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Is Lying About The Reason For War An Impeachable Offense?

 
 
GreenEyes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 10:48 pm
Lighten up Mystery Man ... I wasn't making "snide" comments about your name. I can't say that I KNOW what you went through because I personally didn't experience what you did. I am sure it was awful. As for why I didn't respond? THAT shall remain a mystery....
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 10:52 pm
Bush claims to have had enough intelligence to declare WAR.
For such a tremendous undertaking the intelligence must really be sure and damning.

Now Bush is under a great deal of pressure to produce the results of that intelligence. No more conjecture. No more missing data. We waved all these photographs around so eagerly before, and now we are completely free to go to those exact places and see with our own eyes.

If the intelligence was so solid, reliable, detailed, or substantial (for a war!) why doesn't he just use it, share it, and let everyone get on with life?
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GreenEyes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2003 10:57 pm
Thank you Codeborg!
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 12:08 am
While I am tempted to agree with you codeborg,there is one thing I dont think you are aware.
In some instances,revealing the intelligence data you have means revealing how you got it. Now,while we may not be running intelligence operations in Iraq now,we may be running those same kind of ops somewhere else in the world.
Revealing how you got it could get people killed,and that can also severely compromise our intel gathering abilities.
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 12:15 am
1) But wouldn't the intelligence lead us to whatever it was the intelligence was indicating?

2) Also, couldn't the U.S. reveal the full intelligence to well-trusted third parties, like a group at the U.N., Amnesty International, or some credible reporters who would sign a harsh non-disclosure agreement? At least have unbiased people vouch for it!

One source of suspicion for many people is that few significant countries went in to support the U.S.. It seems maybe the U.S. case for war wasn't convincing even when personal, private meetings were held with various leaders.

Why the lack of follow-through?
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 12:31 am
CodeBorg wrote:
1) But wouldn't the intelligence lead us to whatever it was the intelligence was indicating?

2) Also, couldn't the U.S. reveal the full intelligence to well-trusted third parties, like a group at the U.N., Amnesty International, or some credible reporters who would sign a harsh non-disclosure agreement? At least have unbiased people vouch for it!

One source of suspicion for many people is that few significant countries went in to support the U.S.. It seems maybe the U.S. case for war wasn't convincing even when personal, private meetings were held with various leaders.

Why the lack of follow-through?



You would really trust reporters or politicians not to leak info like that?
Every intelligence agency in the world has the UN compromised,and there isnt a reporter on the planet that could sit on that kind of info.
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 12:44 am
It's hard to say without knowing what type of information it is.
Detailed specs wouldn't mean very much to the layperson,
though personal testimonies and physical evidence would.

Some reporters (not all!) do have ethics and professional standards ... especially if the non-disclosure agreement included a death penalty. Heck, we don't know who Deep Throat is decades later. I'm sure somebody on Earth could be:

a) Knowledgeable to understand the data meaningfully
b) Unbiased to give an unslanted opinion
c) Trustworthy to keep the sources confidential

Blair was the only one really supporting Bush's evidence, and now
he seems to be openly investigating how valid it really was.

A solid reference sure would help Bush's case if he's being forthright,
and sure would hurt it if he's not. So why not?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 01:34 am
Pueo - You did not, I think, respond to CodeBorg's most important question - "1) But wouldn't the intelligence lead us to whatever it was the intelligence was indicating? "

I think we have good reason to be doubtful when, not only is the evidence not revealed, but also the things to which the evidence which is not being revealed is said to lead are not found.

If the damned intelligence was good enough to justify a war, why is it not good enough to lead to some weapons?

I think you would acknowledge that the Bush government's credibility is suffering the death of a thousand cuts on this matter - no?


I find the whole argument about we COULD tell you, and if we did, you would be VERY convinced, but we can't tell you, because it would not be safe to tell you a concerning one.

On the one hand, nobody wants to have people killed or tortured because they are identified - on the other hand - use of this argument by humans wanting to do things which are not justified or right easily leads to acceptance of terrible things.
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 01:51 am
Oops... you just called mysteryman "Peuo". The two people use the same avatar.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 01:56 am
Crikey! Sorry - I meant Mysteryman indeed!

