Bad Behavior boy 4 yrs old

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I have 4 children

Two boys 3 months 4 yrs old
Two Girls 7-11 (wifes daughters)

Two girls are fine but i am having alot of problems with my 4 year old son

Let me just start with this has been going on for over 2 year now and i have really come to a complete loss on what other avenues to do

My son hits and screams and wont listen to me or any other authority fiqure (except my wife because she has been consistent)

I have not been so cosistent with rules but i am trying so hard these past several months to be right on track with my wife

We have tried spanking,timeouts,taking toys away, postitive rewards,smiley faces sad faces on calender,pool privelages,going to bed,stand in corner ,talking to him and just about everything else

He has good days 1 or 2 a week but several bad days

Been kicked out of 3 day cares for this behavior

He has been checked out by a phycologist (sp>?) and i was told that he doesnt have add or adhd

He writes his abcs and is fairly smart but wont follow directions and distrupts his classmates

I feel i am about to give up and i know that i cannot do that

Need some good advice any help would be appreciated

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It sounds like you know that consistency is the key. Choose one response to the negative behavior and coordinate with your wife so that the response is the same from both of you. My daughter went through a phase like this when she was three turning four and in response to moving -- which introduced a lot of inconsistency. She wouldn't stay in timeout so we actually had to put her in her room and shut and lock the door. When she was quiet she was allowed out.

The thing about starting to be consistent after some time of not being consistent is that you won't get an immediate sense that it's working. When you don't know if it's working, you're likely to try something else. Stick with it for at least two weeks to see if it works before trying something else.

Also, it seems like he needs to learn appropriate behaviors to replace the bad ones with. Have you tried redirection? Discussing things like, "when I'm angry, I go off by myself until I cool down, or I go for a walk, or whatever".

And above all, make sure he's getting enough sleep and not eating too much sugar.

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Thanks for the response

I am at the point now that he has no toys in his room and have threatend to take trick or treating away he has more sad faces on the calendar then smiles..

I feel that if i let him go trick or treating that it was just an empty threat but i also want him to go and not miss out on it since its just once a year..

Also dont know how long the punishments should last (toys out of his room) if he has one good day i dont want to over reward him with all his toys and books cause he will have one good day then back to being bad again

Really upset about it

Kevin

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I forgot to welcome you to A2K, kev jr. Welcome!

There are a lot of parents here who are better at this than me, and hopefully they'll be along soon.

It sounds like he's in a rut of negative behavior. What would happen if you gave him an opportunity to earn trick-or-treating back? Say three happy faces in a row? Make sure it's something that you know he can do so that he doesn't think it's an unreachable goal. You're probably already doing this with the calendar, but make sure to identify specific positive behaviors and watch for those and jump on every chance to give him a star (or other token reward) for every time you see that. You need him to understand that being good isn't just not being bad. He needs to learn exactly what the desired behaviors are and he needs to know that you will recognize them when he tries them.

As for length of punishment, timeout is usually a minute per year of age. For taking away toys and such, it's probably better to establish the time limit ahead of time, before you take them away.

The more you can plan and get ahead of him and head off bad behavior, the easier it will be to be consistent. If you get into the trap of reactive discipline (spoken by one who has made that mistake) you will never get the desired results.

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thanks for the welcome and much appreciated

Finally after 2 years i thought i would try some parenting forums and much to my suprise stumbled here and now i bookmarked it

so thanks again for any advice from you and others

Kevin

Kev jrs dad :-)

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You are very welcome and I hope you do stick around and let us know how it goes with your son. You will find this is a great forum full of all kinds of experienced parents and teachers who give really good advice.

Good luck!

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Fabulous advice from FreeDuck.

She has said everything I was thinking as I was reading, especially about consistency and how, if things have been inconsistent for so long, you'll have to choose something and stick with it for longer than you might think is necessary before it starts working.

The only thing I can think to add is to give your son a lot of positivity. Hug him, kiss him, tell him how much you love him, spend time with him doing fun things. "Catch him being good..." if it's any little tiny thing that he's doing right or not-wrong, praise it to high heaven. Instead of looking at the bad things and trying to stamp them out, try looking for the good things and try to help them grow and become more common.

Good luck!

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I agree with everything freeduck and sozobe already said. I would add a couple of thoughts. He may have already internalized that he is a "bad boy." That's his self image at this point. You're facing an uphill battle, so hang in there.

There may also be other issues here. Is he on track with developmental milestones? Have you had his doctor evaluate him? You said he's seen a psychologist, but are you sure there are no medical issues? I'd also recommend a second opinion on the pychological evaluation. Psychology is an art. I'd just see if there is agreement between two evaluations.

