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How can you not believe in evolution? Also ideas on Genesis

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2006 02:25 pm
Scott777ab wrote:

Dogs are dogs, Cats are cats.
Dogs will never become cats, nor cats become dogs without intervention of some power


Of course dogs will never become cats.....what moron would ever say such a thing is possible. Evolution is not "Ape became Man", it is not "Salmon became Elephant".

Are you dumbing down this conversation for your own benefit, or do you truly not know anything about evolution?
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 02:10 pm
Ah that's better! Last time I checked this thread all I'd got was a snarky comment from stuh05. Thanks all.

EpiNirvana,
I'm sorry to say that my only source is the chaplain of which I speak. However, he is a very good source! Very Happy He has two degrees - the first in Physics, the second in theology.

I'm trying to give Christians an alternate view to the very literal one. Try to look at it from a religious point of view and assume that cavemen did know about evolution.

Scott777ab is obviously an uneducated twit and I suggest we all just ignore him. I am tired of people question things which they no nothing about.
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 09:02 pm
Re: How can you not believe in evolution? Also ideas on Gene
aperson wrote:
Moderator feel free to move this to Spirituality and Religion as I accidentally posted it in the wrong forum!


The evidence is so gapingly obviously; I find it hard to even comprehend why some of you don't believe in evolution.

Genesis is not literal for God's sake.

Although I am not religious I used to be not long ago and I can see from the Christian point(s) of view. The chaplain I talked of in "Evolution? How" when I first found this site is not a fool. In fact he is a lot wiser than most atheists I know, and although I don't agree with him in some of his theories, many of them are very valid.

Although it is highly unlikely that he came up with it himself, his idea on Genesis is as follows: the first bit of Genesis is sort of like a song or poem, with "Evening came, and morning came, the first day" being the chorus or refrain. This is also a visible pattern in the first six verses.

Making-------------------------------Filling

Verse 1------------------------------Verse 4
Day and Night-----------------------Sun, moon and stars

Verse 2 ----------------------------- Verse 5
Vault to separate the waters-------Birds and fishes

Verse 3------------------------------Verse 6
Land----------------------------------Land creatures

Now I'm sure this is pretty obvious to most of you but I will explain anyway. In verse 1 God makes the day and night. 3 verses later he fills the day and night with the sun moon and stars. The same applies to the rest. Although "filling" may not be the exact term to use it is undeniable that there is a connection between verses 1, 2 and 3 and their corresponding ones 3 verses afterwards.

Next: Adam and Eve.

(If he exists) God was not, and is not sexist. The translators of the Bible were. Studies have been done to try to more accurately translate the Bible from Hebrew. The original translators weren't very precise as is made obviously by the changing names of God and various characters from verse to verse. Example: in Genesis 1 and 2, God is refered to as simply God. In chapter 3 he is referred to as the Lord God, and in Genesis 4 he is referred to as the Lord.

Anyway, in Hebrew, it pretty much said that God formed a creature from the earth (or mud). Then he split it in two. Woman did not come from man. They were one and were split. Equal. Then it goes on to tell you about how that is why when a man and woman are married they become one (again).

Now this is all he has got up to telling me about, but I will keep you informed as to what he has to say.

Your feedback is appreciated!


It's called "confirmation bias", Aperson.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 07:25 am
Re: How can you not believe in evolution? Also ideas on Gene
aperson wrote:
Moderator feel free to move this to Spirituality and Religion as I accidentally posted it in the wrong forum!


The evidence is so gapingly obviously; I find it hard to even comprehend why some of you don't believe in evolution.

Genesis is not literal for God's sake.

Although I am not religious I used to be not long ago and I can see from the Christian point(s) of view. The chaplain I talked of in "Evolution? How" when I first found this site is not a fool. In fact he is a lot wiser than most atheists I know, and although I don't agree with him in some of his theories, many of them are very valid.

Although it is highly unlikely that he came up with it himself, his idea on Genesis is as follows: the first bit of Genesis is sort of like a song or poem, with "Evening came, and morning came, the first day" being the chorus or refrain. This is also a visible pattern in the first six verses.

Making-------------------------------Filling

Verse 1------------------------------Verse 4
Day and Night-----------------------Sun, moon and stars

Verse 2 ----------------------------- Verse 5
Vault to separate the waters-------Birds and fishes

Verse 3------------------------------Verse 6
Land----------------------------------Land creatures

Now I'm sure this is pretty obvious to most of you but I will explain anyway. In verse 1 God makes the day and night. 3 verses later he fills the day and night with the sun moon and stars. The same applies to the rest. Although "filling" may not be the exact term to use it is undeniable that there is a connection between verses 1, 2 and 3 and their corresponding ones 3 verses afterwards.

