We know it's Palestinian, but where's the Authority?

Well, if Israel didn't do their best to destroy the PA and undermine its leaders they would have more authority.

Why do we talk to them? Because they are all the Palestinians have and we don't want to listen to the fools who would have us simply cater to one side and ignore that they do their best to destroy the other.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Why do we talk to them? Because they are all the Palestinians have and we don't want to listen to the fools who would have us simply cater to one side and ignore that they do their best to destroy the other.

Precisely my point Craven. Precisely.I'm still waiting for the Palestinians to openly declare Israel's right to exist. After all, thats what Oslo DEMANDED. Unfortunately, as long as Arafat's symbol is the entire state of Israel, that will never happen. To me at least. Last I checked, Israel recognized the PA, an entity who's CONSTITUTION STILL CALLS FOR THE DOWNFALL of Israel, years upon years after Oslo.

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Scipio,

They have declared that already. Please feel free to stop waiting.

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Read what I said my friend. Their constitution still calls for the death of Israelis and the downfall of Israel. They national Emblems still cry for ALL of Israel. Declaring you're going to do something is one thing, but doing it is another, especially if you promised you'd do it after Oslo. Feel free to join me in waiting.

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Scipio

What consititution? And both sides regularly use greater Isreal or "Greater Palestine" in symbols. I wish both would stop.

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You're right. Bah, I forget the word.... I think the word might be Charter. Yes, I think so, argh, its frustrating when you can't think of a word, eh? But, please look at memri.org and see if you can find the arab translation of their charter. Shocking stuff.

Secondly, as of the moment, the land is in Israeli hands. They have much more of a right to use that land in their symbols I'd say. And most of their symbols are Menoras, anyway. Sub-secondly, a "PC" map is would be so hard to draw and impliment, why even bother? Boy, I can't wait till this is over and there's finally peace.

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Huh? When Arabs do it they are wrong but when Israelis do it they are just not "PC"???

Sigh

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Bah! I couldn't resist.

The land is still legally under Israeli control, you know. It would be exactly like a Mexican wearing California all pver his body to show that they want it back.

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Legally? By what law? Thing is, I can think of ways that it is both legal (self defense) and illegal (occuping armies have responsibilities, territories are being disputed by both sides).

I'd not go so far as to say the comparison with California is a just one.

California is part of sovereign territory. Despite the moral issues in its aquisition it has been accepted as sovereign US territory.

The territories in dispute in the mideast are not in the same boat. Not even Jerusalem is recognized as the Israeli capital by the US, Israel's best friend.

Apples and oranges.

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Scipio

To what constitution/Charta are you referring exactly?

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Seriously bad analogy Scipico. It would be Texas, not California!!

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Unless and until the Palestinians can control their radical elements there can be no settlement in the middle east. The radical elements of the Palestinians will make every effort to destroy the peace process.
Craven
I am reminded of what Bush said about terrorists. Something to the effect if the nation they are hiding in cannot root them out we will. Is that not what Israel has been forced to do? In doing so they have thwarted many potential terrorist attacks. The best defense is a good offense.
I know you took issue with this the last time I said it but IMO the ball is on the Palestinians court now more than ever.

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au,

I am very close to predicting that this peace process will colapse and that the aim is to villify the Palestinians by saying they missed another chance.

While it might be true things are not that simple. I do not think Israel is an innocent party that is simply "rooting our terror". I think that many times they go out of their way to incite it (e.g. "targeted killings when there is a lull in terror). I see extremists on their side just as unwilling to settle and make peace as Palestinian terrorists.

I see the desire to place as much of the ball in the Palestinian hands as possible and worry that that distinction is the goal for some.

To put this very simply Israel did their best to detroy the Palestinian authority and now they seek to blame the Palestinians if the PA can't reign in the militants.

Israel's actions while "policing terror" were not limited to activities to quash terror. Much of it was directed at destroying Palestinian infrastructure by destroying police stations and other government buildings.

Much of their political energy was spent trying to render irrelevant the only leader the Palestinians respect and jailing the second most respected.

Now after undermining the PA in the most obvious way possible (detroy their facilities and remove their leader) we have a situation in which an unpopular Palestinian leader is supposed to fight terror after Israel has finished destroying the tools available to him.

I understand some of the Israeli incursions but otehrs were simply motivated out of revenge and were positively counterproductive.

Israel further complicates the issue by trying to force what the new leader considers to be a civil war onto the Palestinians. Abu wants to negotiate a settlement with his militants before he has to crack down on those that do not make a truce and right at the most critical junctures I see Israel doing things that do not help.

