Any serious Christians left?

Arella, this is an example of what has people so on guard about keeping religions out of the legislative process. What are your feelings about what Catherine Harris says about electing Christians or legislating sin?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15490609

Excerpts:

Quote:

If it is, it may be one of very few things that go well for the two-term Republican congresswoman. Once beloved by the Republican leadership for her role in overseeing the 2000 recount that delivered the presidency to George Bush, Harris was snubbed by those old friends before the primary. Republican chieftains, considering her too polarizing to win a statewide race, tried to recruit others, and Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) said publicly that she could not win. Fundraising has been poor. She has come under scrutiny for her role in a bribery scandal. She has caught flak for a series of bizarre statements, including a comment in August: "If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin."
<snip>

After Harris's quote about the importance of electing Christians was published in a Baptist publication, her campaign went into damage control, issuing a press release discussing Harris's love for Israel and explaining that while she was speaking to a Christian audience, she really meant that "people of faith" should be involved in government.

Harris does love talking about Israel. She's proud that Israelis sometimes assume she's one of them and talk to her in Hebrew. She is a Christian but has called herself a "wannabe" Jew. During the bitterly contested recount in 2000, which she oversaw as Florida's secretary of state, she compared herself to the Biblical character Queen Esther, who risked her life to save the Jews.

<snip>

Later in the evening, while talking about her love for Queen Esther, she runs to the passenger seat of her SUV and seizes a Bible.

"I'll give you one verse," she says. "On the day that the enemies of the Jews had hoped to overpower them, the opposite occurred, in that the Jews themselves overpowered those who hated them."

What does that have to do with this race?

"November 7th," she replies.

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Arella Mae wrote:

echi wrote:
And I sincerely appreciate the effort. My post was in response to the article that you said was evidence of gambling-related crime. I'm telling you that the only way this relates to gambling is by the fact that the VICTIMS in this case happen to be in the gambling business.

Why are you in favor of punishing the victim?

Echi, I really feel you are putting words in my mouth here. All I said was that since gambling came to Louisiana the crime rate increased. I said I was sure there were some crimes that had to be related to gambling that were in that increase. I did not say a thing about who the victims were, etc. I painted with a wide brush here and I don't deny that. It was related to gambling and was a crime. That was the basis of my statement.

I am never in favor of punishing victims of a crime Echi.

I am not putting words in your mouth, Arella. What a thoughtless thing to suggest.

You presented information to support your claim, and I refuted it, outright.

You now understand, I assume, the absurdity of calling this an example of "gambling-related crime". That would be equivalent to characterizing the crime committed against little-old-ladies as "little-old-lady-related crime", and then deciding to address the problem by limiting the rights of little-old-ladies.

The only "evidence" you have yet presented that even attempts to support your claim (the Focus On the Family publication) is totally dishonest and illegitimate, focusing on the increase in crime while ignoring the increase in population.

[BTW, I apologize if I seem too agressive. If this were not taking place on a public forum, I would have dropped it a long time ago.]

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JPB wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
... and Shaath himself since has gone on record that Bush said no such thing.
I haven't seen any denials other than from the White House. Do you have a source for that?

timberlandko wrote:

Quote:
"... We felt he was saying that he had a mission, a commitment, his faith in God would inspire him ... rather than a metaphysical whisper in his ear."
Nabil Shaath

He didn't actually say that " Bush said no such thing", only that he didn't take what Bush said literally.

From a much more reliable source we have this.

Quote:

Asked by Woodward, an assistant managing editor at the Washington Post, if he had ever consulted the former president before ordering the invasion of Iraq, Bush replied that "he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength; there is a higher father that I appeal to."

That sort of talk may play well with the far right, but I think it is very unsettling to those of us expecting rationality from our leadership.

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mesquite wrote:
Quote:
Asked by Woodward, an assistant managing editor at the Washington Post, if he had ever consulted the former president before ordering the invasion of Iraq, Bush replied that "he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength; there is a higher father that I appeal to."

That's what I referred to in my earlier post; didn't didn't remember the source. Thanks for 'finding' it.

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and I was getting all huggie and stuff, but then I read the quote in butrflynet's post and now I'm all agitated again.

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All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

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Butrflynet wrote:

Arella, this is an example of what has people so on guard about keeping religions out of the legislative process. What are your feelings about what Catherine Harris says about electing Christians or legislating sin?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15490609

Excerpts:

Quote:
If it is, it may be one of very few things that go well for the two-term Republican congresswoman. Once beloved by the Republican leadership for her role in overseeing the 2000 recount that delivered the presidency to George Bush, Harris was snubbed by those old friends before the primary. Republican chieftains, considering her too polarizing to win a statewide race, tried to recruit others, and Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) said publicly that she could not win. Fundraising has been poor. She has come under scrutiny for her role in a bribery scandal. She has caught flak for a series of bizarre statements, including a comment in August: "If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin."
<snip>

After Harris's quote about the importance of electing Christians was published in a Baptist publication, her campaign went into damage control, issuing a press release discussing Harris's love for Israel and explaining that while she was speaking to a Christian audience, she really meant that "people of faith" should be involved in government.

