When Does Life Begin?

Because you misstate the case and attempt to confound the terms 'pregnancy' and 'life'.

Life begins when the sperm and egg join (conception). The unborn is alive for a period of time before implantation, sometimes several days.

For medical purposes, doctors measure the length of 'pregnancy' based on approximate date of implantation and the date of the woman's last period, etc

Either you don't understand the difference, or you hope that others don't.

It reminds me of the current Missouri amendment #2 that is up for a vote soon.

The pro 2 crowd keeps repeating 'no embryos will be destroyed'.

That is because they mandate the destruction PRIOR to the time when the child is CALLED an 'embryo'.

(It is called a blastocyst at the stage just prior.)

But he is still a living human being.

0 Replies

I think aurell hit it right on the money- people who decide to have an abortion are having it because they're aware that they have produced a life.

But I don't think it's a distinction made based on religion or politics- I think it's based on whether that life is wanted or unwanted.

People who are happily pregnant don't say things like, "My fetus won't be viable outside the womb for twenty three weeks- and until then, I don't consider it a life." They say, from the very moment they find out they're pregnant, "My baby is due ________," and they protect that pregnancy with their life. And this is true whether they're Christian or not, pro-life or pro-choice, have had other children or even a previous abortion.

It's one of those moral distinctions someone was making in another thread. If it's something you desire, you call it one thing. If it's not, it's called something else, but in reality, it's all the same thing.

*I also agree with you about stem cells Aurell - politicians manufacture problems where they don't exist to further their agendas. Sad that it costs so many lives.

0 Replies

real life, Those are belief systems. Nothing slight of hand about the definitions. It's what people believe. Grounded on those beliefs, the conclusion is simply that agreeing pro-life or pro-choice is impossible.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

real life, Those are belief systems. Nothing slight of hand about the definitions. It's what people believe. Grounded on those beliefs, the conclusion is simply that agreeing pro-life or pro-choice is impossible.

It is sleight of hand, and simply saying that people believe it doesn't make it so.

The difference between the pro-life and the pro-abortion position is NOT 'when does pregnancy begin?'

It is : is the unborn a living human being, or not?

That is the only issue that matters.

Do you have ANY medical evidence that the unborn is NOT a living human being?

0 Replies

The unborn is not a "living human being" in legal terms. All other semantics has little value. Most issues concerning the fetus has to do with questions about medical ethics and practice; not legal.

0 Replies

So, if something is legal, then it is right? Case closed?

Little value in discussing anything else?

0 Replies

All these arguments are circular. We know a fetus is alive. We know that someone who wants to have their baby considers the fetus a baby all through the pregnancy. We know that someone with an unwanted pregnancy has the operation, aware that the fetus does not have the development that makes it fully human. It is the woman's choice to make the call what to do. We know the law has always wavered, according to those who serve and interpret it. We also know abortion would not end if the supreme court outlawed the practice.

0 Replies

Edgar wrote:

Quote:

We know that someone with an unwanted pregnancy has the operation, aware that the fetus does not have the development that makes it fully human.

Edgar, I just don't agree with this, and it's because I've talked to a lot of women, friends of mine who have had abortions, as well as young women I've worked with who were in the midst of making the decision, and they all have to deal with the emotional repercussions of whatever decision they come to for years afterward. And they all say that they do know that what they're terminating is human and it's a life. Because, if it's not human, what is it? And that's what always comes back to haunt them. No matter how they've rationalized it at the time, and even if they're able to see after the fact, that yes, they made the right decision for their life at the time, but they still grieve the person that might have been, because medically and in fact, a clump of cells that divides and multiplies is either a tumor or a living, growing being.

Quote:

We know the law has always wavered, according to those who serve and interpret it. We also know abortion would not end if the supreme court outlawed the practice.

This is true. But I'm always reminded of Leonard Cohen's lyrics:
"Destroy another fetus now
We dont like children anyhow
Ive seen the future, baby
It is murder"

So what does it say about us and our society if we condone it?

I know people make mistakes and get in situations they didn't plan. I have no negative or judgemental opinion about any woman who's had an abortion. I have a lot of friends who have, and some who have had more than one. I can see how it might look like the best and sometimes only thing to do for some people in certain situations.

But I think it's important, especially for the women and young girls who find themselves in the situation, to be honest about what is happening, before they make the decision. Because at some point in their lives, usually when they have their first wished for child, the truth always does hit them like a brick wall, and it's sad to see them grapple with something they wish they'd looked at differently or hadn't done.

I'm still pro-choice though - but more pro birth control and pro adoption.

0 Replies

All I'm saying is that I believe in pro-choice, and make no moral judgements of how the woman chooses to terminate her pregnancy - for whatever reason. I have no say whether the fetus continues into birth or not, and certainly have no say or influence in its life. What I do have influence on are for those already living; I donate to second harvest food bank and habitat for humanites. I just know many now living have need for food and shelter. It's none of my business how a woman chooses to keep her pregnancy or terminate it; I believe in each woman's choice.

0 Replies

real life, you really seem to be struggling with understanding my position.

Let me lay it out real clean, like.

CAN a foetus be defined as a human being? YES
CAN a foetus be defined as NOT a human being? YES
CAN a one year old be defined as a human being? YES
CAN a one year old be defined as NOT a human being? YES
CAN a sperm or even a hair be defined as a human being? YES
CAN a sperm or even a hair be defined as NOT a human being? YES

Are there contradictions here? ABSOLUTELY !!!!
Does any of the above matter?...NO !!!!
It's just words...sematics.

What matters to me is the real biological reality, not the words and definitions you want to use to justify your idealistic position. Use whatever words you like, it matters not a bit.

An early, medically safe, legal abortion is better than a late, backyard, illegal abortion every time.

Trying to force women to carry every single conception to term is impossible immoral fascist slavery.

That is my position and it does not change..... no matter how you twist my words.

0 Replies

Quote:

Trying to force women to carry every single conception to term is impossible immoral fascist slavery.

Well said. This is the bottom line as to why I am pro-choice as well.

0 Replies

Eorl wrote:

r
Does any of the above matter?...NO !!!!

This is where your error is.

Either a newborn IS a human being. Or he IS NOT. (You have indicated repeatedly that you believe he IS NOT. Have you changed your view? )

And the answer DOES matter.

Either the unborn IS a human being. Or he IS NOT. (You have indicated repeatedly that you believe he IS NOT. If the answer does NOT matter, then we'll simply ban abortion and it will not bother you, correct?)

The answer DOES matter.

0 Replies

Doktor S wrote:

Quote:

Trying to force women to carry every single conception to term is impossible immoral fascist slavery.

Well said. This is the bottom line as to why I am pro-choice as well.

You, DS, are pro-abortion , not because you support the 'rights' of women , because you have earlier said that they had none.

You don't believe that ANY human has ANY inherent rights. Remember?

You are pro-abortion because you have no logical defense of your position, just political sloganeering.

In short , the pro-abortion position is the path of least resistance. You don't have to think, just a knee jerk reaction.

'If they're afor it, thin ah'm agin it!' -- that's the sum of your position.

0 Replies

Then that is where we shall have to agree to disagree, real life. You need those false dichotomies to fit your black and white world of right and wrong. I do not.