What If Israel Had Never Been Created?

Chiso, if I were a traveller from another planet, I would wonder why these weird-ass humans use religion to draw borders.

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I'm posting this to prove the point i made in my OP --

Quote:

US boosts Israel aid by half a billion - News from Israel

US Congress approves USD 500 million for development of joint defense systems with Israel; projects include development of short-range missile interception system..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3309771,00.html

Folks, please remember: that's half a billion of YOUR TAX DOLLARS.

I wonder how many roads, schools, and hospitals these funds could have repaired or built.

But remember, folks: you're not important - you don't matter to Washington other than as a taxpayer ID number, no matter what either party says.

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chiso wrote:

...We're talking "State Sponsored". Please provide an example..

Quote:

Israel guilty of collective punishment in Gaza: UN envoy

Press Trust of India

Geneva, September 30, 2006

Israel is guilty of "collective punishment" of the Palestinian people through its military actions in the Gaza Strip, a United Nations human rights official said on Friday.

"Israeli action has failed to discriminate between militants and civilians. In summary, its action in Gaza constitutes collective punishment of the Palestinian people," John Dugard said...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1809714,00050003.htm

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chiso wrote:

What people mean when they say 'there are no Palestinians' is that, at the time Israel was declared a state in 1948, there was 'no Palestinian state'. The area that is now called Israel was parts of Transjordan, Egypt, etc, etc, whatever, whatever. There was not, at that time, a state or country called Palestine.

Israel was created entirely within the Palestine Mandate, no part of the Transjordan Mandate and no part of Egypt was included in that state, nor was there any "etc., etc." in the excercize. The boundaries of the state of Israel was created completely from territory in what was formerly the Palestine Mandate, and was created pursuant to the terms of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181.

As i've already pointed out, Israel has not honored the terms of G.A.R. 181, and even if one stipulates that they were immediately attacked and further alleges that they were therefore unable to implement those terms, they are no in a position to do so, and they don't. They might have made a good faith effort in 1948, even after having been attacked, but they didn't. As i've also already pointed out, Israel is at least as responsible as anyone else for the current situation, and there is more than enough "blame" to go around.

Freeduck is correct, the "blame game" won't solve anything. Making **** up about the historical record is only useful to those who are interested in propagandizing the "blame game" and not in finding solutions.

Texas was annexed by the United States and not taken in war. It is pretty damned dimwitted to attempt to construct an analogy from that. If you want to make a good argument, by all means do--but when you make **** up about history and who did what to whom and when, you show yourself to be a propagandist with an agenda as opposed to someone who wishes to explore the issues to determine how this situation arose, and to offer solutions. I've seen no one here offer solutions, and that includes me--but Miss Duck has pointed out that the effort needs to be made, and that the effort is not forwarded by trading propaganda about who's to blame.

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Setanta wrote:

chiso wrote:
What people mean when they say 'there are no Palestinians' is that, at the time Israel was declared a state in 1948, there was 'no Palestinian state'. The area that is now called Israel was parts of Transjordan, Egypt, etc, etc, whatever, whatever. There was not, at that time, a state or country called Palestine.

Israel was created entirely within the Palestine Mandate, no part of the Transjordan Mandate and no part of Egypt was included in that state, nor was there any "etc., etc." in the excercize. The boundaries of the state of Israel was created completely from territory in what was formerly the Palestine Mandate, and was created pursuant to the terms of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181.

Been waiting for someone to say that. According to the way you have decided to classify a 'Palestinian', everyone in the state of Jordan is a Palestinian, so they have already been granted a state, it's called Jordan.

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No, that's horseshit. The Transjordan Mandate was separate from the Palestine Mandate, and G.A. Resolution 181 does not refer to any portion or, nor any of the population of the Transjordan.

Just keep making up stories, though, i know it's important to forwarding the "Muslims are all savage barbarians and Israel can do no wrong" propaganda.

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Setanta wrote:

No, that's horseshit. The Transjordan Mandate was separate from the Palestine Mandate, and G.A. Resolution 181 does not refer to any portion or, nor any of the population of the Transjordan.