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Quote:

My son hits and screams and wont listen to me or any other authority fiqure (except my wife because she has been consistent)

If he listens to your wife, can you just copy everything that she does (or doesn't do) until things are on a more even keel?

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This is the end of September. Halloween and Trick or Treating are a month away--this is a long, long time for an unhappy four year old boy.

Your son needs immediate feedback: Immediate punishment. Immediate rewards. He can't count to 31 yet--perhaps he can't even count to four (weeks). A twelve hour day is a long time to work for one smiley face--we're talking about a just-past-toddlerhood boy.

If your wife has control, why is this kid sitting in a barren room? Does the misbehavior start when you come home? Can you give us an example of his out-of-bounds behavior?

Are there any times of day when explosions are likely to occur? Can you structure his day to avoid putting him under stress?

Your post sounds as though an unhappy child is making a family unhappy.

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Boy have I ever been on that boat.

My story is a bit different but the results are quite the same: none of the traditional discipline techniques worked.

A2K member and foster parent Devious Britches told me about the "1-2-3 Magic" system. I bought the books, read up and introduced it in our house and while it didn't cure everything it went a long way towards getting things under control.

It really is worth reading. I won't even try to get into the technique here but what it essential does is to teach your kid to think about and reevaluate what their behavior is and leads to.

I recommend it.

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Noddy24 wrote:

This is the end of September. Halloween and Trick or Treating are a month away--this is a long, long time for an unhappy four year old boy.

Your son needs immediate feedback: Immediate punishment. Immediate rewards. He can't count to 31 yet--perhaps he can't even count to four (weeks). A twelve hour day is a long time to work for one smiley face--we're talking about a just-past-toddlerhood boy.

If your wife has control, why is this kid sitting in a barren room? Does the misbehavior start when you come home? Can you give us an example of his out-of-bounds behavior?

Are there any times of day when explosions are likely to occur? Can you structure his day to avoid putting him under stress?

Your post sounds as though an unhappy child is making a family unhappy.

I agree 12 hours i a long time to get a smiley face

Basically in a nut shell we are having problems with him at his day care (he is in a private home ,excellent care giver ,only 4 kids including my sons) and at home when i get home from work or i am by my self with him

example i dropped him off just this morning fri morning and not more then 20 mins being there he had already pushed a child and would not go into time out he is being the bully picking on other kids he is the oldest in the day care and he knows he is the biggest

If they tell him we will call your mom then he finally listens but if they say call me (dad) no response from him

When i tell him to do something he is always looking for his mom to see if she is watching him if not he tries to get away with everything

Consitencty i know on my part has alot to do with it

my wife and i tell him that he has misbehaved at school and it is wrong to p ush or hit or kick anyone and that he needs to follow directions (ex. who is the boss daddy mommy Ms monica Ms ume)

he knows cause he tells us who is the boss and he knows that he has done wrong and we make him tell us what he did wrong ( i make him say it out loud )
Alot of times he will mumble it and i say to him i cant understand you speak clearly

We make him stand in the corner if he wont follow directions ( that in itself is a struggle for me cause he doesnt want to do it for me but if mom is there he will do it)

He has toys at school and at home but i took them out of his room for the time being
He does color very well (better then my 7 year old) and is up to the letter M in the alpahbet in writing
Its just when i tell him to do something he always looks to see if mom is watching like he is trying to get away with something without mom knowing it

And i also do agree we do need a second opion on a physcologist and for sure go get the
"1-2-3 Magic" system books will look for them sometime this weekend

We are both afraid of what happens next year when he goes to kindergarten ( will they kick him out) our school district has a zero tolerence policy on children we know someone already whose son got kicked out of kindergarten for bad behavior My wife feels like she is the mean one and i am the softee and its hurting her emotionally that she (in his eyes) is the mean parent which really isnt true she is just alot more consitant

Struggling with all this even as i am typing this cause it has gotten this far

Kev

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Sounds like a classic power struggle, kev jr. Ask your local school district or your son's doctor if they know of any parenting classes being offered in your area. I think you and your wife could use some help finding strategies to deal with your willful lad.

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Also, and this may have already been said, be absolutely sure to back each other up. Whatever your wife does, make sure he knows that you agree with it and vice versa.

Hang in there, kev. It's great that you are trying to tackle this before kindergarten.

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And perhaps keep a food diary for him. Freeduck mentioned sugar in her first post. What does he have for breakfast before being dropped off at day care? Two classic food triggers in kids are sugar (or processed white foods which is the same thing as sugar) and red dyes. Is he's having sugary cereals and Hawaiian Punch for breakfast?

