When Does Life Begin?

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Completely ignoring what I said about tackling the causes, aren't you?

You're tackling the issue from the wrong end. As a result, you are no more morally right or wrong than the pro-abortionists. So, you wish for women to have to go through the psychological pain of bearing the child of their rapist/batterer/what have you? That the abortion itself isn't psychologically traumatic enough?

Ideally, it should be restricted to before the brain fully develops. The fetus won't feel pain and it would be no more different from a spontaneous abortion.

However, life is not ideal. In certain cases, where the woman is young and where the woman was raped, the woman can have second thoughts about the act of birthing the bastard child of their rapist. And unless the rapist isn't the woman's husband (which is highly likely) that child is a bastard by definition.

All you can do is reduce the need for abortion by ensuring that teenagers don't have unprotected sex, that they know the full proper consequences of every single contraceptive method and that abstinence-only doesn't work as well as the abstinence-only spin-doctors would have you like.

Let me recap. Your wish is for abortion to cease. But historically, making abortion illegal has never stopped abortion from occurring. So why are you arguing against abortion? It's pointless. You aren't going to convince anyone to change their mind. You aren't going to stop abortions from occurring. You're banging your head against a brick wall.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Not ignoring causes at all, but your focus on rape ignores most abortions, which are purely elective and for reasons of convenience http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf , and not the result of rape.

Centuries of families teaching abstinence to their children produced relatively low rates of out of wedlock pregnancy.

For you to try to sweep that aside by claiming 'abstinence doesn't work' is a little more than disingenuous.

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Well, elective abortions. And hm... did I argue for elective abortions at any point in my statements? Did I?

For you to make that claim without backing it up is disingenious.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/short/335/7613/248

The programme is clearly not preventing sex or HIV infection. They're still going at it. If the number of cases of unprotected sex is not affected by the programme, then it's not working in preventing unwanted pregnancies, is it?

And that's all I'll say on this particular matter as well.

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So should elective abortion be illegal, Wolf?

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real life wrote:

So should elective abortion be illegal, Wolf?

No. Just tighten up the rules and increase tax on abortive procedures in order to raise the price of abortion. That should do the trick without forcing the procedures to go underground.

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So you want to enforce 'rules' on who can and cannot have an elective abortion?

How is that different from making it illegal?

And if you are NOT for making it illegal, then you are (despite your earlier denial) arguing for legal elective abortions.

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real, Why don't you get a life? Your arguments about when does life begin is a useless one that doesn't change laws or practice. Abortions will continue irregardless of how you wish to prevent it. So will infanticide. You have no control over it; live with it.

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here we go again... Rolling Eyes

real life wrote:

Very true, Wolf.

We've made theft illegal and folks still do it.

Theft is validated as being illegal because theft has with it a societal consequence. If we could steal, then it would break down our economic structure as well as distribute capitol based on who owns the most weapons/goons. We would no insentive to work.

real life wrote:

Same with kidnapping.

Kidnapping is validated as being illegal because kidnapping has with it a societal consequence. If we could kidnap people, then it would break down our community structure. Bondage is a extersion of power over another person. If kidnapping were legal, the distribution of power would again be set by maliciouos means. Minorities could easily be targeted as having less group power or distinction and then made into targets. Our security would be seriously comprimised.

real life wrote:

And rape.

Rape is validated as being illegal because rape has with it a societal consequence. If we could rape people to fulfill our sexual desires, our security and health would be comprimised.

real life wrote:

Extortion.

Extortion is validated as being illegal because extortion has with it a societal consequence. See theft.

real life wrote:

Fraud.

Fraud is validated as being illegal because fraud has with it a societal consequence. See theft.

real life wrote:

What good has it done us?

You're right.

We've established laws that are targeted to uphold order in our society, balance power, and provide security.

Abortion does not have with it a societal consequence, only a personal consequence, ergo not a issue for a government to make law of. Certainly, a government has the right to regulate it IMO, but to make abortion illegal actaully has with it a societal consequence. To deny that is ignorant.

T
K
O

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I want answers from RL and Baddog1. Why is this so hard for you to answer?

Diest TKO wrote:

This will go on every page until answered.

Diest TKO wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
...Still no responce from the Pro-life crowd about cryostasis for embryos? How many times must I post a question...

BUMP

I'm not letting this one go.

T
K
O

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Deist, They can't answer that question, because it means they must give up their goal to control the woman's body.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

they must give up their goal to control the woman's body.

You support abortion when the baby is a few seconds away from birth and the woman's body will be free of it.

This is just a smokescreen on your part.

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it's not a smoke screen, you have your hands over your eyes. Now answer my question.

T
K
O

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cicerone imposter wrote:

real, Why don't you get a life? Your arguments about when does life begin is a useless one that doesn't change laws or practice. Abortions will continue irregardless of how you wish to prevent it. So will infanticide. You have no control over it; live with it.

Actually that's ok with you, isn't it, because you believe there are too many people on Earth don't you?

How overpopulated is Earth, in your opinion?

How many people should there be?

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Diest TKO wrote:

I want answers from RL and Baddog1. Why is this so hard for you to answer?