No, I do not think it's fair to say "the ball is in Palestinian hands". I think that is disingenuous and belive the peace process' success is largely contingent on the inability to paint this as a Palestinian choice.

I focused on Israeli errors in the above post only because you like to think that everything is up to the Palestinians and you paint Israel as an innocent spectator.

Palestinians make plenty of mistakes, but to act like they control their destiny is to pretend that there is only one person in the tango.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

While it might be true things are not that simple. I do not think Israel is an innocent party that is simply "rooting our terror". I think that many times they go out of their way to incite it (e.g. "targeted killings when there is a lull in terror). I see extremists on their side just as unwilling to settle and make peace as Palestinian terrorists.

Should Israel end its justice just because they haven't gotten blown to bits? Ok, that makes sense.

Quote:

I am very close to predicting that this peace process will colapse and that the aim is to villify the Palestinians by saying they missed another chance.

If it does end, its not because of the Israelis. Remember the last leader to make a breakthrough peace with the Israelis? Nassar? he got assasinated. So will any Palestinian who makes a real peace with the Israelis.

Quote:

To put this very simply Israel did their best to detroy the Palestinian authority and now they seek to blame the Palestinians if the PA can't reign in the militants.

Of course they did! Before Oslo the PA was a Terrorist Group! Black September? Anyone? Of course Israel wanted to destroy a terrorist group!

Quote:

Israel's actions while "policing terror" were not limited to activities to quash terror. Much of it was directed at destroying Palestinian infrastructure by destroying police stations and other government buildings.

Much of their political energy was spent trying to render irrelevant the only leader the Palestinians respect and jailing the second most respected.

Now after undermining the PA in the most obvious way possible (detroy their facilities and remove their leader) we have a situation in which an unpopular Palestinian leader is supposed to fight terror after Israel has finished destroying the tools available to him.

The Palestinians don't destroy terror! The money that was supposed to go for schooling goes towards Jihad Camps. Their public TV shows have Sesame Street type shows. But instead of Big Bird and counting songs, you have Jew Monster, and a song called for Jihad. It would be one thing if they were trying to fight terror. _They_aren't_. And are you accusing the Israelis of undermining peace? Have you any idea what it is like to be an Israeli? Do you know the nightmare it ia to be an Israeli?

Quote:

Palestinians make plenty of mistakes, but to act like they control their destiny is to pretend that there is only one person in the tango.

All I can say is that the ball is in Palestinian hands now. As it should be, after all, they could have had a state by now. On two different occations. In 1948, but they got jealous. A couple years ago, but Arafat knew that if he took the 97% of what they were asking for, he'd either be dead, or have the responsibility of statehood.

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Just bear in mind the methods used by each side to do what it does.

Israel uses it's military to strike at suspected terror organizations and usually limits civilian casualties to a minimum.

Palestinian terror organization use individuals disguised as civilians to blow themselves up taking as many other civilians as they can with them.

The P.A. has been useless in reducing these attacks which is why Israel has banished Yassir to his HQ. Unless the Palestinians rise up against the terror organizations, which it is starting to look like they might, there will never be peace.

My 2 cents.

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Israel has taken the first steps

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Munch wrote:

Should Israel end its justice just because they haven't gotten blown to bits? Ok, that makes sense.

I said nothing of the sort.

Munch wrote:

If it does end, its not because of the Israelis. Remember the last leader to make a breakthrough peace with the Israelis? Nassar? he got assasinated. So will any Palestinian who makes a real peace with the Israelis.

We shall see. I do not claim to know exaclty what will happen and your prediction that the peace process will be terminated by assasination is quite specific.

Munch wrote:

Of course they did! Before Oslo the PA was a Terrorist Group! Black September? Anyone? Of course Israel wanted to destroy a terrorist group!

I understand Israel's motivation but it also translates into more difficulty in getting the Palestinain Authority the power it needs to crack down on the militants.

Munch wrote:

The Palestinians don't destroy terror! The money that was supposed to go for schooling goes towards Jihad Camps.

I know this happens, but this claim is greatly exaggerated. Do you have substantiation? Dollar amounts? Or are you reapeating what we all already know which is that money destined for charitable purposes has made its way to terrorists?

The fact that the terrorist groups are also involved in schools and hospitals is relevant. This is one reason money earmarked for noble purposed has , in the past, been used for murder.