Thank you, CodeBorg.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2003 02:47 pm
Mysteryman,

You include various links. Let me, just to make sure, see if I can pick up what the portent of them is.

mysteryman wrote:
From here...http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/03/sprj.irq.wmd.un.report/ We get this quote..."But the inspectors also made "little progress" in clearing up remaining questions concerning possible WMD programs, according to the latest report from UNMOVIC.

According to the report, released Monday, "The long list of proscribed items unaccounted for and as such resulting in unresolved disarmament issues was neither shortened by the inspections, nor by Iraqi declarations and documentation."


Iraq failed to account for the weapons ("proscribed items") it used to have. Result is that the inspectors couldnt make sure whether they actually had done away with them or still had them ("unresolved disarmament issues").

The objection thus was that the Iraqi documentation left the "remaining question" of whether they still had any WMD ("possible WMD programs") open. No proof for innocence - but also no proof for guilt.

mysteryman wrote:
Also,from here... http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1999/08/990825-iraq-rpt.htm we get this..."Panel. On discrepancies in the material balance of chemical munitions, Iraq continues its refusal to account for a falsely-reported expenditure of some 6,000 chemical munitions, for the disappearance of 550 artillery shells filled with mustard agent: - and for an inaccurate accounting of R-400 aerial CW bombs. Concerning VX, UNSCOM has stated that the amount of VX Iraq produced has yet to be verified and that Iraq has yet to admit to its weaponization of VX into missiles. Concerning the material balance of chemical weapons production equipment, the Commission stated that the disposition of eighteen shipping containers remains to be verified, it is known that two containers held nearly 200 pieces of glass-lined production equipment.


Iraq continued its "refusal to account" for weapons we knew it used to have and that now had "disappeared". I.e., we couldnt find them and they wouldnt tell us what had happened to them.

What it says here is that, when they insisted they didnt have any WMD, our issue with that was that they wouldnt supply us with the proof about how they'd got rid of them ("disposition remains to be verified") - or even denied they had them in the first place ("has yet to admit"). They gave no proof for innocence, that was our problem - but that doesnt, again, mean we had any proof for guilt.

mysteryman wrote:
The UNSCQM and Anorim reports note that in the biological weapons area, priority issues begin with Iraq's failure at a fundamental level to provide an accurate declaration of its BW program; Iraq has submitted several declarations all found to be incomplete. Iraq has not accounted for materials and items that may have been used or acquired for such a program. The result of these failures is that the scope of priority issues for disarmament covers all aspects of Iraq's BW program. Iraq retains the industrial capability and knowledge base to develop BW agents quickly."


The portent here, again, is that Iraq, concerning WMD, "had failed to provide an accurate declaration"; its declarations were "incomplete". I.e., it couldnt prove it did not have WMD. Now, in the "guilty until proven innocent" world of the UN resolution in question, that was enough to put the Hussein regime into the dock, but its a far cry from proof that it did have them.

Again, what this text says is merely that Iraq may still have had "materials and items" that "may have been used" for a WMD program and that it still had the capacity to develop such weapons - nothing here says they actually had them.

Now this is where I point out that all that the links you gave us show, is that the Hussein regime refused to tell us all it knew, and in some instances lied. That's bad-guy behavior, for sure, but where from that do you get to the conclusion that "many other UN reports state the same thing [..] Iraq DID have WMD [..] those are the facts"? None of what you just copied and pasted shows that. At most it raises suspicions.

And that raises the million dollar question here: is one entitled to start a war because one suspects that the other guy has weapons he shouldnt have?

Legally, a case could, I guess, hypothetically be made that if the UN - the authors of the resolutions in question - would have agreed that the breach of the UN resolution, constituted by the Iraqi refusal to fully document the fate of its one-time WMD, meant Iraq was no longer sufficiently "accepting the provisions of [the] resolution"; and that of "all necessary means" the member states would then have been entitled to use "to uphold and implement its resolution", war and occupation were the ones called for, and called for now - if it should have agreed so, then that war and occupation would have been legal.

