Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 08:44 am
With all the noise about the ABC miniseries in the last two weeks, a film at least as interesting has gone relatively unnoticed, and that would be the release as a DVD of "United 93". This film is not fiction; it is recent history.

To my thinking, it should be almost impossible for a non muslim to watch this film and still want Islam to be legal in his country.

From everything I've managed to read and learn about Islam over a long period of time, two major ideas strike me as glaringly obvoius:

  • Islam is not like any other religion and cannot be treated as if it were, and any nation which ignores this reality is basically on a path to national/cultural suicide.
  • A non muslim nation with as many as one muslims residing in it, other than as ambassadors, will ultimately have three choices in dealing with Islam:
    • Submit to Islam.
    • Ban Islam.
    • And there may or may not be a third choice, which would be to either find or create some tamed version of it to officially sanction and tightly control, while all the others are banned.



IF that third choice is to exist, which is a very big if, then a very long list of changes would have to be made from present practices. In the United States, we would have to start by eliminating the wahhabi influence, which would entail rounding up and deporting pretty much all Islamic religious officials in the country. The hate sermons would have to go, the little hate schools would have to go, and I would want to insist on armed soldiers of other faiths attending all Islammic religious activities with orders to immediately arrest anybody engaging in anything which could be viewed as treason or sedition. I would also want loyalty oaths from any American citizens practicing the religion and sworn statements of peaceful intentions from anybody else practicing it within the borders of the country.

Like I say, whether all of that is even possible is a big if. My own preference at this point would be to ban the religion outright within the United States, practitioners being told they had thirty days to find another religion or another country, and simply get it over with.

The 80% of muslims who lead rational lives would find other religions, and the rest would be well gotten rid of.

I'd be curious as to the opinions of those who have seen "United 93".
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:12 am
Have you ever heard of the First Amendment Gunga?
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:15 am
Its existence may be inferred from the existence of the second. Further investigation is unnecessary.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:17 am
I would also point out that there are a fair number of people (perhaps even here) who would happily ban your point of view.

Incidently I am not one of these people. I am a stronger proponent of liberty of speech and religion than most.

I would defend you as strongly as I would defend Muslims-- this defense goes to any individual who doesn't directly commit or support a violent act.

Right wing Christians have commited and advocated acts of violence, and the ones that broke the law are now in prison (or dead). This doesn't mean that the rest of them should be banned.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:20 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Have you ever heard of the First Amendment Gunga?


The first ammendment does not cover shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theater when there is no fire, and it does not cover death-to-America sermons being preached in front of people with two-digit IQs, like John Muhammed and John Malvo. Too many ways one of the dickheads with the two-digit-IQ is likely to act on the sermon.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:26 am
ebrown_p wrote:

Right wing Christians have commited and advocated acts of violence, and the ones that broke the law are now in prison (or dead). This doesn't mean that the rest of them should be banned.


The difference is obvious enough to most people.

Granted no law of physics prevents a Christian or a Jew from being an a$$hole, but a Christian or Jew has to be in violation of the major ideas of his religion to be an a$$hole.

A muslim, on the other hand, has to be in violation of the major ideas of HIS religion in order NOT to be an a$$hole.

That to my thinking presents an unacceptable danger to nations which tolerate it. Out of a population of a billion or more, if even ten percent are willing to take the teachings of that religion seriously and follow them, that makes for a hundred million lunatics running around the world blowing things up, burning things down, and cutting off people's heads.

As I noted however, I'd be curious as to the opinions of people who HAVE seen the film. You clearly haven't.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:29 am
Gunga, you seem to want to turn our country into a militant, repressive, backward nation. You have a lot in common with our enemies.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:33 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Gunga, you seem to want to turn our country into a militant, repressive, backward nation. You have a lot in common with our enemies.


Call it whatever you like. To my own thinking I am not a racist or a xenophobe or such. To my thinking, my view on this subject is rational and logical, and yours is not.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 09:41 am
For reference: the 1st ammendment.

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


You don't want to open that door, gunga. What you're advocating is totally in violation of the principles of our country -- completely and totally unAmerican.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 10:27 am
FreeDuck wrote:


You don't want to open that door, gunga. What you're advocating is totally in violation of the principles of our country -- completely and totally unAmerican.


Yeah, I DO want to open that door. Neither the constitution nor the bill of rights was ever intended as a suicide pact or an excuse for treason or sedition or a get-out-of-jail-free pass for foreign operatives, spies, or terrorists.

The thing which freaked me out most about 9/11 was the idea that these guys could have lived in America for several years, worked with Americans, lived with Americans, their kids gone to school with Americans, and THEN committed such a crime. That's aside from the evidence that large numbers of slammites living in and around NY and NJ knew that something was afoot and never told anybody about it.

Think every sort of talk or concern about fifth columns is a joke? Ask this guy about fifth columns:

http://www.archives.gov/research/ww2/photos/images/ww2-81.jpg

I suspect that German fifth columns had recently brought about the collapse of his country when the photo was snapped.....
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:05 am
gungasnake wrote:
Granted no law of physics prevents a Christian or a Jew from being an a$$hole, but a Christian or Jew has to be in violation of the major ideas of his religion to be an a$$hole.

So that must be why most Christians and Jews are a$$holes, then. Which one are you?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:14 pm
gungasnake wrote:
The first ammendment does not cover shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theater when there is no fire

Yes. And whenever a hate preacher, islamic or not, creates a clear and present danger, the Feds can already bust him for that. At least that's the opinion of same justice who also gave the "Fire" analogy said.
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:20 pm
Who was it that said anyone who would sacrifice some liberty in order to gain more security deserves neither?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:22 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Yeah, I DO want to open that door.

Good luck persuading Congress to abolish the First Amendment. And sorry that as a conservative, you can't support activist judges who rewrite the constitution instead of interpreting it.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:27 pm
Quote:

The 80% of muslims who lead rational lives would find other religions, and the rest would be well gotten rid of.


So if a person refused to change their religion they would be (well) "gotten rid of".

Exactly what does this mean?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:40 pm
Hey, it worked for Columbus.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:54 pm
I think its cute that Gunga hasnt voted in his own poll.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 01:59 pm
nimh wrote:
I think its cute that Gunga hasnt voted in his own poll.

That must be because he's so conflicted about where he stands. Don't pick on him for it.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 02:00 pm
nimh wrote:
I think its cute that Gunga hasnt voted in his own poll.


Neither have I. It's a stupid poll.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 06:50 pm
Thomas wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
The first ammendment does not cover shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theater when there is no fire

Yes. And whenever a hate preacher, islamic or not, creates a clear and present danger, the Feds can already bust him for that......


You'd never know it. In fact, I seriously doubt that any of the Malvo/Mohammed victims or their survivors know that or would believe it. You might want to try explaining it to them.
0 Replies
 
 

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