Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III

I wasn't criticizing -- only noting how it was appropriate.

But as long as I'm here, allow me to weigh in on the current controversy. I don't think showing the photo, in itself, is propaganda or that it deserved such a strong rebuke. However, the amount of propaganda sounding posts that followed in the ensuing discussion is astounding. I don't know if anything other than time would allow the authors to see it as such.

I wasn't criticizing -- only noting how it was appropriate.

But as long as I'm here, allow me to weigh in on the current controversy. I don't think showing the photo, in itself, is propaganda or that it deserved such a strong rebuke. However, the amount of propaganda sounding posts that followed in the ensuing discussion is astounding. I don't know if anything other than time would allow the authors to see it as such.

It's a discussion of beliefs. Why do you see it as propaganda?

Do you think anti-America or anti-Iraq War posts are propaganda?

Or are you capable of seeing the other side of this particular viewpoint?

Do you think that the many dozens or perhaps hundreds of posts by those condemning the U.S. President and/or administration, condemning activities of the U.S. troops, condemning the war in Iraq as illegal and immoral and/or enriching the oil companies, etc. are astounding? Do you think time will allow the authors of those posts to see it as such?

This thread has been kept going so that those of us who choose to do so can show a more honest and balanced assessment of the situation and can appreciate the good motives and the good actions of people who we believe are trying to do the best thing and do good. If we are aggressive in our protest of unwarranted, mean spirited, and hateful posts by the self-righteous and self-appointed bigots who claim moral superiority on this subject, we can certainly be forgiven if not commended for defending the truth against what is truly hateful propaganda.

Ticomaya wrote:

It's a discussion of beliefs. Why do you see it as propaganda?

Because the picture painted of the US military is one of angels in uniform and the US Government of Jesus incarnate. You would think the idea that our government acts in our country's self-interest is a foreign concept. And to absolve us of any and all responsibility for the current situation not only smacks of propaganda, but is completely contrary to the conservative principle of accepting responsibility for one's actions.

Tico wrote:

Or are you capable of seeing the other side of this particular viewpoint?

I can see the other side of the viewpoint as to whether or not the invasion was justified. Is that what you meant?

I can't see the viewpoint of US good -- everyone else bad.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

And then you criticize McG, who knows all that, and who properly directs his anger at the terrorists, and who posted a beautiful picture of a genuine act of kindness?

Now I would be interested what exactly that genuine act of kindness has been:
- that a Chief Master Sgt. of a Medical Groups takes personally care
or
- that the girl was treated in an US military hospital
or
- all of above?

All of the above.

Ticomaya wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

And then you criticize McG, who knows all that, and who properly directs his anger at the terrorists, and who posted a beautiful picture of a genuine act of kindness?

Now I would be interested what exactly that genuine act of kindness has been:
- that a Chief Master Sgt. of a Medical Groups takes personally care
or
- that the girl was treated in an US military hospital
or
- all of above?

All of the above.

Well, such is thought to be normal by most armed forces medical services.

Foxfyre wrote:

Do you think that the many dozens or perhaps hundreds of posts by those condemning the U.S. President and/or administration, condemning activities of the U.S. troops, condemning the war in Iraq as illegal and immoral and/or enriching the oil companies, etc. are astounding? Do you think time will allow the authors of those posts to see it as such?

Some and yes.

Quote:

This thread has been kept going so that those of us who choose to do so can show a more honest and balanced assessment of the situation and can appreciate the good motives and the good actions of people who we believe are trying to do the best thing and do good. If we are aggressive in our protest of unwarranted, mean spirited, and hateful posts by the self-righteous and self-appointed bigots who claim moral superiority on this subject, we can certainly be forgiven if not commended for defending the truth against what is truly hateful propaganda.

Balance is a wonderful thing. It would be good if, in reacting to someone else's unwarranted, mean spirited, and hateful posts in one direction we did not engage in equal yet opposite behavior. Oftentimes, others motives and "self-righteousness" are projected onto them out of defensiveness.

Are you seriously suggesting there is any effort to imply -- by any of the Iraq War supporters participating in this thread -- that war is not violent and ugly, or that members of the US military are not capable of atrocities?

