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Should kids be taught combat in schools

 
 
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:19 pm
Teaching kids to fight back against classroom invaders
POSTED: 9:42 p.m. EDT, October 13, 2006
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BURLESON, Texas (AP) -- Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth, Texas, school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they've got -- books, pencils, legs and arms.

"Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success," said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools.

That kind of fight-back advice is all but unheard of among schools, and some fear it will get children killed.

But school officials in Burleson said they are drawing on the lessons learned from a string of disasters such as Columbine in 1999 and the Amish schoolhouse attack in Pennsylvania last week.

The school system in this working-class suburb of about 26,000 is believed to be the first in the nation to train all its teachers and students to fight back, Browne said.

At Burleson -- which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students -- the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquets.

Students are also instructed not to comply with a gunman's orders, and to take him down.

Browne recommends students and teachers "react immediately to the sight of a gun by picking up anything and everything and throwing it at the head and body of the attacker and making as much noise as possible. Go toward him as fast as we can and bring them down."

Response Options trains students and teachers to "lock onto the attacker's limbs and use their body weight," Browne said. Everyday classroom objects, such as paperbacks and pencils, can become weapons.

"We show them they can win," he said. "The fact that someone walks into a classroom with a gun does not make them a god. Five or six seventh-grade kids and a 95-pound art teacher can basically challenge, bring down and immobilize a 200-pound man with a gun."

Change in mindset
The fight-back training parallels the change in thinking that has occurred since September 11, 2001, when United Flight 93 made it clear that the usual advice during a hijacking -- Don't try to be a hero, and no one will get hurt -- no longer holds. Flight attendants and passengers are now encouraged to rush the cockpit.

Similarly, women and youngsters are often told by safety experts to kick, scream and claw their way out during a rape attempt or a child-snatching.

In 1998 in Oregon, a 17-year-old high school wrestling star with a bullet in his chest stopped a rampage by tackling a teenager who had opened fire in the cafeteria. The gunman killed two students, as well as his parents, and 22 others were wounded.

Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.

"If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who's to blame," she said. "How much common sense will a student have in a time of panic?"

Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.

"You're telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields," he said. "If my school was teaching that, I'd be upset, frankly."

Some students said they appreciate the training.

"It's harder to hit a moving target than a target that is standing still," said 14-year-old Jessica Justice, who received the training over the summer during freshman orientation at Burleson High.

A better option?
William Lassiter, manager of the North Carolina-based Center for Prevention of School Violence, said past attacks indicate that fighting back, at least by teachers and staff, has its merits.

"At Columbine, teachers told students to get down and get on the floors, and gunmen went around and shot people on the floors," Lassiter said. "I know this sounds chaotic and I know it doesn't sound like a great solution, but it's better than leaving them there to get shot."

Lassiter questioned, however, whether students should be included in the fight-back training: "That's going to scare the you-know-what out of them."

Most of the freshman class at Burleson's high school underwent instruction during orientation, and eventually all Burleson students will receive some training, even the elementary school children.

"We want them to know if Miss Valley says to run out of the room screaming, that is exactly what they need to do," said Jeanie Gilbert, district director of emergency management. She said students and teachers should have "a fighting chance in every situation."

"It's terribly sad that when I get up in the morning that I have to wonder what may happen today either in our area or in the nation," Gilbert said. "Something that happens in Pennsylvania has that ripple effect across the country."

Burleson High Principal Paul Cash said he has received no complaints from parents about the training. Stacy Vaughn, the president of the Parent-Teacher Organization at Norwood Elementary in Burleson, supports the program.

"I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist," Vaughn said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/13/defending.the.classroom.ap/index.html
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:28 pm
Quote:
Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.


I'm with Hilda! But why am I not surprised that this is coming out of
Texas.... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:35 pm
Jane, why in the name of God must you always roll your eyes?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:38 pm
To reinforce my statement, gustav!
0 Replies
 
CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:50 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Quote:
Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.


I'm with Hilda! But why am I not surprised that this is coming out of
Texas.... Rolling Eyes


Do you and Hilda find it anymore troubling when kids are lined up against the wall and shot?
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:53 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
To reinforce my statement, gustav!


Ok. Jane, I would like to hear your voice again. Remember the last time?

Please say something German to me. Something dark and perverse.

Thank you.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:54 pm
Toss something in there that deals with Nazis.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:56 pm
Not in this thread, gustav!!
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:59 pm
CerealKiller wrote:
Do you and Hilda find it anymore troubling when kids are lined up against the wall and shot?