Also, I'm a fan of positive reinforcement (which doesn't mean no discipline) mutual respect, and consistency. If you and the day care providers are shouters and Mom is a talker then giving yourself a time out might defuse the hottest moments. Saying something like, "I need to leave the room because I need to calm down." might just get you both through the moment and to a point where you can talk about the action.

When my kids were smaller we would count down for impending blastoffs. If I was angry and ripping them a new one, the oldest would start counting down from 10. The younger one joined in by the time she got to seven. We were all smiling and relaxed by the time they got to one and could discuss whatever it was had set me off. I would do the same for them if they were angry and out of control. The key is to not let the heat of the moment determine your responses. Now that they are older we have a mutual agreement that they are allowed to challenge my tone as much as I am allowed to challenge theirs. A simple 'excuse me' from the person who feels disrespected is usually all it takes.

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Goodmorning Everyone! This is Kevin Jr's wife.
I have been reading all the replies and appreciate everyone's advice. This has been a struggle for us because he is my step son. We have had since he was 20 months old. He has no visitation with his real mother. He only knows me. But since he has been with us and in day care, he has been kicked out of 3. For biting, hitting, kicking, pushing. He is doing better in a home day care because she is more consisitent and able to pay attention to him more.
However my husband is right. He will go to school take a toy he wants, push for no reason, scream when he gets put in time out. He does have good days, but it seems over the past 3 weeks it has been a constant bad behavior no matter what we reward him with. During the time that we have had him with us, I am the one who has been disiplining him and getting the phone calls at work, come and pick him up he can't come back because dad just wants our son to love him. He wants to make up for what happened from when he was born until he came to be with us. He didn't want the responsiblity of punishing him.
I have spent 10 months trying to get him on track with consistency. I feel overwhelmed and basically told him I have had enough. It was going to be up to him to take responsiblity for his son.( and I was pregnant with our first son) And yet because he has had a long day he doesn't want to parent. I am frustrated because he will listen to me. I use the 1-2-3 rules and usually have no problem. If put our son in time out as soon as I leave the room or he thinks I leave the room he is whining, telling his dad he doesn't want to be in time out, gets loud and refuses to listen to dad. He will kick, scream, throw fits, throw himself on the floor, throw things hit his dad etc. When his dad tries to punish. Most of the time I have to step in. Which at this point I have stopped.
My husband thinks I have just given up on him, but that not it. I just can't keep being the 85% parent, getting all the calls, doing all the punishment, taking care of baby, up most of the night. During this past 2 weeks my husbands eyes have been opened to more of what our son is doing, and having to take responsiblity for parenting. As far as Halloween, we are trying to give him something to work for even though it is so far away.. We have tried the have 3 good days you get to go to the water park and yet he can't or won't and has sat out watching everyone. It was one more thing to try. This week he had 1 good day. It's frustrating. You go over the rules every day, make him repeat what he did wrong, put him in time out, and still. He has to watch his sisters play soccer, he doesn't get his toys and I find this frustrating, sad and hard. And we dont' think it's because of the new baby who is almost 4 months old. His behavior has really hit a high note these past 3 weeks. Even hitting and kicking dad. He would never do that with me.
Please offer any advice.

thanks

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Hi there, it's a rare treat to get both parents or both partners in this kind of thing. Welcome to A2K.

kev jr wrote:

Goodmorning Everyone! This is Kevin Jr's wife. I have been reading all the replies and appreciate everyone's advice. This has been a struggle for us because he is my step son. We have had since he was 20 months old. He has no visitation with his real mother. He only knows me.

Boomerang will be a great person for you to talk to, then. I bet she'll have a lot more insight and advice.

I completely understand what you mean about being frustrated re: doing 85% of the parenting. My daughter is usually pretty straightforward, but we moved when she was almost 4, and she started preschool, and she got sick a lot that winter... there were a lot more behavior issues than usual. A lot more active parenting needed, and my husband (who works a ton) tended to react with frustration. It was hard to get through to him that the frustration just escalated things. I can't imagine how much harder it all would've been if we had a baby to deal with on top of everything else <shudder>.

So, it seems like that's something that can be worked on for now, and it sounds like Kev's dad is making progress there. Doing research, finding out how to handle it, that's all good. I have a master's degree in early childhood education and had to wave some of my textbooks under my husband's nose for him to get the message. ;-) He got it, though. And we have Kev's dad right here and can help provide info/ resources (like the 1-2-3 magic stuff). Again, Kev's dad, great that you WANT to do this.

From what's been said, it does seem like the rewards offered may be too far in the future for a 4-year-old. Just developmentally speaking, I'm not sure that they'll be that effective. I wonder if part of why Kev's mom is better able to handle him is that she offers more of the immediate rewards -- hugs, kisses, attention, etc. If so, that's something Kev's dad can try, too. I know that with my husband and daughter, when things were at their roughest he was always retreating, and she felt that keenly and would react -- when he made a conscious effort to demonstrate his love for her (even if he was frustrated at the moment), she calmed down a lot.