Harris does love talking about Israel. She's proud that Israelis sometimes assume she's one of them and talk to her in Hebrew. She is a Christian but has called herself a "wannabe" Jew. During the bitterly contested recount in 2000, which she oversaw as Florida's secretary of state, she compared herself to the Biblical character Queen Esther, who risked her life to save the Jews.

<snip>

Later in the evening, while talking about her love for Queen Esther, she runs to the passenger seat of her SUV and seizes a Bible.

"I'll give you one verse," she says. "On the day that the enemies of the Jews had hoped to overpower them, the opposite occurred, in that the Jews themselves overpowered those who hated them."

What does that have to do with this race?

"November 7th," she replies.

Butrflynet,

My problem with this is it seems (to me) that many ascribe all these things to ME. Now, when I post I post about how I feel, believe, etc. I may say that the Bible says or something but I am not saying "all of Christianity" when I state something for me.

Now, in that article that woman says, "If you're not electing Christians, then in essence you are going to legislate sin." Shocked

First of all, that statement to ME, immediately says she thinks Christians don't sin? I don't know if that is what she actually meant or not, but that is how it appears to me.

If that is the way she believes, well, she's just wrong because according to the Bible, "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Christians are supposed to have a certain set of morals and that I can't deny because that is what the Bible tells us. If we would adhere to those morals then certain things wouldn't be going on in this world. I believe the Bible was written for everyone. God's laws apply to all because He is God and He made us all. Now, that is MY belief. I realize that many, and more everyday, do not believe the same way. Many don't know if there is god, believe there is no god, could care less if there is God, etc.

How can anyone say you should or shouldn't be a Christian to be elected into public office? Well, you can say it all you want, but how do you justify it or legislate it? In my opinion, you can't. Yes, it is very important to KNOW about the people that you vote for. They are supposed to be representing YOU so you are going to vote for the person that you believe will carry out your wishes for our country.

Do I think America should be a theocracy? NO! Why? Because you cannot regulate a person's religious beliefs in any way! You cannot regulate their non-religious beliefs either. There are more differences in Christianity as Carter has pills. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find another Christian who believes 100% of the same things that any other Christian believes. I think you would be hard pressed to find a non-Christian who has 100% of the same beliefs as another non-Christian.

Do I wish everyone was a Christian? Sure I do. But I wish that we were all the kind of Christian that God would have us be. And I honestly don't think there are that many on the face of this earth are that kind of Christian. And, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I could not include myself in that statement of being that kind of Christian. I can't include myself because of the fact that I still do things in my life that I know I shouldn't do but do them anyway. I may not run around killing people or any such thing, but in my opinion, one sin is the same as another, so I fall short. I have read many times on this forum from non-Christians that they respect and think the teachings of Jesus are a good thing. So, in that respect, yes, I would like to see us all Christians because if we truly acted like Him, then we'd all be better off (IMHO).

We are all different for different reasons. Nature, nuture, etc. I wouldn't want a Christian in office that would condone going to military funerals and protesting them anymore than I would want a Christian in office that would promote "God hates fags." I wouldn't vote for that type of Christian because I do not believe that type of PERSON is the type of person that would be good for the whole of the United States in a government office. Now, I know non-religious people who would protest military funerals and who also "hate fags" (their words, not mine). I wouldn't want them in public office either!

I have no authority to decide who is and who is not a Christian. A person's salvation is only something they and God know about. The Bible says, "by their fruits you shall know them." That is the extent of my authority here. That phrase "by their fruits" fits everyone in the world as far as I am concerned.

I would vote for a person I know is non-Christian over a professed Christian any day if the non-Christian "showed by their fruits" that they have morals that I identify with. I don't buy into the type of Christianity that will tell you that you will go to hell because you read and enjoyed the Left Behind books anymore than I would buy into the type of Christianity that would allow you to bash someone because they played Ave Maria in a Christian chatroom. Sound silly? You bet. But you want to know something? That exact thing happened to me.

So, I guess that is why I get angry and defensive at times when I am called certain things on this forum for my beliefs. I am not a Christian to the extreme that I tell people "to go to hell" or "you're going to burn in hell for this or that, etc." I tell what the Bible says and explain why I feel it says that and try to leave it at that.

We have a voting process that was established because it was felt the fairest thing and most beneficial thing for our society. We are a democracy and please excuse the expression, God willing, we always will be. I believe in separation of church and state. Perhaps for not the same reasons some of you might but I do agree it is the right thing. I don't want God taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance, but that is MY preference, and if I had to vote whether it was taken out or not I'd vote it stays. But I would never tell another person they are wrong for wanting it out for whatever reason they wanted it out. That is democracy. Democracy is not your vote is only okay as long as it agrees with mine.

There are extremists on this forum just as there are out here in the real world. You have religious and non-religious extremists alike. Everything from "I'd love to rid humanity of religion and its followers" to "hey, let them do whatever they want". That is just the reality of life.

It all boils down to everyone doing what they "believe" is the best thing for them, for others, and/or for society as a whole. What you (general) think is good for society is not necessarily what I think is good for it just as what I think is bad for it may not be what you think is bad for it.

