How can you not believe in evolution? Also ideas on Genesis

rosborne979 wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
It "may be" because.... Hmmmm... not a definite? Why not?

Because not all bird species behave the same. You would need to ask a specific question to get a specific answer.

hephzibah wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
Ok, I'll give you credit for science being willing to incorporate "new evidence". However.... the problem is science will not take everything as evidence to be considered. It will only take what fit's it's agenda. Just like religion is accused of doing.

Science doesn't have an 'agenda'. Science is just following a methodology within certain limits. It's the only way it can function.

Ok. So who sets the "limits" for science?

I think the scientific method came from the enlightenment period of europe. But I'm not a historian, and haven't looked this up recently, so I don't know specifically.

Science derives from a philosophical basis in naturalism, and it was when naturalistic principles were used to define science that progress began to be made, and science was differentiated from various pseudo-sciences (like astrology and alchemy) and falacies.

hephzibah wrote:
Yes it does answer some why questions. But not all. It only answers the one's it can and dismisses the one's it can't. That's my thought anyway. Doesn't necessarily mean it's right... or wrong...

I wouldn't say it 'dismisses' the ones it can't explain, I would say that it simply doesn't offer answers where it doesn't have any.

Also, science isn't about 'absolute' facts, it's about knowing beyond a reasonable doubt.

For example, evolution is a scientific fact, but it isn't an absolute fact because science can't rule out the possibility that reality is an illusion. We might all be living inside The Matrix, just like in the movies. But science doesn't hedge its bet by saying everything could be an illusion, it just goes ahead and defines reality with the assumption of naturalism. That is the whole reason it can make progress.

Whew... Where to begin here? I think I might be juggling too many conversations here... LOL

wow rosborne I'm impressed. That was a pretty darn good answer. I don't think I can even reply to it at this point. Sheesh... Talk about sucking the air right out of my balloon! I'm cool though... I'm cool... Cool

Doktor S wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
WHY is a bluejay blue?

I highly doubt this question has been wholly dismissed. Color has to do with the way light refracts off a surface. I am pretty sure 'why is <blank> <blank> color' has been universally answered.
Perhaps the problem isn't that science 'dismisses' questions. Perhaps the problem is you dismiss science.

Errrr.... I understand how a bluejay is blue, but I want to know WHY dok. Why has not been answered. Who, what, when, where, and how have been answered, but not WHY.

Perhaps I am the problem here. I do dismiss some things quite easily sometimes. Yet another reason why I'm no longer involved in some aspects of "christianity". However, there are some things I am not willing to dismiss. Some things that I think should be able to be explained, for whatever reason, that aren't. So I ask and it's fun to watch people try to come up with ideas as to the answer. It's fun to try to come up with an answer myself. I don't however dismiss science completely. I'd have to be a complete ignorant fool to do that, because there are some things about science that are quite valid and substantial. However, I still believe that science cannot answer everything, and it takes a measure of faith to believe any theory out there. Not just religion.

rosborne979 wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
WHY is a bluejay blue?

There are many reasons why a bluejay is blue. You need to be more specific.

Pauligirl told you about the chemisty of cardinals. Are you asking about the chemistry of bluejays, or are you asking about the advantage that blueness gives them, or the reason why females select blue jays to mate with?

How can you be more specific than WHY? Why is why. Yes, she told me about the chemistry. What causes it. Not WHY.

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Not all animals, or even birds, follow this design. Male and female chickadee's look very similar, and so do male and female garter snakes. A lot of times the animals life style has something to do with their size and color.

Many of us can't even tell the gender of cows!

When it comes to dogs we usually resort to asking the owner about the animal's gender. There's no immediate giveaway.

Ok Ok... I'll let ya'll win on that one. Cool

hehehe...

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
WHY is a bluejay blue?

The same way a peacock is blue.

Not how... but WHY.

Am I the only one here getting tired of hearing the word why? LOL

Seriously this is so simple. It really is. We are the one's complicating it I think.

0 Replies

If we start talking about the shape of the birds also, we might lose it completely...

0 Replies

LOL you could be right...

0 Replies

hephzibah wrote:

Jason Proudmoore wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
WHY is a bluejay blue?

The same way a peacock is blue.

Not how... but WHY.

