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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 09:57 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
MizunoMan wrote:
The Brits seem to have a problem with photos, in general.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6324771,00.html


They have laws re that - as stated by that report. Thought it might well be that laws are problem for some.

Quote:
"Photographs of named people that are in police possession are classed as data and their release is restricted by law.

"Acpo (Association of Chief Police Officers) guidance states that releasing a 'wanted' photograph of a named person should only happen in exceptional circumstances where officers believe that the named suspect may be a danger to the public."


It's a confusing news article. If these are "escaped murderers" as the article suggests, how is it possible to believe they would NOT be a "danger to the public"? If they are convicted murderers, they are de jure dangerous. And what were they doing in an "open jail"?

Bizarrre.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:02 am
Ticomaya wrote:
If they are convicted murderers, they are de jure dangerous. And what were they doing in an "open jail"?


I'm not sure about the English law but here de iure "dangerous" means that it must be boted explicid in the sentence (or late by the prison authority).

Seems to be similar in the UK.

After a certain period, prisoners, who are not thaught to be dangerous, can be send to an open jail.

(Such is done here by law.)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:08 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
If they are convicted murderers, they are de jure dangerous. And what were they doing in an "open jail"?


I'm not sure about the English law but here de iure "dangerous" means that it must be boted explicid in the sentence (or late by the prison authority).

Seems to be similar in the UK.

After a certain period, prisoners, who are not thaught to be dangerous, can be send to an open jail.

(Such is done here by law.)


Then it's a stupid law.

How is it possible to not deem a convicted murderer dangerous, to the point you would be more concerned with the rights of the escaped convicts in publishing their photographs -- which ought to be public anyway ... what were these, secret trials that convicted them? -- than you are in informing the public sufficiently to warn them of the identity of the escapees?



(Note: And I'm not bashing "English law" ... we have plenty of stupid laws on this side of the Atlantic.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:18 am
As said, I don't know enough about the English criminal law and imprisoment law to give an answer here.

We have e.g. the Placement in Preventive Detention here, too (as well as the Supervision of Conduct as a 'stronger' form of probation [actually, in practise there isn't much difference with the latter - only much more paperwork].)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:19 am
Quote:
The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein


*snort*

Are you looking to invest in some river-spanning technology, Tico? I have a sweet deal for ya...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:33 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein


*snort*

Are you looking to invest in some river-spanning technology, Tico? I have a sweet deal for ya...

Cycloptichorn


It's a true statement to everyone except those devoted to placing blame on Bush 43, Cyclops. Read the AUMF.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:36 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
As said, I don't know enough about the English criminal law and imprisoment law to give an answer here.

We have e.g. the Placement in Preventive Detention here, too (as well as the Supervision of Conduct as a 'stronger' form of probation [actually, in practise there isn't much difference with the latter - only much more paperwork].)


Here, convicted felons lose some of the rights held by others in society. For instance, they are forbidden from possessing a firearm ... they cannot vote ... their pictures are subject to publication if they escape from prison.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:38 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein


*snort*

Are you looking to invest in some river-spanning technology, Tico? I have a sweet deal for ya...

Cycloptichorn


It's a true statement to everyone except those devoted to placing blame on Bush 43, Cyclops. Read the AUMF.


Don't be mendacious. We all know that 'official' documents have to say one thing or another, but the war didn't start because Saddam took any sort of action whatsoever; so to say that the war started 'because of Saddam' is disingenuous at best and deceptive at worst.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
MizunoMan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 10:39 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
As said, I don't know enough about the English criminal law and imprisoment law to give an answer here.


Update

Quote:
Pictures of two murderers on the run from jail were released last night after the Lord Chancellor criticised a police force for suggesting that the Human Rights Act prevented their publication.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton, QC, dismissed the suggestions by Derbyshire police as "absolute nonsense" and demanded an explanation of their refusal to release the pictures.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:07 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein


*snort*

Are you looking to invest in some river-spanning technology, Tico? I have a sweet deal for ya...

Cycloptichorn


It's a true statement to everyone except those devoted to placing blame on Bush 43, Cyclops. Read the AUMF.


Don't be mendacious. We all know that 'official' documents have to say one thing or another, but the war didn't start because Saddam took any sort of action whatsoever; so to say that the war started 'because of Saddam' is disingenuous at best and deceptive at worst.