The plain and simple fact is right now, according to the United States, you cannot regulate or legislate anyone's religion or their thought process. The most any of us can do is be aware of what the people running for office stand for and vote for the ones that we think will do the right things by our country.

I love this country. I think it's the best country there is and I am proud to be an American. I am an American by birth and a Christian by choice. Democracy allows me that choice. Laughing

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Democracy allows you that choice, and you want to take away freedoms from those that do not believe as you do. WHAT A COUNTRY!

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Democracy allows you that choice, and you want to take away freedoms from those that do not believe as you do. WHAT A COUNTRY!

If you can't understand what I am saying then that is just fine. I can accept that. But you show me CI, and you know you can't do it, where in the Constitution of the United States does it say 'one MUST or MUST NOT consider "X" when making their decision to vote? Show me where it says that? Show me where it says I don't have that right? You can't. You have the same right. You just do not agree with my views and that is your right.

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Uh oh, the Christians are fighting again.

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You have the right to impose your hatred against people you don't even know; that's your right. That's very "christian" of you.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

You have the right to impose your hatred against people you don't even know; that's your right. That's very "christian" of you.

I take it you can't find anything in the constitution to tell me I am incorrect regarding mine and your rights in this? I knew you couldn't. Funny, but I appear to be the one that is adhering to the constitution of the United States and yet I am accused of trying to take away someone else's rights and spreading hate?????

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/65.gif

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Green Witch wrote:

Uh oh, the Christians are fighting again.

Is it on Pay Per View? Laughing

hehehe

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You asked the question, so I'm assuming you know the answer. No need to respond.

In case you missed it: You have the right to impose your hatred against people you don't even know; that's your right. That's very "christian" of you.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

You asked the question, so I'm assuming you know the answer. No need to respond.

In case you missed it: You have the right to impose your hatred against people you don't even know; that's your right. That's very "christian" of you.

Nice dodge there CI! This is the point. You are telling me I am trying to take away someone else's rights while you are sitting there telling me I don't have the right (berating me for my choice) to exercise my right. Now, hmmm, excuse me if that seems a bit hypocritical CI. But, you are advocating for someone else's rights and speaking against mine? Why? Why should someone else's right trump mine? Or yours? Or anyones? It shouldn't! So, if I am exercising my right as a US citizen then you should also be advocating that I have the right to do that.

That is what I do, CI. You have your right to make your decision to vote for or against anything, BASED ON WHAT YOU PERSONALLY choose to base it on. (Caps for emphasis only). That is your right and I will not tell you that you are incorrect or wrong in doing that. It is your right and I will advocate for that right.

Now, if gambling, same sex marriage, etc., comes up on a ballot then fine. If you don't like something about the law, fine, lobby to change it! I'll support your right to do so. But I will also support the right of anyone to vote for that issue IN ANY WAY THEY CHOOSE!

Democracy! Don't you just love it! Laughing

Get it now?

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You're as blind as a bat; your attempt to take away rights of others is the issue; not your right to vote.

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Arella.

Your rights are not in question. Your beliefs are in question.

You obviously have the right to keep your beliefs all to yourself, but why would you?

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Arella Mae wrote:

Verdant Wiccan wrote:
Uh oh, the Christians are fighting again.

Is it on Pay Per View? hehehe

check out the quotes!!!

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Elvira, Mistress of the Dark wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
... and Shaath himself since has gone on record that Bush said no such thing.
I haven't seen any denials other than from the White House. Do you have a source for that?

[/quote]

Elvira, eh?

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echi wrote:

Arella.

Your rights are not in question. Your beliefs are in question.

You obviously have the right to keep your beliefs all to yourself, but why would you?

I honestly do not understand why the simplicity of this is escaping so many. But I am going to try with YOU this one last time.

I never said this was about my right to vote! It is about my right to vote using whatever decision process I choose in voting on an issue, ANY ISSUE! And as long as you or anyone else tells me I have to vote in a certain way or keep a certain thing in mind, then yes, you are trying to take away my right! Duh? You accuse me of doing what you are, in effect, doing with your words.

I am not giving up my right to vote my conscience for someone else's right, which is exactly what I would be doing if I voted for something I do not agree with, condone, believe in, like or whatever word you would put to it. Everyone's rights are of EQUAL value! EQUAL!

I have not asked anyone on this forum to accept my beliefs. Not once! If you have questions about my faith I do try to answer them. But you cannot deny that some pretty nasty things have been said because of "what I believe in". Now, how does that differ from making derogatory statements about someone's gender? Race? or Sexual Preference? And please don't give me that line about it's because religion is a choice. I don't care to hear it. It's a choice, yes. One I have made.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard that Christians should be locked up, shot, etc. for their beliefs. People think Christianity is dangerous so they want to wipe Christians off the face of the earth. Now, if these statements don't apply to you specifically (or anyone else specifically) then don't take them to heart. But the hypocrisy of the whole thing is those that say these things "believe" it is the right thing to do because others "believe"? Shocked

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Any serious Christians left?

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