Am I the only one here getting tired of hearing the word why? LOL

Seriously this is so simple. It really is. We are the one's complicating it I think.

Ohhhh...ok, I get your question...why a blue jay is blue? A blue Jay is blue because it's not brown, red, black, green, yellow, orange, ect...a blue jay is blue!

0 Replies

Hep, you have lost me and I'm sure you've lost everyone else. I have already provided a reasonable answer as to WHY a Blue Jay is blue...

0 Replies

Another interesting 'why' is why do you want to know? Are you making bluebirds?

0 Replies

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

hephzibah wrote:

Jason Proudmoore wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
WHY is a bluejay blue?

The same way a peacock is blue.

Not how... but WHY.

Am I the only one here getting tired of hearing the word why? LOL

Seriously this is so simple. It really is. We are the one's complicating it I think.

Ohhhh...ok, I get your question...why a blue jay is blue? A blue Jay is blue because it's not brown, red, black, green, yellow, orange, ect...a blue jay is blue!

LOL that's pretty good jason. I gotta hand it to you! Ummm I don't think that is the answer though. I really don't think there is an answer.

Mega, I'm gonna have to get back to you because I'm heading out the door for lunch. I'll check back in, in a few hours though and will address your concern.

Cyracuz, Ummm Hmmm, why do I want to know. Gosh, I don't know why. I just know I do want to know. Curiosity mostly. Perhaps a pinch of overanalyzation thrown in there as well. Cool

No bluebird making here. One is enough for this forum. Twisted Evil

0 Replies

heph wrote:

However, there are some things I am not willing to dismiss. Some things that I think should be able to be explained, for whatever reason, that aren't.

So you think because we can not (yet) answer everything, (although I feel more has been answered than you are willing to accept or are even aware of) that justifies any answer as being plausible?
Would you not rather wait for human science (which translates, directly, to knowledge, and all forms of acquiring it) to honestly answer a question, and rest assured your answer has some measure of veracity and credibility, rather than just accept what you are told, no matter how fantastic or incongruent with known reality, just because others believe it?
There is comfort in knowledge, even false knowledge, and to some the comfort outweighs the value of the knowledge itself.
Perhaps that is what separates my way of thinking from your own.

0 Replies

hephzibah wrote:

Jason Proudmoore wrote:
hephzibah wrote:

Jason Proudmoore wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
WHY is a bluejay blue?

The same way a peacock is blue.

Not how... but WHY.

Am I the only one here getting tired of hearing the word why? LOL

Seriously this is so simple. It really is. We are the one's complicating it I think.

Ohhhh...ok, I get your question...why a blue jay is blue? A blue Jay is blue because it's not brown, red, black, green, yellow, orange, ect...a blue jay is blue!

LOL that's pretty good jason. I gotta hand it to you! Ummm I don't think that is the answer though. I really don't think there is an answer.

Actually...there is an answer:

"Most colors in feathers are determined by their pigments. Other colors like some greens or violets are based on the reflection of light - the prism effect. The colors that are not absorbed are reflected back towards the observer, thus the feather appears to be colored. A jay bird does not actually have blue feathers at all.

The shimmering trick of iridescent coloring is an effect which occurs when light enters a feather and interacts with the cell membranes of some colored regions. The hummingbird´s colorful throat is a well known example of such coloring."

Source: http://www.geocities.com/felicitax/Birds.htm

PS: By the way, what was your final grade in science back in high school?

0 Replies

jason wrote:

Actually...there is an answer:

"Most colors in feathers are determined by their pigments. Other colors like some greens or violets are based on the reflection of light - the prism effect. The colors that are not absorbed are reflected back towards the observer, thus the feather appears to be colored. A jay bird does not actually have blue feathers at all.

The shimmering trick of iridescent coloring is an effect which occurs when light enters a feather and interacts with the cell membranes of some colored regions. The hummingbird´s colorful throat is a well known example of such coloring."

I don't know how many times that has been repeated on this thread. Everyone comes in and digs that up and quotes it Smile

0 Replies

Hold on I'll give you the answer you're looking for....

Blue jay's are blue because that is what God decided to do with blue jays.

Now, if a scientist says that bluejays are blue for XXX reason, you question 'why', as you have done hundreds of times in this thread.

When a priest says that bluejays are blue because 'god wanted it that way' you take it as gospel and refuse to ask why.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe that Christ is your savior?