Next: Adam and Eve.

(If he exists) God was not, and is not sexist. The translators of the Bible were. Studies have been done to try to more accurately translate the Bible from Hebrew. The original translators weren't very precise as is made obviously by the changing names of God and various characters from verse to verse. Example: in Genesis 1 and 2, God is refered to as simply God. In chapter 3 he is referred to as the Lord God, and in Genesis 4 he is referred to as the Lord.

Anyway, in Hebrew, it pretty much said that God formed a creature from the earth (or mud). Then he split it in two. Woman did not come from man. They were one and were split. Equal. Then it goes on to tell you about how that is why when a man and woman are married they become one (again).

Now this is all he has got up to telling me about, but I will keep you informed as to what he has to say.

Your feedback is appreciated!


It's easy to not believe something that you think is a load of crap. Just ask all the "non-christians" that post here.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahaha! Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 08:01 pm
That's not a very valid comparison Hep. Those that accept evolution as fact do so on mountains of evidence, cross verifiable across many scientific disciplines. Those that accept Christianity as fact do so on not much more than wishful thinking. I don't have a very good bwahaha, so you'll have to settle for a :wink: .
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Oct, 2006 10:53 pm
hehe... look mesquite... I have yet to see this evidence of evolution? Have they found a half monkey half human skull or bones yet? Anything sort of physical evidence that actually links us to those creatures? Oh yeah, I know I've asked this before but I just have to ask it again... if we "evolved" from say... gorilla's why are there still gorilla's? Doesn't "evolving" involve being evolved from one thing to something different? Therefore the original "thing" would no longer exist...

Oh wait... I know! We evolved from dinosaurs!! That's it! That's why they no longer exist!

heh...Twisted Evil

P.S. I wasn't trying to compare anything really. I was just trying to say that when you believe (or decide beforehand) that something is a load of crap... regardless of your reasoning for thinking that... it's easy to not give any credence to it. :wink:
0 Replies
 
megamanXplosion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 01:08 am
Hep, stop thinking of evolution as a chain where one species gradually molds into another species. If the theory of evolution ever tried to say such a thing it would be wrong because the first species would've remained as the only species if that simplistic here-to-here interpretation were correct. Evolution occurs with an ancestor species that typically branches out into several other species, which branch out into other species, and so on. (That is assuming, of course, that each set of species "on a branch" survive and keep branching.)

I will give a short example of how you could visualize the process. The example will not be 100% accurate (there are more "branches" than I will mention here) but for laymen it will work well enough. The first life forms branched out to form the groups we now call Eubacteria, Eukaryotes, and Archaea. The Eukaryotes branched out to green plants (algae at this point of time), Rhodophyta (red algae), Opisthokonts, and the Opisthokonts branches out to form the groups Microsporidia, Fungi, Choanoflaggelates, and Metazoa (animals). The Metazoa branches out to form the groups Porifera (sponges), Cnidaria (jellyfish, corals, and so on), and Bilateria (vertebrates, molluscs, and arthropods). I can keep going but I think you'll see where I was going with this example. If you're interested in a more complete look at how species have branched out, along with the thousands of peices of research to verify that it happened this way, you may find the Tree of Life Web Project interesting.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 02:02 am
hephzibah wrote:
hehe... look mesquite... I have yet to see this evidence of evolution? Have they found a half monkey half human skull or bones yet? Anything sort of physical evidence that actually links us to those creatures? Oh yeah, I know I've asked this before but I just have to ask it again... if we "evolved" from say... gorilla's why are there still gorilla's? Doesn't "evolving" involve being evolved from one thing to something different? Therefore the original "thing" would no longer exist...

Oh wait... I know! We evolved from dinosaurs!! That's it! That's why they no longer exist!

heh...Twisted Evil

P.S. I wasn't trying to compare anything really. I was just trying to say that when you believe (or decide beforehand) that something is a load of crap... regardless of your reasoning for thinking that... it's easy to not give any credence to it. :wink:


Not to poke fun at your ignorance, but how can someone who obviously has little knowledge of what evolution is even claiming to be true, honestly question whether or not evolution is true.