Cycloptichorn


Your theory is that when a cop shoots and kills a gun-waving criminal, the cop is the cause of the death. While any rational person would realize the blame lies primarily with the actions of the bad guy. Yes, the cop pulled the trigger, but the proximate cause of the death were the actions of the criminal.

Saddam set off a natural and continuous chain of events that culminated in the invasion of Iraq following the AUMF. Saddam is the real cause of the war.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:09 am
MizunoMan wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
As said, I don't know enough about the English criminal law and imprisoment law to give an answer here.


Update

Quote:
Pictures of two murderers on the run from jail were released last night after the Lord Chancellor criticised a police force for suggesting that the Human Rights Act prevented their publication.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton, QC, dismissed the suggestions by Derbyshire police as "absolute nonsense" and demanded an explanation of their refusal to release the pictures.


My faith in English law is restored.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:12 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein


*snort*

Are you looking to invest in some river-spanning technology, Tico? I have a sweet deal for ya...

Cycloptichorn


It's a true statement to everyone except those devoted to placing blame on Bush 43, Cyclops. Read the AUMF.


Don't be mendacious. We all know that 'official' documents have to say one thing or another, but the war didn't start because Saddam took any sort of action whatsoever; so to say that the war started 'because of Saddam' is disingenuous at best and deceptive at worst.

Cycloptichorn


Your theory is that when a cop shoots and kills a gun-waving criminal, the cop is the cause of the death. While any rational person would realize the blame lies primarily with the actions of the bad guy. Yes, the cop pulled the trigger, but the proximate cause of the death were the actions of the criminal.

Saddam set off a natural and continuous chain of events that culminated in the invasion of Iraq following the AUMF. Saddam is the real cause of the war.


Bull sh*t. Saddam wasn't 'waving a gun around.' There wasn't even proof that he had a gun. He wasn't actively threatening anyone. Your analogy fails.

You say that Saddam set off a 'natural chain of events' but that's bullsh*t as well. There wasn't anything 'natural' about ten years of bombing his country after GW1 and then using 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq. Saddam was an asshole and a brutal dictator, but he wasn't why we attacked Iraq, and you know it. Persisting in playing this little historical revisionism game of yours is a waste of time, Tico; neither of us are here to convince (or even score points off of) one another of anything, so why are you bothering with the lies? You know that Iraq was attacked because elements of the Administration saw the opportunity to do so in the post 9/11 world and took their opportunity, straight up f*cking America in the process; which was naturally predicted by many prior to the attack.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:27 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein


*snort*

Are you looking to invest in some river-spanning technology, Tico? I have a sweet deal for ya...

Cycloptichorn


It's a true statement to everyone except those devoted to placing blame on Bush 43, Cyclops. Read the AUMF.


Don't be mendacious. We all know that 'official' documents have to say one thing or another, but the war didn't start because Saddam took any sort of action whatsoever; so to say that the war started 'because of Saddam' is disingenuous at best and deceptive at worst.

Cycloptichorn


Your theory is that when a cop shoots and kills a gun-waving criminal, the cop is the cause of the death. While any rational person would realize the blame lies primarily with the actions of the bad guy. Yes, the cop pulled the trigger, but the proximate cause of the death were the actions of the criminal.

Saddam set off a natural and continuous chain of events that culminated in the invasion of Iraq following the AUMF. Saddam is the real cause of the war.


Bull sh*t. Saddam wasn't 'waving a gun around.' There wasn't even proof that he had a gun. He wasn't actively threatening anyone. Your analogy fails.

You say that Saddam set off a 'natural chain of events' but that's bullsh*t as well. There wasn't anything 'natural' about ten years of bombing his country after GW1 and then using 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq. Saddam was an **** and a brutal dictator, but he wasn't why we attacked Iraq, and you know it. Persisting in playing this little historical revisionism game of yours is a waste of time, Tico; neither of us are here to convince (or even score points off of) one another of anything, so why are you bothering with the lies? You know that Iraq was attacked because elements of the Administration saw the opportunity to do so in the post 9/11 world and took their opportunity, straight up f*cking America in the process; which was naturally predicted by many prior to the attack.

Cycloptichorn


Read the AUMF again Cyclops, then analyze again which of us is playing "historical revisionism."