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Also, I like Swimpy's suggestion of classes -- it's a good source of info, and also a way to network with other parents who are having a hard time.

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Swimpy wrote:

Sounds like a classic power struggle, kev jr. Ask your local school district or your son's doctor if they know of any parenting classes being offered in your area. I think you and your wife could use some help finding strategies to deal with your willful lad.

I'm just repeating what I said before. It sounds like your family has a lot of issues to work out. Dad is not doing his son any favors by trying to be his buddy. He doesn't need a buddy, he needs a father. I think you are expecting a bit too much from an online forum. Seek a parenting counselor. that's my advice.

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Hello Kev Jr's wife. Welcome to A2K.

I hear your frustration and it's a good thing that your husband is aware of the toll things are taking on you. It seems like the 1-2-3 concept works for you until you get to 3. That's when the punishment kicks in and is the concern I have with the 1-2-3 program.

I'll post parts of an article on power struggles from a Positive Parenting perspective. Although 1-2-3 presents itself as a positive approach, the end result is negative.

Quote:

The First Step is to Side-Step

The first step to effectively and positively deal with power struggles is to side-step the power struggle - in other words, refuse to pick up the other end of the rope. A mother asked her two-year-old if she was ready for a nap. "NO" replied the child. Feeling challenged, the mother replied, "Do you want to walk to your bed or do you want me to carry you?" "I want you to carry me upside down and tickle me as we go."

The mother realized that the "no" was an invitation to join a power struggle and by side-stepping it (neither fighting nor giving in) the mother created an ending that was happy, nurturing and loving rather than hateful and painful as nap time can often be. By side-stepping the power struggle, you send your child the message "I am not going to fight with you. I am not going to hurt you. I am not going to overpower you and I'm not going to give in, either."

Choices, Not Orders

After side-stepping the power struggle, the next step is to give choices, not orders. A father, trying to change an 18-month-olds diaper, against the wishes of the child, offered the child a choice of which room to have the change made. The child choose a room, but once in the room, balked again at the diaper change. The father continued with his plan to empower the child and asked, "Which bed?" The child pointed to a bed, the diaper was changed and the ongoing power struggle about diaper changes was ended.

When giving children choices, parents must be sure that all choices are acceptable. Don't give your child the choice of either sitting down quietly or leaving the restaurant if you have no intention of leaving.

Also be sure you don't give too many "autocratic" choices. Autocratic choices are choices are choices that are so narrow the child senses no freedom at all. Young children benefit from having some choices narrowed, but try to give broad and open-ended choices whenever possible.

Choices should not represent a punishment as one alternative. For example, telling a child "You may either pick up the toys or take a time-out" creates fear and intimidation instead of empowerment.

<snip>

Getting to Win-Win

Power struggles often feel like someone has to win and someone has to lose. A win-win solution is where each party comes away feeling like they got what they wanted. Getting to win-win takes negotiation. Parents can assist their children by responding to a child's demands, "That sounds like a good way for you to win. And I want you to win. But I want to win, too. Can you think of a solution that works for both of us?"

<snip>

Powerlessness Creates Revenge

Children who are overpowered, or who feel powerless, will often seek to gain power through revenge. They will seek to hurt others as they feel hurt and will often engage in behavior that ultimately hurts themselves. Revenge at age two and three looks like talking back and messy food spills. Revenge at age 16 or 17 looks like drug and alcohol abuse, pregnancy, failure, running away and suicide.

When children act out in power struggles and revengeful behavior, they are most often feeling powerless and discouraged about a positive way to contribute and know that their actions count. Most parents' goals are to raise a child who becomes a self-reliant adult, can make good decisions and has the confidence to be whatever he or she chooses. Your child will see the future that future more clearly if you allow him or her to practice at being powerful in useful and appropriate ways.
Source

It takes self discipline to not pick up the rope and is the reason we sometimes need to give ourselves a time out. His behaviors are unacceptable and he needs to understand that, but punishments (in my estimation) only work because you're bigger than he is. When he gets to the daycare he gets to dole out the punishments because he's the biggest of the kids. Many people think that positive parenting results in spoiled, undisciplined children. Nothing is further from the truth. Once you have a clear understanding of what your expectations of behavior are and apply them to everyone in the household, the rest follows behind. You and Kevin are the adults. It's up to the TWO of your to teach your son what is and what isn't acceptable behavior. Modelling those behaviors by not succumbing to his challenges is a good first start.

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Bad Behavior boy 4 yrs old

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