Just keep making up stories, though, i know it's important to forwarding the "Muslims are all savage barbarians and Israel can do no wrong" propaganda.

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/newpdf/Pal-under-BritishMandate192.gif

Next you're going to spread that story about how the US doesn't pay the highest individual percent of UN dues.
Have a great weekend! I'm sure someone is willing to listen to you.

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chiso wrote:

Yeah, Benny Morris isn't the only "Revisionist Historian". He and the other "New Historians" can't even agree on this "Revised History" they're writing (revising) 40 to 60 years later.

Their arguments tend to center around their conclusions, not the facts they've uncovered about the ethnic cleansing that was carried out by the Zionists in the '48 war.

Quote:

We're talking "State Sponsored". Please provide an example.

...of state sponsored racism.

It is more generally ethnocentrism, which can have features of racism, but not necessarily, and early in the development of Zionist ideology Jewish nationalism was treated in racial terms, e.g. "the Jewish race." The creation and existence of the state of Israel itself is an example of ethnocentrism. The state was created of, by, and for Jews at the expense of the goyim living in Palestine. Jewish ethnocentrism is written directly into Israel's Basic Law, it's by-laws, in 7A[1] of the Basic Law of the Knesset, a candidate cannot run for a seat in its senate if he negates the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people.

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Oh yeah, post material from PASSIA, an organization funded by the United States Agency for International Development (US AID), the American Embassy in Israel, and the Jerusalem branch of the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung.

Next time, try to either find an unbaised source, or a source which actually is Palestinian, instead of a pseudo-Palestinian front organization.

[url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html][b]The Jewish Virtual Library 'Myths and Facts' Page[/b][/url] wrote:

As a consolation prize for the Hejaz and Arabia (which are both now Saudi Arabia) going to the Saud family, Churchill rewarded Sherif Hussein's son Abdullah for his contribution to the war against Turkey by installing him as Transjordan's emir. (emphasis added)

The Transjordan was a separate mandate, which was separately administered by the English. The source which i linked, the Jewish Virtual Library, can hardly be said to be a shill for Palestinian propaganda. I'll take their word in this matter, as well as that of the King Hussein-dot-gov page on the history of Jordan:

Quote:

Although the Sykes-Picot Agreement was modified considerably in practice, it established a framework for the mandate system which was imposed in the years following the war. Near the end of 1918, the Hashemite Emir Faisal set up an independent government in Damascus. However, his demand at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference for independence throughout the Arab world was met with rejection from the colonial powers. In 1920 and for a brief duration, Faisal assumed the throne of Syria and his elder brother Abdullah was offered the crown of Iraq by the Iraqi representatives. However, the British government ignored the will of the Iraqi people. Shortly afterward, the newly-founded League of Nations awarded Britain the mandates over Transjordan, Palestine and Iraq. France was given the mandate over Syria and Lebanon, but had to take Damascus by force, removing King Faisal from the throne to which he had been elected by the General Syrian Congress in 1920. (emphasis added)

Later, in the same article:

Faced with the determination of Emir Abdullah to unify Arab lands under the Hashemite banner, the British proclaimed Abdullah ruler of the three districts, known collectively as Transjordan.

Using what passes for logic at your house, Iraq was a part of Palestine, as well. People who have actually studied the history of the region, as opposed to looking for propaganda to support a point of view decided upon in advance, know that the Transjordan was a mandate separately administered by the English. Even your silly map shows them as being distinct.

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The idea that "Israel is part of the enlightened, civilized and liberal Western-world" sounds like the arguments of the South African whites under apartheid, when they were treating the indigenous population with a brutality, racism and lack of humanity that resembles greatly the current situation in the Occupied Territories.

Second Class: Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools

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I can't sit here and get in a posting competition when this whole thread is a total crock.

Zippo, you should learn something about HRW before posting any material from there. Headed by Kenneth Roth, Joe Stork who was one of the members of MERIP which openly called for the destruction of Israel, Gary Sick, Sarah Whitson, etc. That report means nothing.

Setanto, you wrote as if you disagreed that Transjordan was initially called Palestine, but then provided better information than I did confirming that it was. That was funny.

What If Israel Had Never Been Created?

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