Roberta, Thank you. Your example helped. c.i.
Vivien; How about; "It is, however, essential....." or "It is however essential to use commas......"?. c.i.
c.i.
I'd go with "it is, however, essential..." unless there are too many other commas in the sentence, in which case I'd try to re-draft, starting "However, it is essential..."
But then I spend a good percentage of my professional life drafting reports etc. and, given the hourly rates my firm's clients pay for my services, I'm expected to write in a manner which communicates the point in the clearest possible manner, while retaining all the relevant detail.
I can't see using a comma or semicolon in any situation in which diaresis will inject a little irony as well as obviating the need to remember and properly use those annoying rules . . .
kitchenpete, I would also opt with your choice, but the best suggestion I ever received from a boss on writing administrative letters was to write to the dumbest person who needs to understand it. In other words, keep it elementary, dear Watson.
c.i.
Vivien, c.i. and kitchenpete are right. If you don't add the second comma--the one after "however"--you're separating the subject from the verb.
Setanta, I agree. Diaresis (diareses?) and em- and en-dashes are wonderful creations. A bit casual for business stuff, tho...
(FYI: you can get em- and en-dashes by choosing Num Lock, then Alt + 0151 for the em, Alt + 0150 for the en... works in most Windows programs...)
, who were playing with stuffed animals behind... , ") or no commas at all ("craftsman Joe Butler saws..." )... Am I crazy?
Yeeikes! I learned in college a rule that only any commas between the subject and the verb would have to be an even count, not odd.
You are right Wy. Only one comma separates the subject from the verb in your sentence. Very confusing.
I always wondered about that rule though. I mean, what if there was a string of adjectives requiring only one comma to separate them.
"The three girls who were playing with woolen, stuffed animals behind the house decided to go inside."
Rather a good grammar summary (OK, it a UK one) which deals with the use of commas and other matters:
http://www.crazycolour.com/os/elementsofstyle_01.shtml
Wy, You ain't crazy. "Why do people do that, and how can we get them to stop?"
People do that because they don't know any better. We can get them to stop by getting schools to do a better job of teaching grammar and punctuation.
Dupre, The comma in your example isn't separating the subject from the verb. It's separating two adjectives. The rule about the even number of commas applies to phrases or clauses that fall between the subject and the verb. In a sense, these are parenthetical elements--parenthetical to the basic structure of the sentence. And, as with parentheses (and potato chips), you can't have just one.
Hey, Roberta, thanks for clarifying that rule for me. It's been a head-scratcher rambling around in my brain for far too many years now!
Vivien, Nope. "However" doesn't have to be at the beginning of a sentence. Location isn't really an issue. You were just missing the second comma is all.
Dupre, I'm glad I could help.
Wy, You've touched a nerve. A very sensitive nerve. The fact is that when I was in school, not one teacher taught grammar. I guess each thought that another would. I'm more than a little distressed to see the deterioration of writing skills--English skills in general--among younger people. However, the problem is not restricted to students. I edit and proofread books written by teachers and college-educated professionals. It looks to me as though no one taught them English either.
Without a firm grasp of the language, people can't communicate with the clarity and precision that is necessary for understanding. I find the whole situation very disheartening.
Some people suffer from grammar rule change, as I do. When I was smaller, I think that I remember listing apples and oranges with commas after, as in:
Henry loaded his basket with apples, oranges, orangutans, and peaches.
and then, just about my last year in high school, about the same time I learned to spell judgement as judgment, I learned that I must take the comma out after orangutans. All these years I have rebelled in my mind, not want to think of orangutans and peaches as one dish with cream sauce.
And now I gather it is ok to put the comma back, as it makes more sense.
So...what I run into in daily life are statements by artists to our gallery, and I fit them up in our type and try to finesse the grammar without totally annoying the artist. If worse comes to worse, I call the artist, but try not to. Some artists' statements, a few of the many, are literally perfect, except for the little matter of the peaches and pears comma, that last rule we all learned, even though we thought it made no sense.
Virtually all of the great written artist statements, some by artists' with serious degrees, virtuously let off the last apparent place for a comma, and always let orangutans and peaches be a combined dish.
Osso -- in the example you cite, the word 'and' placed between 'orangutans' and 'peaches' takes the place of the comma. The other commas in that sentence -- if you think about it -- are really taking the place of the word 'and'. We use commas because it would be awkward to say 'apples and pears and limes and orangutans and peaches.' The point is that you don't need both a comma and an 'and.' Either/or.
Re: schools - this is the first year I have had to teach basic grammar (parts of speech, parts of a sentence, direct and indirect objects) to 'at-risk' freshmen who had either never seen or gotten it before. In the past, we tried and gave up when it became too time consuming.
This year, I spent about 1/3 of the class time on the above - two of fifteen passed the grammar part of the final. They 'get it' on practice sheets, but they haven't taken the step to full understanding. I don't feel bad, though. Another teacher had zero passing (the 'advanced' students had no problems).
It's so frustrating! I have kids who will not be going to four-year colleges and see no use in learning it. These are kids who hate reading and won't do homework. I know all the arguements for both sides and feel there are more important things for these kids, but....
I also maintain their real education will begin when they are graduated (if they are). This will open a whole new door of debate, but so it goes.
(So much more to say but so little time now)
Osso, Apples, pears, oranges, and bananas. Apples, pears, oranges and bananas. Both are correct. The rules haven't changed. That final comma is optional. Enjoy the freedom to decide for yourself which style you prefer.
Bermbits, I think that people need to learn the rules and structure of their own language in elementary school. I sympathize with your frustration at trying to teach students who don't want to learn, who see no point in learning something they're "not going to need," and who view English as a school subject and not part of their everyday lives.
If you saw the raw manuscript of the textbooks I edit, you would know that some teachers don't want to teach grammar because they don't know it.
What's the answer? Beats the hell out of me.
don't confuse me! It is, however, .... yep ok but actually However should start a sentence shouldn't it?
