girls with them to make a new life and to escape the war they knew was coming.
Tazako's father was a shy thin man with gray-streaked black hair. His face was sun-tanned from hours spent out doors transplanting flower seedlings from the green house in the back of the nursery. He spoke little English, but we talked for hours about the flowers and how to grow them. When his English failed, he showed me how to plant seeds, transplant them into larger containers, and prune shrubs and trees to promote their growth.
Tazako's mother, a sweet petite woman, sold plants and cut flowers in a little office tucked away in the corner of the nursery where she taught me how to arrange flowers in the Japanese style. Her English was little better than her husband's. When they were not in school, the three daughters helped her with customer translations.
After school, Tazako and I often walked to the small house the family rented at the rear of the nursery's lot. Although we were from different cultures, we were alike in what eleven year old girls all over the world like to do---play games and talk about boys. I was one of the few caucasians welcomed into their home because they knew I loved their close-knit family and their old-country customs.
Tazako and her two older sisters, who had quickly become fluent English speakers, were impatient with their parent's Japanese old-country ways. It was a time when immigrants believed they had to give up their heritage and assimilate into the American culture. The girls never invited their parents to school functions because they were embarrassed by their poor English. They insisted that English be spoken in their home, which was hard for the parents, and they resisted.
When the birth of their mother's forth child drew near, the three girls, Michiko, Umiko and Tazako, pleaded that the baby, the family's first child to be born in America, be given an American name. When a robust boy was born, he was named Harry.
My close friendship with Tazako was shattered on Sunday, December 7, 1941, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. We all were scared. I never will forget my fifteen year old brother sitting on the front porch of our home, defiantly challenging the unseen enemy, pointing his 22 rifle at the evening sky to protect his family. "Let them come," he snarled, "I'll shoot them out of the sky!"
The three girls did not come to school on Monday after Pearl Harbor was bombed. Our homeroom teacher discussed with the students how embarrassed the girls would be when they returned on Tuesday. She said we should treat them with kindness because they had nothing to do with what happened at Pearl Harbor. It was painful for the girls when they returned to school and most of the students were kind, but a few made their lives miserable. I got into a fist fight with one boy who taunted Tazako, accusing her of being a traitor.
Several weeks went by. Gradually calm returned and the girls settled into their school routines. Our homes now had block warden-approved black-out curtains hanging in their windows. Our town's young men didn't hesitate to enlist in the army and navy. (Later, thousands of young Japanese-American men would enlist in the army's Rainbow Division and be sent to Europe to fight and die for the United States.)
Then, without warning, came President Roosevelt's order to move all ethnic Japanese regardless of whether or not they were American citizens, to "relocation camps" in the mid-west. I was heart-broken when I learned what was to happen to my friends. Frantically, I pestered my mother and father about what could be done. They offered no answers. I thought about the girls insisting their parents abandon their Japanese ways and become real Americans and now the government wanted to send them away. In my twelve-year old mind, I hoped the only president I had ever known would not send the family away if he knew they were good, simple people.
One afternoon I sat down at the dining room table and wrote a letter in despair to President Roosevelt. I described Tazako's family and what good loyal Americans they were and pleaded with FDR to let my friends stay in their home. I walked to the postoffice and mailed my letter to the White House in Washington, D.C. I never received a reply.
Tazako's family was frantic because their nursery could be lost because there was no time to find someone to take over the lease. The family were told they would be allowed to take only what possessions they could carry with them on the train to the camp. What to take? What part of their lives could they leave behind? I cried for my friend as I helped her choose what to take. They packed clothing and family photographs into suitcases and boxes tied with twine. They didn't even know where they were going and no address was known for receiving letters. (Years later, I learned they were afraid to receive letters from friends because of fear they would be censored and the friends might be investigated by the government.) Tazako's family just disappeared one day after the soldiers took them to the train depot to begin their journey to the concentration camps in a mid-western state.
Finally in 1946, after the war was over, the family was released from the camp and they returned to our town. Tazako, Michiko, Umiko and Harry finally were considered American enough to live among us. By that time Tazako and I were in our senior year at High School. The nursery had been gone for a long time, converted into retail stores surrounded by concrete where once beautiful trees and shrubs had grown. The family had no resources to start over again.
I never told Tazako about my letter to the president in 1942---it would have been meaningless. We were older and soon to be graduated from high school, but Tazako's trust was gone. Nothing was the same between us again.
Not much I know how to say about that, BBB. It's a horrible situation and should not have taken place. Thank you for writing it for us.
Re: Memories of a best friend: Japanese internment
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:MEMORIES OF A BEST FRIEND
by BumbleBeeBoogie
The 50th anniversary of President Roosevelt's death brings back painful memories of a terrible time in America when unjustified (and illegal?) actions were taken against Japanese- American citizens in war time hysteria. We need to remember so it never can happen again.
Tazako became my best friend in 1939 when her family, who owned the area's only plant nursery, moved to my town. We both were in the 6th grade. Her father and mother immigrated from Japan in 1936, bringing their three little girls with them to make a new life and to escape the war they knew was coming.
Tazako's father was a shy thin man with gray-streaked black hair. His face was sun-tanned from hours spent out doors transplanting flower seedlings from the green house in the back of the nursery. He spoke little English, but we talked for hours about the flowers and how to grow them. When his English failed, he showed me how to plant seeds, transplant them into larger containers, and prune shrubs and trees to promote their growth.
Tazako's mother, a sweet petite woman, sold plants and cut flowers in a little office tucked away in the corner of the nursery where she taught me how to arrange flowers in the Japanese style. Her English was little better than her husband's. When they were not in school, the three daughters helped her with customer translations.