But then we saw the tattered infrastructure, the malnourished children, and a people who had been so long terrorized and brutalized that they were no longer able to help themselves. And we rolled up our sleeves and went to work to help them. We witnessed first hand the tragic results of the UN sanctions and saw how inhumane it would have been to have continued them. They want personal freedoms and democracy and all the good things of life that we in the free world enjoy.

In the absence of Saddam who was no better than the terrorists, the terrorists set about to put the people under the thumb of the law of Sharia and that meant they could not be allowed to direct their own lives or have personal freedoms. And as it quickly became apparent that any form of democracy in Iraq was infectious and would likely catch on elsewhere, the terrorists converged on Iraq to prevent it from happening. That coupled with the vicious militant groups within Iraq, each abandoning the idea of a free nation in favor of attempts to grab the power for themselves, and you have the viciousness of terrorism demonstrated by outside terrorists aided and abetted by a relatively small number of homegrown terrorists.

No, I meant the viewpoint you hold on the "propaganda" issue. The presentation of ideas on these fora that you consider to be propaganda -- worthy of your contempt -- and what you don't consider to be propaganda.

(from Wichita, KS, btw).

So I would imagine you see no problem with posting a picture of this "normal" scene then.

Ticomaya wrote:

(from Wichita, KS, btw).

I know a bit about that part of your stae, btw: a (distant) uncle founded/buit four churches there and became a bishop later :wink:

What did you think you were newly "disclosing" in the above post?

I understand fully you think showing a photograph of an American serviceman comforting a wounded Iraqi child is propaganda. That is because you view the US military as "evil." There is no doubt that had I posted that picture, you would have responded the same way, because my support of the Iraq War has been every bit as vocal and steadfast as McG's. Every single word of my prior post remains as valid as it was before you replied. You continue to swallow all of the anti-America swill put before you, and only occasionally come here to find your previously-held beliefs to be as wrong as you steadfastly believe them to be right. I believe you have admitted your tendency is to believe an anti-American story upon first read, without taking the time to assess its veracity. That is your default position -- mine is the opposite. I do not view the US military as "evil," and certainly do not view the posting of a photograph of a US serviceman doing "good" as anything but a presentation of the "other side of the story," ... news that is not being shown by the mainstream media because it is not "sexy," not interesting, or doesn't promote the media's agenda. For you to assert otherwise is nothing more that a demonstration of your bias.

And I note my question to you remains unanswered.

Ticomaya wrote:

So tell me .... what type of photos of US servicemen would you find "acceptable" for publication at A2K? Photos of them being injured by IEDs? Videos of them being targeted by sniper attack? Images of them eating Iraqi babies for dinner?

Ha! So this whole mess about creationism is your family's fault, isn't it?

Sorry, but that's just so over the top I can hardly read it. And the bits about everything that's wrong in Iraq being because of those evil insurgents/terrorists. (That's from McG mostly.) And how was the poor, well-meaning US of A supposed to know that these big bad men would come and try to ruin democracy for everyone? And when the big bad men aren't trying to kill freedom, it's those stupid backwards Iraqis who don't know how to preserve their own culture.

Ticomaya wrote:

No, I meant the viewpoint you hold on the "propaganda" issue. The presentation of ideas on these fora that you consider to be propaganda -- worthy of your contempt -- and what you don't consider to be propaganda.

I think I already indicated that I can see it on the "other side". Also, I can see how someone might react to the implication that showing a soldier doing a good thing is, of itself, propaganda.

Perhaps. But anybody who would maliciously criticize a member because that member posted a picture of a soldier doing a beautiful thing deserves to be called on the meanspirited hatefulness he exhibits. Also those should be called on it who were inspired by an act of kindness to bring up all the rare real and alleged instances of military misconduct with the implication that such instances are the norm rather than the acts of kindness.

And when the hateful, meanspirited remarks are further accented by flat out misrepresentations, exaggerations, and lies, they do evoke passionate defense from those who know the truth.

We did naively think this war would go better than any other war we have ever fought, at least those we intended to win. Though the loss of life in this one, both military and civilian, is miniscule compared to all the others, it is still war with all the setbacks, screw ups, errors in judgment, mistakes, and frustrations that have been inherent in all wars. And yes, tragedies too.

War itself is inhumane, stupid, and obscene.