Diest TKO wrote:
This will go on every page until answered.

Diest TKO wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
...Still no responce from the Pro-life crowd about cryostasis for embryos? How many times must I post a question...

BUMP

I'm not letting this one go.

T
K
O

Not speaking for RL - however here is my answer as to cryostasis for any life form:

EXPERIMENTAL! Shocked

For one who puts so much emphasis on the need for tangible proof - why would you obsess over an experimental procedure?

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real life wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
real, Why don't you get a life? Your arguments about when does life begin is a useless one that doesn't change laws or practice. Abortions will continue irregardless of how you wish to prevent it. So will infanticide. You have no control over it; live with it.

Actually that's ok with you, isn't it, because you believe there are too many people on Earth don't you?

How overpopulated is Earth, in your opinion?

How many people should there be?

No, real, that's not even close to what I've said. Your imagination runs wild and credit me with things I never said or implied. Like I said, get a life.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

real life wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
real, Why don't you get a life? Your arguments about when does life begin is a useless one that doesn't change laws or practice. Abortions will continue irregardless of how you wish to prevent it. So will infanticide. You have no control over it; live with it.

Actually that's ok with you, isn't it, because you believe there are too many people on Earth don't you?

How overpopulated is Earth, in your opinion?

How many people should there be?

No, real, that's not even close to what I've said. Your imagination runs wild and credit me with things I never said or implied. Like I said, get a life.

Oh, ok sorry.

So you posted this because you DISagreed with it?

from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2536929.html&highlight=overpopulation#2536929

cicerone imposter wrote:

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real life wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
real life wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
real, Why don't you get a life? Your arguments about when does life begin is a useless one that doesn't change laws or practice. Abortions will continue irregardless of how you wish to prevent it. So will infanticide. You have no control over it; live with it.

Actually that's ok with you, isn't it, because you believe there are too many people on Earth don't you?

How overpopulated is Earth, in your opinion?

How many people should there be?

No, real, that's not even close to what I've said. Your imagination runs wild and credit me with things I never said or implied. Like I said, get a life.

Oh, ok sorry.

So you posted this because you DISagreed with it?

from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2536929.html&highlight=overpopulation#2536929

cicerone imposter wrote:

real, You're trying to mix apples and oranges. Doesn't work well when the key issue is "abortion." "Over population" of this planet is another subject. How you are able to combine "abortion" with "over population" doesn't make any sense.

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baddog1 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
I want answers from RL and Baddog1. Why is this so hard for you to answer?

Diest TKO wrote:
This will go on every page until answered.

Diest TKO wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
...Still no responce from the Pro-life crowd about cryostasis for embryos? How many times must I post a question...

BUMP

I'm not letting this one go.

T
K
O

Not speaking for RL - however here is my answer as to cryostasis for any life form:

EXPERIMENTAL!

For one who puts so much emphasis on the need for tangible proof - why would you obsess over an experimental procedure?

So your answer is that you would not support the alternative to the destruction of the embryo. That's hypocritical.

T
K
O

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cicerone imposter wrote:

real life wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
real life wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
real, Why don't you get a life? Your arguments about when does life begin is a useless one that doesn't change laws or practice. Abortions will continue irregardless of how you wish to prevent it. So will infanticide. You have no control over it; live with it.

Actually that's ok with you, isn't it, because you believe there are too many people on Earth don't you?

How overpopulated is Earth, in your opinion?

How many people should there be?

No, real, that's not even close to what I've said. Your imagination runs wild and credit me with things I never said or implied. Like I said, get a life.

Oh, ok sorry.

So you posted this because you DISagreed with it?

from http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post2536929.html&highlight=overpopulation#2536929

cicerone imposter wrote:

real, You're trying to mix apples and oranges. Doesn't work well when the key issue is "abortion." "Over population" of this planet is another subject. How you are able to combine "abortion" with "over population" doesn't make any sense.

The post states that there are 10 times too many people on Earth.

Other than abortion, what are your other plans to bring down the number of people on Earth?

It's clear why abortion, even partial birth abortion such as the killing of a child a few seconds before it is born, doesn't bother you.

You apparently see others as being so much excess baggage. Population control zealots like you tend to view people as being 'in the way'.

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real wrote:
The post states that there are 10 times too many people on Earth.
So? What's your point?

Other than abortion, what are your other plans to bring down the number of people on Earth?
My plans? What makes you think I must have a plan? Because you say so? LOL

It's clear why abortion, even partial birth abortion such as the killing of a child a few seconds before it is born, doesn't bother you.
You are again putting words in my mouth. Stop it, you ignoramous!! I never said such things.

You apparently see others as being so much excess baggage. Population control zealots like you tend to view people as being 'in the way'.
You need to be put into an institution where your imagination would be appreciated.

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Why are you afraid for people to know your views on overpopulation, CI? You posted them because you wanted folks to know, right?

Abortion is one way to kill off some folks, but if you truly believe there are 10x too many people, then what do you think should be done?

As for your support for partial birth abortion, do you deny that you support legalized abortion up to the point of birth? If not, when do you think it should be illegal?

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