Except it didnt. Which leaves us, again, free of such legalese, to consider for ourselves: is one entitled to start a war because one suspects that the other guy has weapons he shouldnt have?

In my opinion that would open up a bit of a Pandora's Box. Lots of states around of whom I'd suspect they were up to no good. But the Bush and Blair administrations told us they knew Iraq had WMD - now, that's something else - that it had the intelligence about where and what. Yet both before the war and now after the war, whenever they came up with what they proclaimed to be the "evidence" in question - much like you in your post - they failed to come up with anything that would actually substantiate their allegations.

In the end all we were supposed to go on was their true blue eyes - they knew, they couldnt share, we just had to trust them. Well, I dont. I dont exclude the possibility Iraq did have WMD, at all - it could well have - but I dont think the Bush and Blair governments had any evidence of it, and they have thus far failed to prove me wrong. And though its true that even just by failing to account for WMD that werent there anymore, Iraq was in breach of the UN resolution, are we really going to consider bad or deceitful bookkeeping by itself reason enough to start massive war? The UN didnt think so - many of us dont think so - and thats why the Bush administration told us it wasnt just because of that, it was because they knew more was the matter. Now it seems they were indeed lying, bluffing. Thats what all the brouhaha is about.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2003 03:02 pm
nimh wrote:
But the Bush and Blair administrations told us they knew Iraq had WMD - now, that's something else - that it had the intelligence about where and what.


That's why the "as big as California" argument that Scipio used so ardently doesnt stick, either - if they knew, shouldn't they be able to find some evidence within a reasonable scope of time?

These are the same people who, during the war, had us believe that the Iraqi army quickly fell into disarray, humbled by the American advance - and on this we've actually been able to see they were right to some extent - yet now we are supposed to believe that this regime in disarray, in the middle of war, was able to have sophisticated chemical weapons, that purportedly could have been sent flying in the direction of enemy countries on rockets "within 45 minutes", dismantled and disappeared beyond any recoverable trace within the short time the American advance took?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2003 03:05 pm
nimh, You're getting too technical. This administration knows all of that. They just want more time to hunt for them - until hell freezes over. c.i.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jun, 2003 04:02 pm
The original question - Impeach. This Congress would never Impeach nor do I fully believe there is an impeachable offense - maybe. But, there are crimes against humanity. These should be tried in World Court. No matter what, these offenses are real and this administration is guilty and evil. As evil as Saddam? No, but catching up!
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Crunch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 03:40 pm
nimh wrote:
nimh wrote:
But the Bush and Blair administrations told us they knew Iraq had WMD - now, that's something else - that it had the intelligence about where and what.


That's why the "as big as California" argument that Scipio used so ardently doesnt stick, either - if they knew, shouldn't they be able to find some evidence within a reasonable scope of time?

These are the same people who, during the war, had us believe that the Iraqi army quickly fell into disarray, humbled by the American advance - and on this we've actually been able to see they were right to some extent - yet now we are supposed to believe that this regime in disarray, in the middle of war, was able to have sophisticated chemical weapons, that purportedly could have been sent flying in the direction of enemy countries on rockets "within 45 minutes", dismantled and disappeared beyond any recoverable trace within the short time the American advance took?


But they have found weapons. They found the missles especially tweaked to allow for biochem weapons in them. They found the trucks, which had been scrubbed clean. They found that bi-use plant a couple days into the war. To say that we've found nothing is not true.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 06:22 pm
Crunch wrote:
But they have found weapons. They found the missles especially tweaked to allow for biochem weapons in them. They found the trucks, which had been scrubbed clean. They found that bi-use plant a couple days into the war. To say that we've found nothing is not true.


Well, I must admit I havent kept up with all the initial "findings" and subsequent retractions anymore - there've been so many - so I can't say with certainty about the plant, for example.

I remember the story, though - wasnt the issue exactly about it being, indeed, a "bi-use" plant - i.e., the US government asserted that it could have been in use to create weapons, but independent observers commenting that it could also just have been serving as an agricultural/civilian plant? (anyone care to refresh my memory?)