0 Replies

maporsche, I think you are right. Hep doesn't seem to be asking why things are the way they are. Rather, Hep seems to be asking for the purpose for things being the way they are. It is a bullshit question.

0 Replies

Doktor S wrote:

heph wrote:

However, there are some things I am not willing to dismiss. Some things that I think should be able to be explained, for whatever reason, that aren't.

So you think because we can not (yet) answer everything, (although I feel more has been answered than you are willing to accept or are even aware of) that justifies any answer as being plausible?
Would you not rather wait for human science (which translates, directly, to knowledge, and all forms of acquiring it) to honestly answer a question, and rest assured your answer has some measure of veracity and credibility, rather than just accept what you are told, no matter how fantastic or incongruent with known reality, just because others believe it?
There is comfort in knowledge, even false knowledge, and to some the comfort outweighs the value of the knowledge itself.
Perhaps that is what separates my way of thinking from your own.

*sigh*

Ok first of all let me ask you this... are you implying that some day science will have an answer for everything?

I never said that I think because we can not (yet) answer everything, that justifies any answer as being plausible. You may "feel" more has been answered than I am willing to accept or I am even aware of... but that doesn't make it true. I am perfectly willing to accept real answers. Just don't dance around the bushes with issues and you will be fine. Cool

And furthermore, I am also keenly aware that there is probably a LOT that I'm not quite aware of. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to become aware. Just keep it real man... keep it real... LOL

Dok let me make something clear right here... I don't follow what people say just because they say it. There was a time I did, yes indeed. I'm wearing big girl panties now though and make my own decision. Hehehe... I believe what I believe because that is what I have decided to believe. Not because anyone else said it was right, but because I tested and tried it, researched it, whatever... to come to the conclusion that I have come to concerning any certain thing.

However, I am willing to hear other sides to things. I am willing consider other things because I am not an island unto myself. I am not all knowing, extremely intelligent, schooled, degreed, and whatever else. I just am what I am. I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt that even if they believe something different than me, hey... it works for them. I have no say in what others decide to believe. I can only present what I believe and why and then adjust it as necessary. And if it doesn't need adjusting, well cool. I'll stand my ground and fight for what I believe. *shrugs*

Honestly dok, I don't mean this as an insult but I will tell you right up front what separates our thinking.

You think you are smarter than me. Plain and simple. More often than not you seem to be so sure of your own "rightness" that you are not willing to hear anything other than what you consider to be truth. And you know what? That's ok. Smile

I want to learn, I want to grow, but I don't ever want to become what I think to be "so smart" I could look down my nose at someone else. I think everyone has something to offer. It may not come in the form or package we expect or want, but if we can look beyond that we can learn from each other. I like exploring and finding out new things. Discovering new truths, new ideals. Looking at things from different perspectives, and most of all sharing that experience with other people. It is part of who I am, and I'm proud of it. Cool

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
hephzibah wrote:

Jason Proudmoore wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
WHY is a bluejay blue?

The same way a peacock is blue.

Not how... but WHY.

Am I the only one here getting tired of hearing the word why? LOL

Seriously this is so simple. It really is. We are the one's complicating it I think.

Ohhhh...ok, I get your question...why a blue jay is blue? A blue Jay is blue because it's not brown, red, black, green, yellow, orange, ect...a blue jay is blue!

LOL that's pretty good jason. I gotta hand it to you! Ummm I don't think that is the answer though. I really don't think there is an answer.

Actually...there is an answer:

"Most colors in feathers are determined by their pigments. Other colors like some greens or violets are based on the reflection of light - the prism effect. The colors that are not absorbed are reflected back towards the observer, thus the feather appears to be colored. A jay bird does not actually have blue feathers at all.

The shimmering trick of iridescent coloring is an effect which occurs when light enters a feather and interacts with the cell membranes of some colored regions. The hummingbird´s colorful throat is a well known example of such coloring."

Source: http://www.geocities.com/felicitax/Birds.htm

PS: By the way, what was your final grade in science back in high school?

Well Jason, thanks for your input, but again that answers "how" not "why". As far as my science grade... LOL I can't believe you asked this...

Let's put it this way...

I pulled all A+'s in the things I found interesting....

And all D-'s in the things I found boring...