You don't teach children that violence is met with violence. Gun control
is the answer, and nothing else.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 10:04 pm
Ok, Jane. Another thread....another time.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 10:19 pm
I surely agree with CJane on gun control.

I wasn't taught defense stuff - but then I'm sooo old. I can see room for defense training, but I'm not conversant about that. I really don't know. I have qualms about getting small girls into defense, but they might be who most need, say, karate. Or, at least attitude. Still, I've qualms about starting that early. Attitude can be derived in other ways.

I swear, a lot of people including myself could use a seminar or two on how to diffuse situations verbally.

Whatever martial arts programs, if any, are for defense and not aggression, I can see that, somewhat.

On gearing up children, done of course through centuries, for combat, I'd rather not.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 10:25 pm
I see no harm in teaching children useful techniques of self-defense. I do see a problem in encouraging kids to rush an armed adult, however.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 06:50 am
CalamityJane wrote:
Quote:
Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.


I'm with Hilda! But why am I not surprised that this is coming out of
Texas.... Rolling Eyes

Yeah, Jane.
U 'd advise YOUR child to just sit quietly
waiting to be slaughtered, so as not to annoy the murderer; RIGHT ?
( Maybe u 'd encourge the begging and grovelling PEACEFUL approach,
since it was SO SUCCESSFUL at Columbine and the other schools, right ? )

Wild Bill Hickok wud be ASHAMED of u, Jane.
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 06:57 am
Merry Andrew wrote:
I see no harm in teaching children useful techniques of self-defense.
I do see a problem in encouraging kids to rush an armed adult, however.

If he is there to MURDER them,
then thay shud NOT disturb the circumstances
that he expects,
and upon which he depends, according to u ?

However,
I will admit that the students are in an unfair
positiion if thay are unarmed.
Ideally, the school shud qualify them on .38 revolvers
( with hollowpointed slugs )
and thay shud be provided therewith by their parents.
David
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 06:58 am
My turn to roll the eyes Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:00 am
Take your meds, David, and go lie down. You're overexcited this morning. There's a good boy.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:15 am
ossobuco wrote:
I surely agree with CJane on gun control.

I wasn't taught defense stuff - but then I'm sooo old. I can see room for defense training, but I'm not conversant about that. I really don't know. I have qualms about getting small girls into defense, but they might be who most need, say, karate. Or, at least attitude. Still, I've qualms about starting that early.

The concept is to start early enuf
that thay will be ABLE to have a later life
after the murderer has been killed.

Thay can and SHUD drill on taking his flanks.
Possibly train to box his ears,
or a belt can be used as a garrot,
after he is down.

A pencil into a carotid artery
of the neck can put a quick end to the threat;
maybe a sharp knife into a kidney: goodbye !



Quote:

Attitude can be derived in other ways.

I swear, a lot of people including myself could use a seminar or two on
how to diffuse situations verbally.

Maybe tell him a JOKE ??



Quote:

Whatever martial arts programs, if any, are for defense and not aggression, I can see that, somewhat.

On gearing up children, done of course through centuries,
for combat, I'd rather not.

It astonishes me
how willing u are to give up other people 's lives,
rather than have them prepare for defense.


Do u worship a picture of Neville Chamberlain ?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:18 am
Montana wrote:
My turn to roll the eyes Rolling Eyes

U think its BETTER just to bury the kids
and FORGET about self defense.

I DON 'T.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:21 am
Merry Andrew wrote:
Take your meds, David, and go lie down. You're overexcited this morning. There's a good boy.

The cowardice of these pacifists
on this forum is DISGRACEFUL.

Is your motto: " DEATH before courage " ?

David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:30 am
CalamityJane wrote:
CerealKiller wrote:
Do you and Hilda find it anymore troubling when kids are lined up against the wall and shot?


You don't teach children that violence is met with violence.

Gun control
is the answer, and nothing else.

Putting aside the fact that the Supreme Law of the Land
defends every American 's natural right to keep and bear arms,

HOW can gun control possibly be " the answer "
when criminals can and do MAKE their own guns,
EVEN DO IT IN PRISON ??

Guns were made for CENTURIES before
the invention of electric tools; thay r very simple to make.
( I made them myself, during my childhood,
because it was FUN, altho I had commercially manufactured guns. )

Explain THAT to me ?

David
0 Replies
 
 

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