When Does Life Begin?

BTW, RL, I think it's pretty convieniant for you that you don't answer any of my posts. It masks you cowardice well. Well, not that well.

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Eorl wrote:

Personally, I imagine most pro-lifers motives are (what I would call) "good". They are almost certainly "good" from their own perspective. (I imagine it is less common for them to see us (pro-choicers) the same way.) Getting past that error would save a lot a confusion and mistrust on both sides.

Most pro-abortion folks are not bad people. But most are misinformed or ill-informed on the medical status of the unborn.

The pro-abortion leadership has seen to this with incessant lies, semantic tricks and deception.

Phrases like:

'A part of the woman's body'

'Control her own body'

and other similar political slogans are not only false, but demonstrably so.

Also, the adamant refusal to support even modest, common sense restrictions on abortion:

**banning partial birth abortions
**requiring informed consent by abortionists to the mother, (i.e. providing sonograms, listening to the heartbeat, etc) before 'pushing for the sale'
**parental notification and/or consent
**having abortion clinics be required to the same regulatory standards as other surgical centers
**the protection of statutory rapists of underage girls
**banning abortion for sex-selection

has confirmed the pro-abortion movement's radical commitment to abortion on demand at any time.

Fortunately the younger generation is MUCH more pro-life than their parents or grandparents because they grow up looking at sonograms of brothers, sisters and friends in utero, listening to the unborn's heartbeat, etc.

Medical knowledge of what's in the womb is much more widespread and the more people know, the more pro-life they become. It's inevitable.

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real life wrote:

I do not defend the notion that animal behavior is an acceptable standard for human behavior. Do you?

That would depend on the animal's behavior vis-a-vis the human's behavior. My dog has never hurt anyone, but many Christians kill people. Rationalize "god's creatures" cannibalizing each other in utero.

real life wrote:

Such a notion has never been my position, nor the position of any Christian that I know.

So what? Rationalize "god's creatures" cannibalizing each other in utero.

real life wrote:

Where did you get the idea that it was?

Strawman. Rationalize "god's creatures" cannibalizing each other in utero.

real life wrote:

Is the fact that some animals eat their young a good rationale for abortion, in your opinion?

Yes, if you mean do I think modern day Christians are as immoral as the Mayas, Toltec, Aztecs and Incas were. Rationalize "god's creatures" cannibalizing each other in utero.

real life wrote:

What about animals that kill their mates? Acceptable human behavior?

Your Christian god kills all the time, Christian's often endorse killing, Christian's often kill non Christians and Christians alike, so it must be OK for Christians. Rationalize "god's creatures" cannibalizing each other in utero.

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We can all hope Real Life will answer:

.......please let me know your moral absolutist position on feeding my dog less Milk-Bones to stop her farting. Is this a morally good thing or a morally bad thing, and why? On what absolute basis did you make this moral dog fart assessment?

....."How does a moral absolutist justify telling anyone they are wrong about anything?"

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Chumly,

Why should I rationalize for you a statement that I didn't make, and the premise of which I do not support?

Instead of repeatedly badgering by posting the same question, perhaps a discussion would be more fruitful if you addressed what others DO say, instead of what they DON'T say.

I answered your question regarding the moral absolutist (after you never answered mine regarding the relativist)[/b] by pointing out the consistency of my position and the inconsistency of the relativist position.

It seems to have sent you over the edge. Sorry to have rocked your boat.

Perhaps you were attempting to come to CI's aid, as he appeared somewhat flummoxed by the question about how a relativist could claim anyone else's morality was wrong.

But you really haven't done his team any good. You've only added disorganized , disjointed thoughts to the ones he had already posted.

I guess that's inevitable when you hold a position that is self contradictory, though.

That's why all the Relativists can do is punt. They've no defense, nor offense to take them anywhere.

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real talks about "disjointed" as if his opinions are jointed. His "life" is any cell that's alive, but doesn't include the sperm and the egg. Talk about "disjointed," he has no clue. His argument is that a zygote is a baby, but he doesn't do anything for the millions of babies already born and starving. All he wants to do is control the women's choice even though he knows none of them. It's beyond "disjointed," there's no logic or common sense in his pursuit of "saving the zygote."