[see post below - found back the earlier posts about it]

I remember because, if I'm right, this was the discussion about it having been camouflaged, which according to some was a sure-fire indication of guilty conscience, but comes to no surprise to those familiar with totalitarian systems. The Soviet Union was also pretty good at camouflaging or otherwise closing off "strategic industries" from public view, and the paranoia of Hussein-like dictatorships would turn a lot of factories of whatever kind into "strategic interests". The news about the missiles I think was also retracted later, in small print.

About the trucks, at least, I have a reference ready, since this news just came in (and I'm sorry to the rest of y'all that this makes this thread the third one in which I'm pasting the article ...):

Quote:
Iraqi mobile labs nothing to do with germ warfare, report finds

Peter Beaumont, Antony Barnett and Gaby Hinsliff
Sunday June 15, 2003
The Observer

An official British investigation into two trailers found in northern Iraq has concluded they are not mobile germ warfare labs, as was claimed by Tony Blair and President George Bush, but were for the production of hydrogen to fill artillery balloons, as the Iraqis have continued to insist.
The conclusion by biological weapons experts working for the British Government is an embarrassment for the Prime Minister, who has claimed that the discovery of the labs proved that Iraq retained weapons of mass destruction and justified the case for going to war against Saddam Hussein.

Instead, a British scientist and biological weapons expert, who has examined the trailers in Iraq, told The Observer last week: 'They are not mobile germ warfare laboratories. You could not use them for making biological weapons. They do not even look like them. They are exactly what the Iraqis said they were - facilities for the production of hydrogen gas to fill balloons.'

The conclusion of the investigation ordered by the British Government - and revealed by The Observer last week - is hugely embarrassing for Blair, who had used the discovery of the alleged mobile labs as part of his efforts to silence criticism over the failure of Britain and the US to find any weapons of mass destruction since the invasion of Iraq. [..]

The revelation that the mobile labs were to produce hydrogen for artillery balloons will also cause discomfort for the British authorities because the Iraqi army's original system was sold to it by the British company, Marconi Command & Control.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 06:34 pm
Yep, I remembered correctly about the plant. Even Timberland, perhaps the A2K poster most articulately confident about the US-led search for Iraqi WMD, who initially posted the reports proclaiming "US TROOPS CAPTURE CHEMICAL PLANT" as confirmation of his conviction, later had to qualify that "The Chemical Factory, though fortified and camfolaged, apparently contained nothing, apart from a general officer and a security detachment", and later still acknowledged that "'The Chemical Plant' was acknowledged as apparently having come to naught".
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 06:49 pm
Quote:
But the Bush and Blair administrations told us they knew Iraq had WMD - now, that's something else - that it had the intelligence about where and what.

Yeah, nimh, they lied. They didn't have intelligence about where and what. There may have been good justification for such an invasion, and there may not have been, but they lied at least once, and we not have to consider that possibility in regard to anything else we might be expected to believe.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 05:58 am
Poor timber...

If anyone should find themselves with several days during which they would have positively nothing to do except to click back through the archives of the three US/UN/Iraq threads and read timber's posts alone...

...you'd read sad proof of the depth of the self-delusion of the Bush adminstration's war supporters.

For an otherwise sage fellow, he sure got sucked into the maw.

Haven't seen him around for a long while...
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 08:44 am
quick notes... (hi roger, nice to see you)

re weapons...pre-war, Rumsfeld said 'we know they have them and we know WHERE THEY ARE', and he then went on to list a number of specific locations.

Those of us who allow ourselves to be sceptical perceive not simply A lie, but a clear pattern of disregard for the truth, internationally and domestically. Those of us who think such scepticism socially dangerous (or at least, who think scepticism a good theoretical stance except when it arrives at conclusion B) seem to hold, with this administration, that truth-fiddling is a necessary reality in the cause of spreading American goodness.

re Timber... I'm very sorry but he did ask me to pass on to all of you that he is quite well, but has been pulled into a number of critical domestic situations (not a people thing...a plumbing, drainage, and architecture thing).
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