You may not like the AUMF, you may not even agree with it, but THAT is what you are arguing against.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:48 am
Quote:
January 09, 2007
Sandy Berger's Free Ride from the Media
By Joel Mowbray


With the release of an internal investigation last week, we now know that former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger not only knowingly flouted laws for handling classified documents, but he also went to incredible lengths to cover his tracks and thwart investigators.

While Berger's "punishment" was a pittance of a fine, former Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin has been financially ruined and sentenced to 12 and a half years for passing along far less-classified information to unauthorized third parties.

Unfortunately, disproportionate justice is inherent to the legal system. The written playbook might be the same for various cases, but different judges and different dynamics can lead to dramatically disparate results.

But what excuse is there for the wildly different media coverage of the two cases, both of which came to public attention in the summer of 2004?

Given the nature of each man's actions and the starkly different status each enjoyed in the public eye, the media actually was justified in providing dissimilar coverage. Only the press got it exactly wrong.

One man verbally disclosed classified information devoid of sources or methods. The other snuck five different versions of a top-secret document out of a secure facility.

One was a low-level career bureaucrat, while the other was just a few years removed from being the president's national security advisor. One man cooperated with authorities and didn't even retain a lawyer before being interrogated, while the other lied to investigators and then intentionally destroyed evidence.

While conservative news outlets reveled in the Berger story, the mainstream media was at best blasé. Of all the articles about Berger's case -- from the revelation that he was the subject of an inquiry through the recent release of the National Archives inspector general's report -- only one made it to the front page of either The Washington Post or the New York Times. Coverage of Franklin's case, however, earned that distinction more than a half-dozen times.

The Franklin affair started out with a bang. Over seven days, starting in late August 2004, The Washington Post published six distinct articles, three of which landed on the front page. It was a sizzling story. Someone who worked in the Pentagon seen by the media as too pro-Israel was suspected of passing national-security secrets to the Jewish state. The Post even implied that five others -- all Jews with "strong ties to Israel" -- might also be spies.

In the end, the FBI's full-court press only netted one conviction of a government official. Franklin plea-bargained to three counts, including passing classified information to an Israeli government official and two men at pro-Israel lobby AIPAC. (The trial of Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman is slated to begin by the spring.)

According to someone with intimate knowledge of the leaked draft presidential directive, the document contained no sources and no methods. It had no sensitive material of any kind. It was nothing more than a policy paper -- just a few pages that resembled an opinion-editorial -- advocating tougher diplomacy, not war, in dealing with Iran.

Reporters at The Post and the New York Times worked overtime to find new angles in the Franklin case, and that effort yielded considerable ink. On the Berger case, though, the mega newspapers simply reported stories as information came out. There was no digging, no investigative passion. Even the disclosure of the inspector general's report only happened because of a freedom of information request filed by the Associated Press.

The mainstream media's palpable disinterest in the Berger case is hardly justified. Many questions remain unanswered. Of the few explanations Berger and his defenders have actually provided, none passes the laugh test.

Berger claimed in court last year that smuggling classified documents out of the National Archives was about "personal convenience," but the inspector general report states that he walked out of the building and down the street, found a construction site, looked to see if the coast was clear, then slid behind a fence and hid the documents under a trailer.

Which part of that elaborate procedure was "convenient"?

According to the New York Times story last April following Berger's guilty plea, "Associates attributed the episode to fatigue and poor judgment." While lying to authorities is poor judgment, it is also illegal. And how exactly did fatigue drive Berger to use his scissors to shred three versions of the top-secret document?

Despite the report's devastating blow to Berger's excuse machine, it was buried. The Post dumped it on page 7, and the New York Times exiled it to page 36.

Reflecting -- or perhaps because of -- the respective media attention is the justice meted out to each man. President Clinton's national security adviser will not see the inside of a jail cell. His $50,000 fine sounds big, but it's roughly equivalent to a few weeks out of his princely salary. Meanwhile, Franklin has lost half his pension and was given a stiffer sentence than several Islamic terrorists convicted in the very same courthouse.

Just don't expect the Post or the Times to point that out.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:49 am
Ticomaya wrote:
My faith in English law is restored.


They didn't change the law :wink:
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:53 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
My faith in English law is restored.