After school, Tazako and I often walked to the small house the family rented at the rear of the nursery's lot. Although we were from different cultures, we were alike in what eleven year old girls all over the world like to do---play games and talk about boys. I was one of the few caucasians welcomed into their home because they knew I loved their close-knit family and their old-country customs.
Tazako and her two older sisters, who had quickly become fluent English speakers, were impatient with their parent's Japanese old-country ways. It was a time when immigrants believed they had to give up their heritage and assimilate into the American culture. The girls never invited their parents to school functions because they were embarrassed by their poor English. They insisted that English be spoken in their home, which was hard for the parents, and they resisted.
When the birth of their mother's forth child drew near, the three girls, Michiko, Umiko and Tazako, pleaded that the baby, the family's first child to be born in America, be given an American name. When a robust boy was born, he was named Harry.
My close friendship with Tazako was shattered on Sunday, December 7, 1941, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. We all were scared. I never will forget my fifteen year old brother sitting on the front porch of our home, defiantly challenging the unseen enemy, pointing his 22 rifle at the evening sky to protect his family. "Let them come," he snarled, "I'll shoot them out of the sky!"
The three girls did not come to school on Monday after Pearl Harbor was bombed. Our homeroom teacher discussed with the students how embarrassed the girls would be when they returned on Tuesday. She said we should treat them with kindness because they had nothing to do with what happened at Pearl Harbor. It was painful for the girls when they returned to school and most of the students were kind, but a few made their lives miserable. I got into a fist fight with one boy who taunted Tazako, accusing her of being a traitor.
Several weeks went by. Gradually calm returned and the girls settled into their school routines. Our homes now had block warden-approved black-out curtains hanging in their windows. Our town's young men didn't hesitate to enlist in the army and navy. (Later, thousands of young Japanese-American men would enlist in the army's Rainbow Division and be sent to Europe to fight and die for the United States.)
Then, without warning, came President Roosevelt's order to move all ethnic Japanese regardless of whether or not they were American citizens, to "relocation camps" in the mid-west. I was heart-broken when I learned what was to happen to my friends. Frantically, I pestered my mother and father about what could be done. They offered no answers. I thought about the girls insisting their parents abandon their Japanese ways and become real Americans and now the government wanted to send them away. In my twelve-year old mind, I hoped the only president I had ever known would not send the family away if he knew they were good, simple people.
One afternoon I sat down at the dining room table and wrote a letter in despair to President Roosevelt. I described Tazako's family and what good loyal Americans they were and pleaded with FDR to let my friends stay in their home. I walked to the postoffice and mailed my letter to the White House in Washington, D.C. I never received a reply.
Tazako's family was frantic because their nursery could be lost because there was no time to find someone to take over the lease. The family were told they would be allowed to take only what possessions they could carry with them on the train to the camp. What to take? What part of their lives could they leave behind? I cried for my friend as I helped her choose what to take. They packed clothing and family photographs into suitcases and boxes tied with twine. They didn't even know where they were going and no address was known for receiving letters. (Years later, I learned they were afraid to receive letters from friends because of fear they would be censored and the friends might be investigated by the government.) Tazako's family just disappeared one day after the soldiers took them to the train depot to begin their journey to the concentration camps in a mid-western state.
Finally in 1946, after the war was over, the family was released from the camp and they returned to our town. Tazako, Michiko, Umiko and Harry finally were considered American enough to live among us. By that time Tazako and I were in our senior year at High School. The nursery had been gone for a long time, converted into retail stores surrounded by concrete where once beautiful trees and shrubs had grown. The family had no resources to start over again.
I never told Tazako about my letter to the president in 1942---it would have been meaningless. We were older and soon to be graduated from high school, but Tazako's trust was gone. Nothing was the same between us again.
Upon the basis of your experiences
and observations, if it had been up to u,
do u believe that Roosevelt shud have been
impeached and removed from office, BBB ?
David
OmSigDAVID
OmSigDAVID, I don't respond to attention-starved flamers who attempt to disrupt threads.
Flamers are a bore.
BBB
David always makes me laugh!
I like that his writing colour now matches his nail polish.
And his intelligence is outlined in his butchering of the English language!
hingehead wrote:I like that his writing colour now matches his nail polish.
Wow! You are right. I never noticed that. Bet he didn't either. ROTFL
NickFun wrote:And his intelligence is outlined in his butchering of the English language!
Well, he's such a rebel that the constraints of common English-- or spelling-- obviously mean nothing to him! Clearly, he is compelled to post in BOLD RED so that we lesser beings will better understand his weighty pronouncements...
blacksmithn wrote:
Well, he's such a rebel that the constraints of common English-- or spelling-- obviously mean nothing to him! Clearly, he is compelled to post in BOLD RED so that we lesser beings will better understand his weighty pronouncements...
Clearly he was deeply affected by failure at school - his teacher's would put red lines and crosses through everything he wrote - but he's fighting back - by beating them to the punch and making it red, before it's read!
Re: Memories of a best friend: Japanese internment
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Upon the basis of your experiences
and observations, if it had been up to u,
do u believe that Roosevelt shud have been
impeached and removed from office, BBB ?
David
I have no particular knowledge or opinion about DAVID's postings here - one way or the other.. Nor do I have any reason to join in the silly castigations above. However the question he posed, in response to the article BBB posted and her other political commentary, appears to me to be a good one.
It was President Roosevelt who initiated our preparations for war against Japan in the early 1930s; it was he who imposed the embargo on vital exports to Japan; and it was he who authorized the internment of the Japanese Americans on the West Coast. Was all of this a moral outrage, and a violation of the basic tenants of the Constitution? Should he have been impeached?