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real life wrote:

Chumly,

Why should I rationalize for you a statement that I didn't make, and the premise of which I do not support?

If you do not support god's creatures, then you do not support god; after all, god created animals.

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Chumly,

Just because you post some distorted caricature of Christian belief is no reason that I or anyone else should have to defend it.

Again, why don't you reply to something that someone actually says, instead of what they don't say?

You could start with:

How can a moral relativist ever justify telling anybody that they have done wrong? If all morality is subjective, isn't my view of 'right' and 'wrong' just as valid as anyone's?

Would you say that a terrorist does wrong? Or is that simply your opinion that he does wrong?

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real life wrote:

I answered your question regarding the moral absolutist (after you never answered mine regarding the relativist)[/b] by pointing out the consistency of my position and the inconsistency of the relativist position.

Coward. You have answerd no such thing. The inconsistancy of your stance has been pointed out to you over and over again.

Whisper the sound of silence.

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real life wrote:

But you really haven't done his team any good. You've only added disorganized , disjointed thoughts to the ones he had already posted.

Who says there is such a thing as moral?

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Chumly wrote:

real life wrote:
But you really haven't done his team any good. You've only added disorganized , disjointed thoughts to the ones he had already posted.
Who says there is such a thing as moral?

Well, every time you tell someone else that what they have done is 'wrong' , then you are saying there is such.

Have you ever told someone that they did wrong?

Have you ever thought that someone did wrong, but you didn't verbalize it?

Is it wrong for terrorists to kill people, Chumly? (Or are they simply expressing a different 'opinion' than you would express yourself?)

Is it wrong for cannibals to eat people, Chumly? (Or are they simply expressing a different 'opinion' than you would express yourself?)

Same question regarding axe murderers.

Same question regarding rapists.

Same question regarding torturers.

Is there behavior that you would say is 'wrong' or 'evil', or is it all just a matter of opinion?

Ready? Hike!

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Ethical considerations do not automatically infer moral considerations, again I ask "Who says there is such a thing as moral?"

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Poor punt, Chumly. You must be getting tired.

Again, I answered your question, then asked questions which were ignored (punted) by you.

Is it wrong for cannibals to eat people Chumly? Or do they just have a 'different opinion' than others?

Is there ANY behavior that you consider to be 'wrong' in any sense of the word other than that it differs from your own personal opinion?

Ready? Hike!

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You are confusing morals and ethics.

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from http://www.merriamwebster.com/dictionary/ethics

Main Entry: eth·ic
Pronunciation: 'e-thik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek EthikE, from Ethikos
1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a : a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> -- often used in plural but sing. or plural in constr. <an elaborate ethics> <Christian ethics> b plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c : a guiding philosophy d : a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3 plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>

You're splitting hairs, Chumly.

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Morality often evokes religiosity, whereas ethics often does not. I ask "Who says there is such a thing as moral?"

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real life wrote:

You're splitting hairs, Chumly.

Ethics are measurable, morals are not. Morals are about right and wrong and further are emotionally driven, a subjective quality. Ethics are not so simply about right and wrong and must be emotionally sterile, as to say one must be fair and objective.

A judge may want top convict a killer, so he may be inclined to allow evidence in a trial that was obtained illegally. The judge would be driven in opposite directions by morals versus ethics as to some of the desicions that are made.

It's not splitting hairs.

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Diest wrote: Ethics are measurable, morals are not.

That's the nut and bolt definition; spot on!

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Real Life indirectly brings up some interesting questions, as to his claim that I am splitting hairs re: morality and ethics.

1) what is the difference between religious morals and religious ethics?

2) what is the difference between social morals and social ethics?

3) what is the difference between personal morals and personal ethics?

4) what is the difference between legal morals and legal ethics?

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wats all this about exxes?
http://www.atuk.co.uk/england/essex.htm

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When Does Life Begin?

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