They didn't change the law :wink:


Exactly, Walter ... they didn't need to. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:56 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein


*snort*

Are you looking to invest in some river-spanning technology, Tico? I have a sweet deal for ya...

Cycloptichorn


It's a true statement to everyone except those devoted to placing blame on Bush 43, Cyclops. Read the AUMF.


Don't be mendacious. We all know that 'official' documents have to say one thing or another, but the war didn't start because Saddam took any sort of action whatsoever; so to say that the war started 'because of Saddam' is disingenuous at best and deceptive at worst.

Cycloptichorn


Your theory is that when a cop shoots and kills a gun-waving criminal, the cop is the cause of the death. While any rational person would realize the blame lies primarily with the actions of the bad guy. Yes, the cop pulled the trigger, but the proximate cause of the death were the actions of the criminal.

Saddam set off a natural and continuous chain of events that culminated in the invasion of Iraq following the AUMF. Saddam is the real cause of the war.


Bull sh*t. Saddam wasn't 'waving a gun around.' There wasn't even proof that he had a gun. He wasn't actively threatening anyone. Your analogy fails.

You say that Saddam set off a 'natural chain of events' but that's bullsh*t as well. There wasn't anything 'natural' about ten years of bombing his country after GW1 and then using 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq. Saddam was an **** and a brutal dictator, but he wasn't why we attacked Iraq, and you know it. Persisting in playing this little historical revisionism game of yours is a waste of time, Tico; neither of us are here to convince (or even score points off of) one another of anything, so why are you bothering with the lies? You know that Iraq was attacked because elements of the Administration saw the opportunity to do so in the post 9/11 world and took their opportunity, straight up f*cking America in the process; which was naturally predicted by many prior to the attack.

Cycloptichorn


Read the AUMF again Cyclops, then analyze again which of us is playing "historical revisionism."

You may not like the AUMF, you may not even agree with it, but THAT is what you are arguing against.


The AUMF was the justification written up after the decision to attack had already been made. It does not neccessarily show root causes for our actions, but excuses used to jusity our actions.

This is not difficult logic, Tico.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:57 am
Ticomaya wrote:
McTag wrote:
I have explained all this before.

Good pictures (pictures showing human kindness, positive aspects) are newsworthy.
Bad pictures (showing atrocities, injuries) are newsworthy.

The problem lies when a person like McG, or you, who has a record of supporting the policy of using military firepower against civilians (or where civilians are bound to die) and has shown himself to be completely unconcerned about injuries and fatalities among the indigenous population (even showing enthusiasm), selecting for display a picture like that.

The army is there to suppress the country, by force if it will not submit. It will not. And so the army does what armies do.
It is sophistry to pretend it is there to run hospitals or boys' camps (McG's latest offering).

It is propaganda.


If it's propaganda, so are the photos that support your cause. It's ALL propaganda. If you fail to see that much it's clear to me you are hopelessly wallowed in your bias, and your position here is hypocritical (in addition to being wrong).

Now, speaking for myself, I have not shown myself to be completely unconcerned about injuries and fatalities among the indigenous population of Iraq. That is simply your erroneous sense impression. But I do not believe a necessary and justified war should not be undertaken because of the reality that there will be innocent casualties. The reason this war started was entirely because of Saddam Hussein. But the war is undertaken, and the majority of the American forces are endeavoring to do battle with the enemy -- a cowardly enemy that hides itself in and among the civilian population -- and minimize civilian casualties. That is a daunting task, and it is impossible to do perfectly. Your bias will not allow you to consider that view, for you view it completely repugnant that the American forces are doing battle in the first place, and that places you in the position of believing the American forces are more evil than the enemy they face, who are actually the proximate cause of the civilian casualties by virtue of their tactics.

Now, I believe I fully understand your position, and I could not disagree with it any more strongly.


You could call the muslim fighters many things, but not, I think, cowards.

You may as well conclude that the US forces are cowards, because they habitually call in airstrikes, which often go wrong at a deadly cost to the civilian population, rather than risk infantry casualties.

And yes, you are right in this respect, I do not believe the American (and British) position has any higher moral standing, given the history to this and their conduct here, than their adversaries.
Clearly, they have not.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:59 am
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 11:59 am
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7028/070104madamespeakxjm5.gif
0 Replies
 
 

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