Which is how it was with every class I had in high school.

Cyracuz wrote:

jason wrote:
Actually...there is an answer:

"Most colors in feathers are determined by their pigments. Other colors like some greens or violets are based on the reflection of light - the prism effect. The colors that are not absorbed are reflected back towards the observer, thus the feather appears to be colored. A jay bird does not actually have blue feathers at all.

The shimmering trick of iridescent coloring is an effect which occurs when light enters a feather and interacts with the cell membranes of some colored regions. The hummingbird´s colorful throat is a well known example of such coloring."

I don't know how many times that has been repeated on this thread. Everyone comes in and digs that up and quotes it

If I'm counting correctly Cyracuz I think this might be the fifth time. LOL It's ok though. We gotta give them credit for taking the time to look this information up, right? Cool

0 Replies

I am one of 'them' in this case heph, so thanks. Smile

But I really cannot imagine what kind of answer you are looking for.

0 Replies

You are one of "THEM"...

Confused

Hehehe... It's all good. I didn't realize you were one of the one's who looked that up and posted it as an answer... Hmmmm...

Ummm I think part of the problem here is I am not looking for a certain kind of answer. I've mulled it all over and over in my head and again, I really don't believe there is an answer to this question. Well, at least one that can be proven by anything. You all can tell me 100 times about how their feathers get their pigment and so forth, and every time I'm going to tell you again that's not the answer, because it's not. I know it's not. Though it was neat to read all that.

It's a matter of why blue instead of a different color. Why is a cardinal red instead of green? Why is any bird the color it is? What is the deciding factor outside of genetics. Kind of like humans, some are white, some are black, some are indian, some are chinese, and so on. Genetics cause the color, right?, but are they responsible for "deciding" the color? What I mean is, ok certain genes decide certain things, but what is it that decides which bird has which genes?

0 Replies

hephzibah wrote:

How can you be more specific than WHY? Why is why. Yes, she told me about the chemistry. What causes it. Not WHY.

Asking why a Bluejay is blue is like asking why a particular branch in a tree is here, and not there.

Jays come in a variety of colors, you just happen to be focused on the ones that are blue. All the Jays branched off from a common ancestor, but they diversified as the populations grew, and certain colors and forms did better than others, eventually dominating the local landscape.

If you were living in Europe you would be asking why Jays are gray.

http://www.antjeschulte.de/img/36434849.7304.jpg

Why is a white dog white?
Why is a black snake black?
Why is a red Ferrari red?

You may ask why they chose to paint it red, or why a black snake might survive/exist where a white one wouldn't, or why a breeder bred a white dog instead of a spotted one, but the question 'why' doesn't apply to the condition of something's existence.

0 Replies

hephzibah wrote:

You are one of "THEM"...

Hehehe... It's all good. I didn't realize you were one of the one's who looked that up and posted it as an answer... Hmmmm...

Ummm I think part of the problem here is I am not looking for a certain kind of answer. I've mulled it all over and over in my head and again, I really don't believe there is an answer to this question. Well, at least one that can be proven by anything. You all can tell me 100 times about how their feathers get their pigment and so forth, and every time I'm going to tell you again that's not the answer, because it's not. I know it's not. Though it was neat to read all that.

It's a matter of why blue instead of a different color. Why is a cardinal red instead of green? Why is any bird the color it is? What is the deciding factor outside of genetics. Kind of like humans, some are white, some are black, some are indian, some are chinese, and so on. Genetics cause the color, right?, but are they responsible for "deciding" the color? What I mean is, ok certain genes decide certain things, but what is it that decides which bird has which genes?

Well, you already know the answer to your question.

God!

Now, if you believe that Christ is your god, then you have to ask him why the blue jay is blue.

You're just trying to argue everyone around in circles by playing the childhood game of "Why", "Why", "Why", "Why". No one is going to give you an answer that you cannot ask "Why" about except your priest. Asking "why" is great, but if you are unwilling to accept any answer except 'god' then what's the point really?

And if you do ultimatley think that this relies to 'god' then please allow me to ask why your specific god, what do you believe to be true about that god, why do you believe that, why, why, why, why, why......

