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rules for commas...

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2003 10:05 am
The biggest problem is our high school graduates inability to read. The latest government report shows that only 36 percent of high school students are able to read at "challenged" levels. If they are unable to read, how can they possibly use proper English? c.i.
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Wy
 
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Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2003 03:48 pm
Roberta, c.i., I agree with both of you. I am one of the many parents who praise J.K. Rowling (Harry Potter's author) because the H.P. books got my daughter to read happily. She wanted to know "what happens next" faster than I was willing to read them aloud, so she took over and finished them herself.

Now, tho, there's not much that she reads for pleasure. If she doesn't, she won't get better at it. It's a vicious circle...
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Roberta
 
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Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2003 06:04 pm
When the City University of New York began its open admissions policy (after I had stuggled my way in), it had to institute remedial reading classes. In college! In a four-year accredited university! After many years the school administrators are now rethinking their admissions policy.

I started reading when I was very young. Couldn't wait. I don't know if I would have been so eager if tv had existed or if video games had existed or if who knows what else had existed. Reading has a great deal of competition. Don't know what the answer is. But the whole situation is very discouraging. Big time.
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Merry Andrew
 
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Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2003 07:50 pm
Roberta -- I suspect you would have been a reader even if there had been TV around. I was a reader before I ever entered first grade (never went to kindergarten). Why? Because that's what I saw my parents doing and getting great enjoyment out of it. Dad used to read to us aloud sometimes. Then I wanted to finish the book on my own. If a child sees that his parents don't particularly enjoy sitting down with a book, he/she won't pick one up either.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2003 09:12 pm
I agree we have a dilemma to face as fewer and fewer people understand grammar. Grammar is really useful in clarifying thinking. Ergo, thinking is apt to become sloppier as less people are trained in grammar.

Back to apples and oranges and that comma before 'and': I did understand it is optional, Roberta, but I was once taught not to use it. I was mulling over, out loud here, about the problem of apparent changing rules. I do exude relief that I can use a comma there; actually, it makes me grin.

This leads me to another horrible thought. It might be a good thing that people aren't being taught grammar, since it would be worse for people to learn a great deal of incorrect grammar.
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Roberta
 
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Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2003 10:31 pm
Andy, You're right. I would probably have been a reader under any circumstances. My parents were not avid readers, but there always were books in the house. And my father read to me all the time.

Osso, I don't know that rules change so much as they become "relaxed." There may have been a time when the series comma was a hard and fast rule. Not all that long ago, we were taught never to end a sentence with a preposition. This lead to such awkwardness that this rule has been relaxed. It's still better not to end a sentence with a preposition, but it's no longer verboten. The same applies to splitting an infinitive. We were taught not to. Now it's not the end of the world if you do, but it's better if you don't. English is alive. It breathes. It bends and sways. And, yes, I agree that it's better not to learn something than to be taught the wrong thing.
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Merry Andrew
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 09:37 am
As a teacher, I have a right to say the following. Part of the problem lies with teachers. In the lower grades, at least, most teachers tend to emphasize the Rules (mit a capital Har). Perhaps this is how they were taught. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to the rules. You place a comma here or you don't place a comma here. If you do, it's right; if you don't, it's wrong. There is no flexibility, no leeway for logical exceptions to a rule. (btw, I don't teach that way.) It is assumed that a child needs hard and fast rules, no fudging around with "well, it depends." As a result, we come of age with the absurd belief that one should never, under any circumstances, end a sentence with a preposition and that splitting an infinitive is a worse sin that rape or mayhem. Unfortunately, this carries over into adult life for many people, especially those who don't do much writing in their chosen field of endeavor. Professional writers know that there isn't a single rule of grammar which may not be broken at some time with total impunity.
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