You don't know what the Theory of Evolution states. But you claim that "I have yet to see this evidence of evolution". If you don't know anything about evolution, then how do you know what you're seeing?
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 05:28 am
megamanXplosion wrote:
Hep, stop thinking of evolution as a chain where one species gradually molds into another species. If the theory of evolution ever tried to say such a thing it would be wrong because the first species would've remained as the only species if that simplistic here-to-here interpretation were correct. Evolution occurs with an ancestor species that typically branches out into several other species, which branch out into other species, and so on. (That is assuming, of course, that each set of species "on a branch" survive and keep branching.)

I will give a short example of how you could visualize the process. The example will not be 100% accurate (there are more "branches" than I will mention here) but for laymen it will work well enough. The first life forms branched out to form the groups we now call Eubacteria, Eukaryotes, and Archaea. The Eukaryotes branched out to green plants (algae at this point of time), Rhodophyta (red algae), Opisthokonts, and the Opisthokonts branches out to form the groups Microsporidia, Fungi, Choanoflaggelates, and Metazoa (animals). The Metazoa branches out to form the groups Porifera (sponges), Cnidaria (jellyfish, corals, and so on), and Bilateria (vertebrates, molluscs, and arthropods). I can keep going but I think you'll see where I was going with this example. If you're interested in a more complete look at how species have branched out, along with the thousands of peices of research to verify that it happened this way, you may find the Tree of Life Web Project interesting.


Thanks mega. I appreciate your patience. Smile Errrr there was a time when the theory of evolution said just that. They even had a poster that showed the "process" the gorilla/monkey, whatever went through in order to "become" man. So obviously they've changed their theory. LOL Dang... That was always a show stopping question! I guess I'll have to find a new one... hehehe Just kidding. I'll look at the link when I get a chance though. Thanks.

maporsche wrote:
Not to poke fun at your ignorance, but how can someone who obviously has little knowledge of what evolution is even claiming to be true, honestly question whether or not evolution is true.

You don't know what the Theory of Evolution states. But you claim that "I have yet to see this evidence of evolution". If you don't know anything about evolution, then how do you know what you're seeing?


Now looky here mister, don't you be making fun of this here "little knowledge" I hold of that thar evolution theory. Razz

Seriously... I know I don't have a lot of knowledge about it. *shrugs* I know what I was taught in school though. Obviously THAT'S changed quite a bit in the last 17 to 20 years. However... Of course I can question if it's true or not. It's not one bit different than some of the "non-christians" who question religion having never stepped foot in a church or opened a bible, to actually READ it as something more that a story.

People tend to shape their personal "theory's" based on what other people tell them is right whether anyone wants to admit that or not. But who are we in the ultimate scheme of things? Are we really anything more than a speck of dust... here today gone tomorrow? WHO are we? No matter what theory you believe we are still nothing.

If evolution... well eventually we'll evolve into something else and what we are now will be forgotten.

If religion... well the God that created us will come back, do all the things He said He would, and this life we live now will become non-existent.

So what's the point then? Really...
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 07:48 am
Re: How can you not believe in evolution? Also ideas on Gene
aperson wrote:

Anyway, in Hebrew, it pretty much said that God formed a creature from the earth (or mud). Then he split it in two. Woman did not come from man. They were one and were split. Equal. Then it goes on to tell you about how that is why when a man and woman are married they become one (again).


I really think there is something to this. I remember reading one verse in genesis where it jumped out at me that Adam was both male and female.

Gen 1.27 "God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them"
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 06:28 pm
[quote="hephzibah]
Now looky here mister, don't you be making fun of this here "little knowledge" I hold of that thar evolution theory. Razz

Seriously... I know I don't have a lot of knowledge about it. *shrugs* I know what I was taught in school though. Obviously THAT'S changed quite a bit in the last 17 to 20 years. However... Of course I can question if it's true or not. It's not one bit different than some of the "non-christians" who question religion having never stepped foot in a church or opened a bible, to actually READ it as something more that a story.

People tend to shape their personal "theory's" based on what other people tell them is right whether anyone wants to admit that or not. But who are we in the ultimate scheme of things? Are we really anything more than a speck of dust... here today gone tomorrow? WHO are we? No matter what theory you believe we are still nothing.

If evolution... well eventually we'll evolve into something else and what we are now will be forgotten.

If religion... well the God that created us will come back, do all the things He said He would, and this life we live now will become non-existent.

So what's the point then? Really...[/quote]

I thought one of the main teachings of religion is that you are not a "speck of dust" and that humans are indeed 'special'.

The point has to be to seek the truth and do what's best your yourself.

I think those who have found religion have in their own eyes found the truth.