0 Replies

hephzibah wrote:

It's a matter of why blue instead of a different color. Why is a cardinal red instead of green? Why is any bird the color it is? What is the deciding factor outside of genetics. Genetics cause the color, right?, but are they responsible for "deciding" the color? What I mean is, ok certain genes decide certain things, but what is it that decides which bird has which genes?

When you look at the biological world, you are seeing the tips of branches without seeing the tree from which they grew.

Variation (random) within the genetics of a population cause the population to exhibit an ever growing range of differences in its individuals. For simplity sake, think of it like a spectrum of color spreading out slowly exhibiting every color all smoothly connected to each other.

But natural selection blocks certain portions of the growing spectrum as it grows, allowing only certain 'colors' through. Not only that, but the spectrum begins to fade away several generations back. So by the time you look at the result all you see are particular spots of color which are disconnected from the others.

In the case of biology as an analogy to colors, you would also need to realize that each color can start its own spectrum, which in turn becomes fragmented leaving even stranger bits of color.

0 Replies

maporsche wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
You are one of "THEM"...

Hehehe... It's all good. I didn't realize you were one of the one's who looked that up and posted it as an answer... Hmmmm...

Ummm I think part of the problem here is I am not looking for a certain kind of answer. I've mulled it all over and over in my head and again, I really don't believe there is an answer to this question. Well, at least one that can be proven by anything. You all can tell me 100 times about how their feathers get their pigment and so forth, and every time I'm going to tell you again that's not the answer, because it's not. I know it's not. Though it was neat to read all that.

It's a matter of why blue instead of a different color. Why is a cardinal red instead of green? Why is any bird the color it is? What is the deciding factor outside of genetics. Kind of like humans, some are white, some are black, some are indian, some are chinese, and so on. Genetics cause the color, right?, but are they responsible for "deciding" the color? What I mean is, ok certain genes decide certain things, but what is it that decides which bird has which genes?

Well, you already know the answer to your question.

God!

Now, if you believe that Christ is your god, then you have to ask him why the blue jay is blue.

You're just trying to argue everyone around in circles by playing the childhood game of "Why", "Why", "Why", "Why". No one is going to give you an answer that you cannot ask "Why" about except your priest. Asking "why" is great, but if you are unwilling to accept any answer except 'god' then what's the point really?

And if you do ultimatley think that this relies to 'god' then please allow me to ask why your specific god, what do you believe to be true about that god, why do you believe that, why, why, why, why, why......

I was told that science could answer why. That's what started this whole thing actually. And then the one who made the statement disappeared off into the shadows. LOL Go figure...

I honestly have not intentionally tried to run anyone in circles here. However, I can sympathize with how frustrating this whole thing can get. So I'm going to leave it with this. Science can answer how. We all have seen that repeatedly in this conversation. Science cannot answer why. That's the point. It takes a measure of faith to believe anything out there because there is nothing that can answer everything.

Is why important to you personally? Obviously not. And that's ok. But it's still a valid question regardless of if you personally wonder why or not. Part of being human is questioning our existence, where we came from, how we got here, and so on. Everyone turns to different things to explain it to themselves. But life itself really is a mystery. Existence is a mystery. There's no telling why or how some things are. It just is. You accept it or you don't.

I don't hate science. I'm not even trying to disprove science. So Mega, if you read this... regarding what you said. I answered you. I'm not dismissing what you said. I think you made some really good points. However I think the main point got lost somewhere in the middle of all this. So with that I bid you all farewell. Thank you for your participation in this conversation. Very Happy

0 Replies

hephzibah wrote:

Well Jason, thanks for your input, but again that answers "how" not "why". As far as my science grade... LOL I can't believe you asked this...

Waittaminuteas far as I know, this was the question you asked:

hephzibah wrote:

WHY is a bluejay blue?

Can you read that you did ask "why" and not "how" the blue jay is blue? Do you know the difference between the two questions? I gave you an answer to why the color blue on the jaybird[/quote]

hephzibah wrote:

Let's put it this way...

I pulled all A+'s in the things I found interesting....

And all D-'s in the things I found boring...

Which is how it was with every class I had in high school.

Did you even get a final grade at all? I thought that teachers evaluated their students by their overall work through out the school year. So, you got an A+ grade, and when it came to the introduction of evolution you had no idea what they were talking about, and that's why you've got the D-am I right?

0 Replies

How can you not believe in evolution? Also ideas on Genesis

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know