Munch wrote:

Their public TV shows have Sesame Street type shows. But instead of Big Bird and counting songs, you have Jew Monster, and a song called for Jihad. It would be one thing if they were trying to fight terror. _They_aren't_. And are you accusing the Israelis of undermining peace?

I am well aware of the incitement in schools and religious institutions. The Palestinians need to cut off the incitement at the source.

As to the Israelis they have a few elements of their school system that I disagree with. Namely showing greater Isreal in their maps while using the excuse that the borders are not yet defined.

The Palestinian schools also have some shoddy mapwork and use the same excuse. They have used maps that did not show the state of Israel and their excuse is that they did not know where Isreal wanted to draw her borders.

I find both sides to be pathetic but am willing to grant thatthe Palestinians are far worse in this regard.

As to your last question, yes I am accusing an element of Israeli society of undermining peace. Sharon was booed recently by his own party because of his tentative acceptance of the roadmap.

Several Israeli groups (the religious right and settlers) have rejected the peace plan.

There are idiots on both sides who seek to undermine peace for their territorial goals.

Munch wrote:

All I can say is that the ball is in Palestinian hands now. As it should be, after all, they could have had a state by now. On two different occations. In 1948, but they got jealous. A couple years ago, but Arafat knew that if he took the 97% of what they were asking for, he'd either be dead, or have the responsibility of statehood.

I disagree categorically. I think Isreal has far more leverage and power and that this translates into more ability on their part to forward the peace process. It is, in my opinion, not just false but disingenuous to try to say "the ball is in their court".

Isreal has had to be prodded and pressured as well. Seeking to portray Israel as eager and willing and the Palestinians unwilling is not the whole picture.

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McGentrix wrote:

Israel uses it's military to strike at suspected terror organizations and usually limits civilian casualties to a minimum.

I have great respect for Israeli military capability and yes, they, for the most part, do a stand up job of avoiding collateral damage.

My qualms with Israeli military actions are the following:

a) Poorly timed targeted killings.

Isreal has, in the past, assasinated Palestinian militants in times when there was a lull in terror and when hopes for peace had increased. Most notably was when Sharon demanded a time frame with no terror attacks a few years ago and when Arafat was able to wrangle a time-out from the Palestinian terrorist organizations.

Isreal promptly assasinated a Palestinian militant and the situation degenerated.

My qualm isn't so much about the assasination so much as it was the timing and the methods involved.

Timing: it was in a lull that should ahve been capitalized on.

Method: A bomb planted in a cemetery wall. This level of sofistication suggests that they had the ability to take him alive. This was not a "now or never" shot. It was one in which the luxury of time was obvious.

McGentrix wrote:

Palestinian terror organization use individuals disguised as civilians to blow themselves up taking as many other civilians as they can with them.

There is no excuse for Palestinian tactics. You will not find me defending them.

What I will say is that to compare Israeli military with Palestinian outlaws is apples and oranges. Isreal has had a rare few outlaws themselves.

McGentrix wrote:

The P.A. has been useless in reducing these attacks which is why Israel has banished Yassir to his HQ. Unless the Palestinians rise up against the terror organizations, which it is starting to look like they might, there will never be peace.

I disagree that Isreal sidelined Arafat soley due to the alledged terrorist link. I think a major motivation was the fact that he is the Palestinian symbol and the person who would lend the most validity to a settlement.

Rendering him irrelevant hurts the near term chances for settlement and there are Israelis who hold that as a goal.

I hope the Israelis for peace beat out the Israelis who oppose it and I am confident that they can.

I hope the Palestinians for peace can beat out the Palestinians for terror and I am not confident they can.

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Craven said-Isreal has had to be prodded and pressured as well. Seeking to portray Israel as eager and willing and the Palestinians unwilling is not the whole picture.

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The thing, to me, is simply following current actions. Sharon did something very risky toward Part I of the Roadmap. He opened the borders to allow Palestinians access they didn't have before. The result: three Palestinian terror groups got together and killed some Israelis. They broadcast their culpability. The uS and Israel looked to Abbas, who they have recently armed for a police force, and said, "OK, do something."

He said he wouldn't take action against the terrorists.

Who sacrificed and was met with terrorism? How did any Palestinian step up to meet the challenge?

Truthfully, this happens all the time. What is Israel's motivation to continue to take steps toward peace? Though I applaud Sharon's efforts, he looks like a fool to the people of Israel who count of him to keep them safe. I want the best for the Palestinians, but why don't I ever hear of any Palestinian taking a stand for the peace process? Abbas has already blinked.

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We know it's Palestinian, but where's the Authority?

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