I think that those who have found atheism have also found what in their eyes is the truth.

I think that the truly cursed ones are agnostics, who aren't closed to either possibility, but they understand that the choice isn't just "god" or "no-god" but "Christian god" or "Jewish god" or "Islamic god" or "no-god" or "other god" or "?" or "?" or "?" or "?", etc.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 01:58 am
Sorry to interupt, but despite the title of this thread, we're more concentrating on the Genesis theme here. Oh, and hephzibah, we have in fact found many "half-human half-monkey" skulls. Thats what neanderthals were, and handymen, and many others. For God's sake, educate yourself, dammit.
0 Replies
 
megamanXplosion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 07:45 am
I don't think Neanderthals were half-human half-monkey in the way that Hep was talking about. In most respects, the Neanderthals were not too different from ourselves. Their body was shorter and huskier, their brain cases were thicker, and their noses were bigger. They were anatomically similar to ourselves except better suited for colder climates. Mentally they were not much different either, they could communicate with symbolism also. To be fair, to call Neanderthals half-human half-monkey is to practically call ourselves half-human half-monkey, unless it is the size of our noses and lighter builds that make us less monkey, but good luck arguing that.

I think a more suitable species would be Australopithecus afarensis:

http://files.myopera.com/megamanXplosion/albums/132277/australopithecus_afarensis_skull.jpg

Reconstruction at the American Museum of Natural Sciences:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Laetoliafar.jpg.jpg
0 Replies
 
rockpie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 07:57 am
if we evolved from monkeys why haven't all monkeys become human? they've had the same amount of time i guess.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 08:03 am
rockpie wrote:
if we evolved from monkeys why haven't all monkeys become human? they've had the same amount of time i guess.


You really need to do some research before you spout off comments such as these. By far, this type of statement shows more that you lack the basic understanding of what evolution is, and therefore cannot argue against it with any amount of respect or reason.

With every post it is becomming more and more clear that you are getting most of your talking points not from honest, thourough investigation, but from your Christian friends and congregation. That's a dangerous game to play.
0 Replies
 
rockpie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 08:09 am
i know that evolution is based on the theory of natural selection, and i agree with it to an extent, but so many facts and figures have us related to so many different types of monkey, so why haven't they all evolved like we supposedly have? and can i get an answer this time, not a judgment on my beliefs.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 08:18 am
rockpie wrote:
i know that evolution is based on the theory of natural selection, and i agree with it to an extent, but so many facts and figures have us related to so many different types of monkey, so why haven't they all evolved like we supposedly have? and can i get an answer this time, not a judgment on my beliefs.


You can find pages of information by googling the term evoluion on the internet.

In a nut shell though, apes and monkeys have evolved just like we have. We all share a common ancestor. Apes/monkeys didn't exist millions of years ago the same way they do today. They branched off from a common ancestor (as did humans) and evolved to where they are today. The reason that we didn't evolve the same way as apes/monkeys is because of natual selection. Our branch of evolution and natual selection caused different was based on different mutations than their branch. Millions of these different mutations (genetically random occurances) created humans on one branch and apes on the other. The different species of apes/monkeys are also different branches of a common ancestor (you'll notice that many of these different species are seperated by region as well, which furthers the proof of natual selection). Google 'Darwin's finches' as well and you'll see the starting point of natual selection.

I find it ironic that you state you beleive in natural selection however. That is not very common among Christians.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 12:01 pm
aperson wrote:
Sorry to interupt, but despite the title of this thread, we're more concentrating on the Genesis theme here. Oh, and hephzibah, we have in fact found many "half-human half-monkey" skulls. Thats what neanderthals were, and handymen, and many others. For God's sake, educate yourself, dammit.


Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 06:24 pm
Even the genesis tells a tale of evolution.

If it didn't it would be a short tale. Something like: "Simsalabim, now get your lazy azz to work!!!", said God.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 06:28 pm
Rolling eyes won't do it, hep.

Michael Behe himself would be embarrassed by your ignorance of evolution. How can you possibly hope to dismiss something about which you understand so little?

If you said "You can't possibly split an atom because no knife could made sharp enough" you'd expect to be laughed at.....but because no church has decreed that nuclear science needs to be undermined, nobody is that silly. The only reason you make such a nonsense statement with such confidence is that an enormous number of people agree with it, and your church encourages it.

If the Roman Catholic Church itself has (eventually, grudgingly) admitted the fact of evolution, how dare you find the idea so ridiculous?
0 Replies
 
 

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